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Thread: A "what if" question for critics.

  1. #51
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Yes, but I see that you need further explanation. Just as you said you cannot comment on anyone's experiences but your own, I used that answer to your question. You want me to explain why the Moroni promise failed in your life. I can't do that because I'm not you. I'm positive that anything I said about it from an outsiders point of view would simply be cast off as absurd and with the disclaimer that since I'm not you or that I wasn't there I really can't know; which is quite true.
    All Moroni's promise calls for is a "sincere heart, real intent, and holding faith in Christ". Here is Bill
    with all that even to the point of going on a mission and yet God doesn't see fit to give him a witness of the book's truth that is promised to such as he? I know the feeling.. That same question brought me to my branch President's office and further all the way to Elder McConkie's office.. All for not.. I wanted that witness as much as any man and it was denied me as it was Bill.. Know why? Because it's not real it is a false promise!!! IHS jim

  2. #52
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    All Moroni's promise calls for is a "sincere heart, real intent, and holding faith in Christ". Here is Bill
    with all that even to the point of going on a mission and yet God doesn't see fit to give him a witness of the book's truth that is promised to such as he? I know the feeling.. That same question brought me to my branch President's office and further all the way to Elder McConkie's office.. All for not.. I wanted that witness as much as any man and it was denied me as it was Bill.. Know why? Because it's not real it is a false promise!!! IHS jim
    Your response is not unexpected considering were you to believe the promise was fulfilled you would not be in the position you are in now. Notice how you are claiming Billyray had everything needed but it was God that failed him? I think that is the reason neither billy nor myself can honestly argue against the experiences of others since we really, if we are honest with ourselves, do not know the reality of the way things are in the other person's life.

    But the promise was fulfilled for me. Know why? Because it is a real and true promise. (See what I did there?)

  3. #53
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Yes, but I see that you need further explanation. Just as you said you cannot comment on anyone's experiences but your own, I used that answer to your question. You want me to explain why the Moroni promise failed in your life. I can't do that because I'm not you. I'm positive that anything I said about it from an outsiders point of view would simply be cast off as absurd and with the disclaimer that since I'm not you or that I wasn't there I really can't know; which is quite true.
    Moroni 10
    3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.


    Can you give me some possibilities of why I did not receive an answer based on the promise above?

  4. #54
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't think I had a firmly held belief about it, but I did think that God's "realm" was more than just this planet.

    So, what do you believe?
    Bumping this for Sir.

  5. #55
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Bumping this for Sir.
    Yes, God's realm is more than just planet earth. Read in the Pearl of Great Price for more details.

  6. #56
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Yes, God's realm is more than just planet earth. Read in the Pearl of Great Price for more details.
    Can you give me something a little more specific?

  7. #57
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Moroni 10
    3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.


    Can you give me some possibilities of why I did not receive an answer based on the promise above?
    Sure.

    1) You did receive answers, but in the loss of your testimony you have also lost that ***urance and are now left to deny what you once had.

    2) You did not have the sincerity you thought you had.

    3) You received an answer but you did not recognize it as the answer.

    4) You expected an answer on your timeline instead of waiting on God's timeline.

    Now will you tall me why it is that I did receive a fulfillment of the promise?
    Last edited by Sir; 10-17-2010 at 11:18 AM.

  8. #58
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Your response is not unexpected considering were you to believe the promise was fulfilled you would not be in the position you are in now. Notice how you are claiming Billyray had everything needed but it was God that failed him? I think that is the reason neither billy nor myself can honestly argue against the experiences of others since we really, if we are honest with ourselves, do not know the reality of the way things are in the other person's life.

    But the promise was fulfilled for me. Know why? Because it is a real and true promise. (See what I did there?)
    If it was fulfilled for you and the god of mormonism is God, then the promise would be fulfilled for all who put the BofM to that test.. Jesus promises us that who ever believes in His would be given eternal life.. I have yet to see a person who has faith in the Jesus of the Bible tell me that they are unsure of their eternal destiny.. I have yet to meet a Mormon that is sure of salvation in God's best heaven.. A promise from God is imputable.. Either the promise in Moroni 10:4 is of God and available to all who meet the qualification or it's not a promise from God.. In this case it wasn't given as it was promised so it is NOT OF GOD!

