A "what if" question for critics.

[Sir]

When speaking about the Book of Mormon, some critics wonder why the golden plates, why they were taken, why we can't see them, etc. Libby has suggested that were the golden plates still around and people were able to see them, that would at least give her a reason to look into the LDS faith's claims closer, but she admits that it would not convince her to align with that faith as there are other issues she has about Mormonism.

So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

[Libby]

There is only One God.

"For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" (Isaiah 46:9)

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Libby

There is only One God.

"For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" (Isaiah 46:9)

***uming the BoM is what it says it is, and understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine, what other reason would you give to not be aligned with the LDS faith?

[Libby]

Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)

---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.

You can't show the bible to be God's word by saying that it contradicts.. James and Paul are teaching the same thing.. Paul in Eph 2:10 that after we are saved true faith works"

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And James saying that He can only see true faith in the works of the believer is complete unison in teaching:

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

How a church that denies that God is One, but teaches that there are many God's and three for this world can use James as authority is beyond ridiculous. James clearly teaches that God is One and not many..

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

bring your doctrine of God into the truth James taught and we will again talk about His Faith and works discussion.. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Richard

Andy, always with the label, good move dude.

I see you can't prove it either....but then we already know you won't even try because Mormonism has taken James out of context and that just proves how Biblically illiterate Mormon apologist are.

Andy

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.

The Book of Mormon is not in line with the Book of James. James tells us, just as the rest of the Bible that faith is the key to salvation. The Book of Mormon tells us that salvation comes only through doing all we can do, then Jesus will do the rest. Those are two different messages, IMO.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Book of Mormon is not in line with the Book of James. James tells us, just as the rest of the Bible that faith is the key to salvation. The Book of Mormon tells us that salvation comes only through doing all we can do, then Jesus will do the rest. Those are two different messages, IMO.

you got the BoM message wrong, but I'm more intrigued by your claim of james giving the key to salvation. Where does he say as much?

love,
stem

[Libby]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

you got the BoM message wrong, but I'm more intrigued by your claim of james giving the key to salvation. Where does he say as much?

love,
stem

I don't think I got the Book of Mormon message wrong.

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." -2 Nephi 25:23.

As for James, the theme is still faith. It is active or saving faith...faith that produces works....not dead faith that has no fruit. But, it is still by grace through faith that we are saved.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

"It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

Can you explain that verse for us Jeff so we can better understand it?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you explain that verse for us Jeff so we can better understand it?

---So you are admitting that you don't have a good understanding of the verse? I thought you were, for years, a TBM RM Eagle Scout. And yet you think that my understanding of the verse is superior to yours.

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)

This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Where was that atoning sacrifice at?

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Where was that atoning sacrifice at?

It began in the Garden of Gethsemane, and ended when he said "It is finished". Which is spelled out in the Gospels, and in almost ever hymnal in every Church, we sing of the Garden of Gethsemane.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

It began in the Garden of Gethsemane, and ended when he said "It is finished". Which is spelled out in the Gospels, and in almost ever hymnal in every Church, we sing of the Garden of Gethsemane.

Oh, it did? Is there anything in the Old or New Testament confirming what you just said.
It seem to me Paul, said, " I preach Christ crucified!"
I have never heard a Christian say, " I preach Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane."
Help us out here, and I"d be must appreciated.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Yes, I know that Mormons don't believe they can save themselves. I think I made a whole thread about that, here, somewhere. It's the faith/works thread.

The difference I see is that LDS doctrine includes works as a necessary part of salvation, whereas mainstream believes it is all the work of Jesus Christ (that he is working through us).

[neverending]

[QUOTE=The Pheonix;156113]This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Phoenix, what is needed is your definition of what salvation is to you. Would you please give me your definition?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine

Can I hear your explanation?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can I hear your explanation?

At this point I would prefer to see your response to the OP.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

At this point I would prefer to see your response to the OP.

And I would prefer to see your response to my question that you said would be so easy to explain away.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And I would prefer to see your response to my question that you said would be so easy to explain away.

I know you would. But I think in reading your posts you are one who usually likes to have people answery our questions before you attempt to answer theirs. It's seems common courtesy to address my question that was posed in the OP first before going down your own trail of questions.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Sir

***uming the BoM is what it says it is, and understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine, what other reason would you give to not be aligned with the LDS faith?

INCLUDING the d&c132 where it tells you that you can BECOME A GOD, or pgp abraham 4 where it says "they (that is, the Gods). . .?"

Sorry, but such reconcilliation is totally impossible. There CAN BE NO OTHER GODS and OTHER GODS at the same time.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Sir

***uming the BoM is what it says it is, and understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine, what other reason would you give to not be aligned with the LDS faith?

From the Book of Abraham, Chapter 4 (highlighting mine):


1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to p*** that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.

7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.

8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to p*** that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to p*** that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second time that they called night and day.

9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;

THE TRUTH REMAINS that there is only ONE REAL GOD EXTANT ANYWHERE according to the Bible (Isaiah 43:10, 44:9 etc etc etc) .

THE TRUTH remains that your mormon godlets are FALSE gods. . .making the religion that follows them a FALSE RELIGION..

[akaSeerone]

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

Let's start from the beginning of the BOM........."another testament of Jesus Christ.....That is a Biblical impossibility for several reasons, so anyone with any common Biblical sense knows that what is written inside is not inspired by God and has to be false/a lie.

And a short reading of the BOM bears that out.

Andy