A "what if" question for critics.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154936]Okay, God calls them gods. Glad you acknowledge that. But then you say that he denies that "Gods" exist---does he deny that "gods" exist?

The word elohim is used in 1 Kings 11:33, where it describes Chemosh "the god of Moab", or to demons, seraphim, and other supernatural beings, to the spirits of the dead brought up at the behest of King Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13, and even to kings and prophets (Exodus 4:16). Are demons gods? maybe the kings or prophets? No? Then the word is a ***le given not just to God but to power men and even devils.. God does not deny the existence of such beings.. He does however deny the existence of other Gods, Chemosh to name one (Isaiah 44:8).

And if these "rulers and magistrates exist--do they exist in the hereafter?

Have you read the whole Psalm? It clearly say that these elohims will die like men.. Why would it say that? Even though these rulers and magistrates were mortal men, death will put them back in their place.. They will die like any other man.. Will they exist is the hereafter? Yes either in glory with Jesus or in the Lake of Fire depending on their faith. Just like all other men.. These of Psalm 82 I would guess will have trouble gaining life.. Their works support disbelief..

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Why do you think Christ tells his apostles and disciples that they will receive a crown --or that he apostles will be twelve judges? Isn't that the *** of a magistrate?

Yes, why would you think it isn't?

And why does Genesis start with "elohim" then to you?

Maybe because GOD is the beginning and the end.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Didn't Jesus claim to have a God?
Didn't Jesus also imply that the God of Israel was Jesus Himself?
Doesn't that make Jesus a polytheist by your dictionary definition?

Jesus has two natures in that He is fully God and fully man, in this role he subjected himself to the Law and the Father--living a perfect life ultimately offering himself to be a perfect sacrifice for our sins. But Jesus never taught that there were many gods nor did he teach that he was a separated and distinct god from the Father like mormons teach. So no Jesus is not a polytheist.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I think I am no more a polytheist than Jesus is.

Do you believe that there are many separate and distinct gods?

[James Banta]

[Snow Patrol;154507]How can you honestly say you take yourself out of the decision?

You read the Bible and come to a conclusion on what it says. Someone else reads the same Bible and comes to a different conclusion. So person A gets visited by a being and decides that what the being says is incorrect based on his conclusions. Person B gets visited and decides what is said is correct based on his different conclusions. You base your decisions on whether this being is good or not is determined by YOUR understanding of the Bible.

How did Saul know he was visited by an angel and not the devil?

I can do so by just believing what the Bible teaches.. As an example when Jesus taught Nicodemus saying:

John 3:14-16
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

First thing you must understand is the reference Jesus was using. That of the fiery serpents that were running though the camp of the people.. Who ever was bitten by one was doomed unless there looked up at the brazen serpent on the staff. Their faith in God shown though believing what was taught to them through Moses saved them.. Just like that we look up to Jesus lifted up to save all who believe in Him.. Is there a different meaning that any believer holds? NO!! In these few short verses the whole Gospel message is made known. Every Christian believer I have ever met in person or online believes that message.. Yet you say we all come to different conclusions.. You are in error.. Those that believe the Bible is God's word trust what it teaches.. Even Saul on the Road to Damascus studied to know that what he heard on that journey was the truth. He was the one that said:

2 Tim 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Saul was studied in the word He had read Isaiah and after hearing the voice of His Lord the truth roared into him that Jesus was the person the p***age was specking of.. Saul went into blindness as Jesus unlocked his mind, Paul awakened as his sight was restored.. So how did He know, because of the scripture.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Then Libby, do you believe that if we become one with God that we will have His soul or spirit? How do we (followers) become ONE as they are ONE? I think this is the key to understanding how The Father and The Son are ONE.

I believe it is purely love that is the "glue".

When I was LDS, I had this discussion with a mentor of mine, about how the "sealing" process, in the Temple, actually works. I told her, that I had a feeling that, eventually, we would all be sealed together, as one huge family of God. She shook her head, yes, and said, I think you're on the right track, with that idea.

So, I don't know details about how it will all work...I just have a "sense" of it. The thing that binds, and makes us one, is love...our love for Christ and for one another.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

I believe it is purely love that is the "glue".

