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Thread: A "what if" question for critics.

  1. #1
    Sir
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    Default A "what if" question for critics.

    When speaking about the Book of Mormon, some critics wonder why the golden plates, why they were taken, why we can't see them, etc. Libby has suggested that were the golden plates still around and people were able to see them, that would at least give her a reason to look into the LDS faith's claims closer, but she admits that it would not convince her to align with that faith as there are other issues she has about Mormonism.

    So here is the question for non-LDS:

    If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

  2. #2
    Libby
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    There is only One God.

    "For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" (Isaiah 46:9)

  3. #3
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    There is only One God.

    "For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" (Isaiah 46:9)
    ***uming the BoM is what it says it is, and understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine, what other reason would you give to not be aligned with the LDS faith?

  4. #4
    Libby
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    Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)

  5. #5
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)
    ---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

    I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.

  6. #6
    akaSeerone
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    If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?
    Let's start from the beginning of the BOM........."another testament of Jesus Christ.....That is a Biblical impossibility for several reasons, so anyone with any common Biblical sense knows that what is written inside is not inspired by God and has to be false/a lie.

    And a short reading of the BOM bears that out.

    Andy

  7. #7
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    When speaking about the Book of Mormon, some critics wonder why the golden plates, why they were taken, why we can't see them, etc. Libby has suggested that were the golden plates still around and people were able to see them, that would at least give her a reason to look into the LDS faith's claims closer, but she admits that it would not convince her to align with that faith as there are other issues she has about Mormonism.

    So here is the question for non-LDS:

    If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?
    If they were here and were authenticated as the real deal and could be translated into a message that could be seen as a close translation for that given by Smith ... I WOULD BE FIRST IN LINE.. But Smith couldn't do that with the BofA why would I hold faith that he would do so with the Gold plates.. Even the "inspired" version of the Bible has no support in the m****cripts we have in the original language.. Time after time his work as seen to be more and more nothing but the imaginations of his own heart.. That is very clear in the BofM.. Lehi's dream is a prime example of that accusation. IHS jim

  8. #8
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

    I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.
    You can't show the bible to be God's word by saying that it contradicts.. James and Paul are teaching the same thing.. Paul in Eph 2:10 that after we are saved true faith works"
    Eph 2:10
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    And James saying that He can only see true faith in the works of the believer is complete unison in teaching:
    James 2:18
    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    How a church that denies that God is One, but teaches that there are many God's and three for this world can use James as authority is beyond ridiculous. James clearly teaches that God is One and not many..
    James 2:19
    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    bring your doctrine of God into the truth James taught and we will again talk about His Faith and works discussion.. IHS jim

  9. #9
    akaSeerone
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Andy, always with the label, good move dude.
    I see you can't prove it either....but then we already know you won't even try because Mormonism has taken James out of context and that just proves how Biblically illiterate Mormon apologist are.

    Andy

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    Let's start from the beginning of the BOM........."another testament of Jesus Christ.....That is a Biblical impossibility for several reasons,
    Andy
    Really!
    How about just giving one reason?

  11. #11
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    If they were here and were authenticated as the real deal and could be translated into a message that could be seen as a close translation for that given by Smith ... I WOULD BE FIRST IN LINE.. But Smith couldn't do that with the BofA why would I hold faith that he would do so with the Gold plates.. Even the "inspired" version of the Bible has no support in the m****cripts we have in the original language.. Time after time his work as seen to be more and more nothing but the imaginations of his own heart.. That is very clear in the BofM.. Lehi's dream is a prime example of that accusation. IHS jim
    So for you, there is nothing else that keeps you from aligning with the LDS church but your belief that the Book of Mormon isn't what it purports to be. Everything else is okay. Is this your position?

  12. #12
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    Let's start from the beginning of the BOM........."another testament of Jesus Christ.....That is a Biblical impossibility for several reasons, so anyone with any common Biblical sense knows that what is written inside is not inspired by God and has to be false/a lie.

    And a short reading of the BOM bears that out.

    Andy
    I second theway's request for an example of your charge. Saying that it is a 'biblical impossibility' to be another testament of Jesus Chirst is a pretty definitive charge; leaving no room for error. Please explain how this is impossible. Also, please give an example from the short reading of the BoM that you claim makes your case.

  13. #13
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    I second theway's request for an example of your charge. Saying that it is a 'biblical impossibility' to be another testament of Jesus Chirst is a pretty definitive charge; leaving no room for error. Please explain how this is impossible. Also, please give an example from the short reading of the BoM that you claim makes your case.
    ---I would enjoy reading that too, so go for it Andy! You can do it....right?