    You have now heard from two of us that read the BofM seriously, were solid members of the church
    and really wanted the BofM to be what it says it is but when tested it failed.. Since those early days I have learned about many more problem than just a broken promise.. For-instance, The timing for the BofM is all wrong.. It couldn't have been completely translated until six months after it was published.. If you want to know more about that just ask.. IHS jim

  9. #59
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Sure.

    1) You did receive answers, but in the loss of your testimony you have also lost that ***urance and are now left to deny what you once had.

    2) You did not have the sincerity you thought you had.

    3) You received an answer but you did not recognize it as the answer.

    4) You expected an answer on your timeline instead of waiting on God's timeline.

    Now will you tall me why it is that I did receive a fulfillment of the promise?
    If I received an answer but did not know or perceive it as an answer, was that really an answer? Doesn't God know how strong the witness has to be for me to perceive that answer? I can tell you that I DID NOT receive an answer that was perceivable to me and God would now that.

    As for your other point how long do you think that I have to wait for an answer? one day, one week, one year, 10 years, 50 years? I have had LDS tell me that I needed to wait 20 plus years for an answer? Is that reasonable?

  10. #60
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Sure.

    1) You did receive answers, but in the loss of your testimony you have also lost that ***urance and are now left to deny what you once had.

    2) You did not have the sincerity you thought you had.

    3) You received an answer but you did not recognize it as the answer.

    4) You expected an answer on your timeline instead of waiting on God's timeline.

    Now will you tall me why it is that I did receive a fulfillment of the promise?
    Elder McConkie told me the same thing at least about the time line..He could see how much I wanted it to be true and he told me that.. He said stay close to the church and it would come.. I followed his advice until the truth of Jesus came to me.. Then the error or mormonism and the reason the promise was denied was made evident.. IT IS NOT OF GOD.. IHS jim

  11. #61
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If I received an answer but did not know or perceive it as an answer, was that really an answer? Doesn't God know how strong the witness has to be for me to perceive that answer? I can tell you that I DID NOT receive an answer that was perceivable to me and God would now that.

    As for your other point how long do you think that I have to wait for an answer? one day, one week, one year, 10 years, 50 years? I have had LDS tell me that I needed to wait 20 plus years for an answer? Is that reasonable?
    You are asking me to psycho-****yze your situation, which is silly since I do not know you or your personal situation. I think you understand that as you already explained that you would not comment on other people's personal experiences. I tried to not speak for your experience and yet you demanded I do it. Now that I have commented there really is nothing left for me to say on it.

  12. #62
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    If it was fulfilled for you and the god of mormonism is God, then the promise would be fulfilled for all who put the BofM to that test.. Jesus promises us that who ever believes in His would be given eternal life.. I have yet to see a person who has faith in the Jesus of the Bible tell me that they are unsure of their eternal destiny.. I have yet to meet a Mormon that is sure of salvation in God's best heaven.. A promise from God is imputable.. Either the promise in Moroni 10:4 is of God and available to all who meet the qualification or it's not a promise from God.. In this case it wasn't given as it was promised so it is NOT OF GOD!

    You have now heard from two of us that read the BofM seriously, were solid members of the church
    and really wanted the BofM to be what it says it is but when tested it failed.. Since those early days I have learned about many more problem than just a broken promise.. For-instance, The timing for the BofM is all wrong.. It couldn't have been completely translated until six months after it was published.. If you want to know more about that just ask.. IHS jim
    Your experiences do not cons***ute what is truth or not. Just because you and billy believe the Moroni promise is false doesn't make it so. When you tall a person searching for the truth that they just need to ask God and he will show them where to find it, and they feel that they have asked but have not received an answer, you don't claim that God was simply lying or that his gospel is untrue, do you?

  13. #63
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Can you give me something a little more specific?
    I thought you were once LDS. A simple reading of Abraham should clarify it for you.