When I was LDS, I had this discussion with a mentor of mine, about how the "sealing" process, in the Temple, actually works. I told her, that I had a feeling that, eventually, we would all be sealed together, as one huge family of God. She shook her head, yes, and said, I think you're on the right track, with that idea.

So, I don't know details about how it will all work...I just have a "sense" of it. The thing that binds, and makes us one, is love...our love for Christ and for one another.

Well, maybe, but I believe all the good lookin young women will be sealed my closely with Joseph Smith jr.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Trinity doctrine is kind of difficult to understand, especially coming from a Mormon background (which I do). But, I think it is about significantly more than simply being in agreement with one another (one in thought and purpose). I think of it as sharing the same soul or spirit. The essence is One (not just thoughts and purpose, but the very essence).

The Bible seems to indicate that we will become one with God, as well, if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Galations 3

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I believe that "oneness" is at the very soul or spirit level.

Actually Libby, I can conceptualize the idea of being "the same soul or spirit"--or even "the essence of One"---I can think about this in terms of many things---being "one" with everything so to speak.

I can also even conceptualize the idea of being one with God, as you believe---where we become this blended essence idea. The problem is, I just don't see it in the Bible. I would if I believed in the Old Testament alone---but after Christ came, to me--this understanding gave way to what Christ taught. He showed us exactly who God the Father is, what He is like, how to be one with Him and with the Father. It took away the "mystic" type side of it and made it very real.

I don't know what Christ (or God the Father) could have done to make it more clear. When Christ taught us--not my will, but thine---he didn't show us this same "essence"--but actual submission, real submission. When Christ was resurrected, he didn't come back as a spirit---and surely he could have--but he said, feel me, see me eat. How much more plain could he have made it?

So, for me, it isn't that I can't wrap my brain around this 3 in 1 concept, but more that when I read the Bible, it is there in the OT, but dissolves in the New Testament as Christ actually showed us exactly what was meant in the OT.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, for me, it isn't that I can't wrap my brain around this 3 in 1 concept, but more that when I read the Bible, it is there in the OT, but dissolves in the New Testament as Christ actually showed us exactly what was meant in the OT.

I am not sure what you mean by "dissolves in the New Testament". When God enters His own creation in the person of Jesus (100% God and 100% man) and places himself under the law and obedience to His own commandments the text has to be different when compared to the time prior to Him entering in the form of a human. The problem BigJ is that you have to twist and ignore all of the verses that clearly state that there is only ONE. That is one major distinction between mormonism and Christianity in that the former is a polytheistic whereas the later in monotheistic.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure what you mean by "dissolves in the New Testament". When God enters His own creation in the person of Jesus (100% God and 100% man) and places himself under the law and obedience to His own commandments the text has to be different when compared to the time prior to Him entering in the form of a human. The problem BigJ is that you have to twist and ignore all of the verses that clearly state that there is only ONE. That is one major distinction between mormonism and Christianity in that the former is a polytheistic whereas the later in monotheistic.

When I say "dissolves in the New Testament"---I mean that any misunderstanding that believers had about God in the Old Testament should have been clearly understood by what Christ taught and showed in the New Testament. There were many Jews that could not grasp the concept that God could have a Son and there are many Christians who can grasp that God's Son showed us exactly who the Father is---that His very purpose was to glorify the Father (glorify means to pure, whole truth that can be seen plainly and clearly.)

Where does it say that God enters his own creation in the person Jesus? He says "behold my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Christ also states, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

I am quoting the New Testament---this seems pretty plain to me. Unless of course, you think that in order to be one with God and Christ, you somehow meld and lose your own consciousness and that we have to do that to believe that God the Father gave His Only Begotten Son for us. Of this I can't even comprehend---how do you die, overcome death, be resurrected, have your own body, and be "one' in God the Father and Jesus Christ as they are one....but still have this "enter [your] own creation" stuff?

If that is not clear enough, listen to what Christ says to Mary after his resurrection: "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

In other words, His Father is our Father and His God is our God. He speaks nothing of his person being his essence entering his own creation. He speaks plainly. He speaks clearly. He glorifies the Father. He shows us the majesty and awesomeness of who His Father is by what He did and who He is. He speaks plainly that He submitted to the Father completely and utterly and asks us to do the same.