  14. #14
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

    I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.
    The Book of Mormon is not in line with the Book of James. James tells us, just as the rest of the Bible that faith is the key to salvation. The Book of Mormon tells us that salvation comes only through doing all we can do, then Jesus will do the rest. Those are two different messages, IMO.

  15. #15
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    The Book of Mormon is not in line with the Book of James. James tells us, just as the rest of the Bible that faith is the key to salvation. The Book of Mormon tells us that salvation comes only through doing all we can do, then Jesus will do the rest. Those are two different messages, IMO.
    you got the BoM message wrong, but I'm more intrigued by your claim of james giving the key to salvation. Where does he say as much?

    love,
    stem

  16. #16
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    you got the BoM message wrong, but I'm more intrigued by your claim of james giving the key to salvation. Where does he say as much?

    love,
    stem
    I don't think I got the Book of Mormon message wrong.

    "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." -2 Nephi 25:23.

    As for James, the theme is still faith. It is active or saving faith...faith that produces works....not dead faith that has no fruit. But, it is still by grace through faith that we are saved.

    "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"

  17. #17
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine
    Can I hear your explanation?

  18. #18
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?
    Can you explain that verse for us Jeff so we can better understand it?

  19. #19
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can I hear your explanation?
    At this point I would prefer to see your response to the OP.

  20. #20
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    At this point I would prefer to see your response to the OP.
    And I would prefer to see your response to my question that you said would be so easy to explain away.

  21. #21
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    When speaking about the Book of Mormon, some critics wonder why the golden plates, why they were taken, why we can't see them, etc. Libby has suggested that were the golden plates still around and people were able to see them, that would at least give her a reason to look into the LDS faith's claims closer, but she admits that it would not convince her to align with that faith as there are other issues she has about Mormonism.

    So here is the question for non-LDS:

    If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?
    How about, its total lack of conforming to biblical truth?

  22. #22
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    How about, its total lack of conforming to biblical truth?
    So then why complain about not having the gold plates, you would still find issue with them, even if that solved one of the claims by Anti's that the plates could not have ever existed, you know things like "reformed egyptian writing",
    proof that writing were preserved on metal plates, the weight of the plates, etc, etc.

    At least some of the criticisms would be proved or at least discounted and your talking points would have to adjust to something else if proven wrong.
    RJ.

  23. #23
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    So for you, there is nothing else that keeps you from aligning with the LDS church but your belief that the Book of Mormon isn't what it purports to be. Everything else is okay. Is this your position?
    No because Smith lied about the BofM he lied about many others things as well.. Here is an example of his lies from the History of the Church Vol 6:
    What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

    Is that speaking in the name of God? He was speaking to the Church over the pulpit when he gave those remarks. How can we trust a spiritual leader when he lies so easily about his own actions in his life?

    Sorry but one realization of Smith lying has brought everything else he taught into question. He has proven himself time and again to be a false prophet and a false teacher. Look at D&C 87 and tell me that the Civil War was the beginning of all other Wars.. Tell me that England got involved and called on other nations until the whole world was involved in a war that started in South Carolina.. It was a false prophecy.. Smith got it all wrong.. Remember what Sir Winston Churchill said about fighting WW2? He said "Give us the tools and we will finish the ***".. That doesn't sound like England was calling the US into the war.. Japan did that om Dec 7 1941, not England.. And that great war had nothing to do with the US Civil war.. Smith prophecy was FALSE, he stand condemned by the doctrine Moses was given to identify a true prophet given in:
    Deut 18:20-22
    But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
    And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
    When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.


    There are others, in fact the only one he came close to being right about is the prophecy about his death.. Nothing else when looked at in the light it was given was true prophecy.. Sorry but Smith did it to himself. If anyone would look at his works with open eyes they would see his fraud and his lies.. I will pray that your eyes open to truth.. IHS jim

  24. #24
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    So then why complain about not having the gold plates, you would still find issue with them, even if that solved one of the claims by Anti's that the plates could not have ever existed, you know things like "reformed egyptian writing",
    proof that writing were preserved on metal plates, the weight of the plates, etc, etc.


    Where have I ever complained about not having gold plates? I simply answered Sir's question.

    At least some of the criticisms would be proved or at least discounted and your talking points would have to adjust to something else if proven wrong.
    RJ.
    And yet, Chuck, there are no gold plates, and the criticisms remain legitimate.

  25. #25
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can you explain that verse for us Jeff so we can better understand it?
    ---So you are admitting that you don't have a good understanding of the verse? I thought you were, for years, a TBM RM Eagle Scout. And yet you think that my understanding of the verse is superior to yours.

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