  14. #64
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    You are asking me to psycho-****yze your situation, which is silly since I do not know you or your personal situation.
    My Requirements
    1. Read these things
    2. Ponder it in your hearts
    3. Ask with a sincere heart
    4. With real intent
    5. Having faith in Christ,

    LDS god's promise
    1. He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    I followed the above requirements to the letter but after doing my part the LDS god did not come through on his part and manifest the truth of it unto me. And IF I did receive this witness I certainly wouldn't be on these boards denying it.

  15. #65
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    My Requirements
    1. Read these things
    2. Ponder it in your hearts
    3. Ask with a sincere heart
    4. With real intent
    5. Having faith in Christ,

    LDS god's promise
    1. He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    I followed the above requirements to the letter but after doing my part the LDS god did not come through on his part and manifest the truth of it unto me. And IF I did receive this witness I certainly wouldn't be on these boards denying it.
    What would you say to your non-christian friend that you have shared the gospel with when he tells you that he doesn't feel like God is answering his prayers? Or what do you tell them when they question why "your God" allows people's lives to be ripped apart, or killed, etc.?

    Again, your trying to discard the LDS beliefs simply because you feel your experience was an***hetical to what was promised in Moroni. And you simply do this based on your own experience without acknowledging there are many like myself who have had the opposite experience as you.

    So you'll just have to come to your own conclusion of why you feel the way you do.

  16. #66
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    I thought you were once LDS. A simple reading of Abraham should clarify it for you.
    I surely was, but it's been awhile. Plus, The Pearl of Great Price includes the Book of Moses, Book of Abraham and some of the JST Bible, so that's quite a lot to look through.

    Why don't you just tell me in your own words.

  17. #67
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Again, your trying to discard the LDS beliefs simply because you feel your experience was an***hetical to what was promised in Moroni.
    I agree with you that it casts doubt on Mormonism because the promise failed. If a person follows the promise as directed there is no reason that the person should not receive an answer to his prayer as promised.

  18. #68
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I agree with you that it casts doubt on Mormonism because the promise failed. If a person follows the promise as directed there is no reason that the person should not receive an answer to his prayer as promised.
    I didn't say it casts doubt on Mormonism, so you cannot logically agree with me on that.

    Now that I answered your question, answer mine:

    Explain why the promise worked for me and other faithful LDS members.

  19. #69
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I surely was, but it's been awhile. Plus, The Pearl of Great Price includes the Book of Moses, Book of Abraham and some of the JST Bible, so that's quite a lot to look through.

    Why don't you just tell me in your own words.
    I just told you that reading Abraham should help clarify, so you don't need to look through the whole PoGP.

    Scripture is much better (and more authoritative) than my own words.

  20. #70
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Explain why the promise worked for me and other faithful LDS members.
    Why did it work for you? I don't know.

  21. #71
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    I just told you that reading Abraham should help clarify, so you don't need to look through the whole PoGP.

    Scripture is much better (and more authoritative) than my own words.
    Do you have a specific scripture reference? I'm not going to read the whole Book of Abraham (even though I realize it's only five chapters). I have given you specific scripture references for why I believe what I do.

  22. #72
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why did it work for you? I don't know.
    That's not a very honest discussion, IMO. You asked repeatedly for an explanation from me even after I agreed with you that I don't know you or your experience. But I at least offered my reasons that it could be.

    And now when you are asked to reciprocate the question you decline to offer your reasons.

    Why do you demand LDS to ****yze your "failed" experience but you refuse to do the same when the tables are turned?

  23. #73
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    That's not a very honest discussion, IMO. You asked repeatedly for an explanation from me even after I agreed with you that I don't know you or your experience. But I at least offered my reasons that it could be.
    I thought that my answer was completely honest. If you tell me how God answered you prayer then I might be able to provide more insight.

  24. #74
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Do you have a specific scripture reference? I'm not going to read the whole Book of Abraham (even though I realize it's only five chapters). I have given you specific scripture references for why I believe what I do.
    You don't have to read it. I'm not forcing you to.

  25. #75
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    You don't have to read it. I'm not forcing you to.
    I would like to read it. Why don't you want to give me a scripture reference? I don't think that's too much to ask.

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