Speaking of this, Happy Easter--where we celebrate the resurrection of Christ, who came in a body, and showed himself to his disciples.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Where does it say that God enters his own creation in the person Jesus? )

In the beginning of the Book of John...

[Apologette]

Why repost a thread put up by the stalker, Sir, who is Apollos on CARM, and copied messages between Christians and posted them here?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Why repost a thread put up by the stalker, Sir, who is Apollos on CARM, and copied messages between Christians and posted them here?

why not?

There is no problem with going over topics that are here regardless of who started them or last posted on them.

And if any person thinks they are interesting, and might be something they have a view they wish to share?>>>>>, Go For It!....

Thats what they are here for!

Use them to inspire some new chances to share views and ask questions or challenge false ***umptions!

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

why not?

There is no problem with going over topics that are here regardless of who started them or last posted on them.

And if any person thinks they are interesting, and might be something they have a view they wish to share?>>>>>, Go For It!....

Thats what they are here for!

Use them to inspire some new chances to share views and ask questions or challenge false ***umptions!

Put up something Christian, and don't rework evil!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Put up something Christian, and don't rework evil!

It is Christian to hold total faith in God.. By that I believe that he is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. If He is Omniscient he knows all things past, present, and future.. He knows who will believe and who will doubt.. He knows who will be saved and who will be ****ed. That Omniscience gives Him the power, authority, and the moral right, to p*** judgement on us even before we were born.. The only reason He doesn't is because of His grace. That foreknowledge is our predestination.. Like it or not to all men that is our predestination.. It isn't preciousness it is based on God's knowledge and wisdom..

Mormonism god is not that powerful. He knows the past and the present but they teach he is subject to time the same as we are. He is a weakling, he doesn't even have creative power. He is merely a good builder.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Put up something Christian, and don't rework evil!

I think its a great idea to go over the listed topics looking for the things that spark interest.

I love the idea that there is a huge history of different topics that we can pick from.

Its the reason the Jill allows so many topics to be saved here....its for the future.....it's because you never know when someone might read something of interest and that sparks a deeper search in the Scriptures for truth.

So I tell people to be bold with their views!

if you see something that you have a question about, or want to talk about, there is a good chance that this may be the Holy Spirit prompting you in a new direction!......

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

In the beginning of the Book of John...

I disagree that the beginning of the book of John undoes what Christ taught us directly. In fact, if you look at John, in light of what Christ directly, it makes it clear that Christ did not teach that "God enters His own creation in the person of Jesus." John speaks of the Godhead and how it works. John does not say that Christ is not the Son of God, nor undoes anything that Christ taught us of His relationship (and our relationship) to His Father.

So, I originally posted to this thread because of this comment

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

the point im making is that we are to always test by scriptures.....

always.....

and we are not be afraid that just because it might take a while....or....just because not everyone will agree.

thats what I am saying

My point is---I do test the scriptures---I do read them, I do study them--and in the end, I do not see the Trinity concept. I look at history and the concept of the trinity, to me, is the creation of men. It is not found in the Bible--not at least, as explained by the Nicene creed.

But once again, this is why it is so important to have the witness of the Holy Ghost who teaches us and becomes a second witness to the Bible. This is why I have what I do in my signature.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Mormonism god is not that powerful. He knows the past and the present but they teach he is subject to time the same as we are. He is a weakling, he doesn't even have creative power. He is merely a good builder.. IHS jim

So very untrue. I hope those who come here to learn of what Mormons believe will actually go to the source (LDS.org or Mormon.org) and see what we believe.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Where does it say that God enters his own creation in the person Jesus?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

In verse one it says "the word was God". Who is this referring to?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

In other words, His Father is our Father and His God is our God.

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Who is "my God" referring to in verse 28"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

There were many Jews that could not grasp the concept that God could have a Son

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Can you tell me who this is referring to in verse 6?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The first "hint" of the trinity did not come about until the Nicene creed (about 300 AD)---which is why you will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.

Lets see, you're questioning something that came about oh 300 years after the death of Christ, but totally believe a book by Joseph Smith jr. Some 1500 years after the Nicene Creed.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

In verse one it says "the word was God". Who is this referring to?

Jesus Christ.

As I said, to me, this verse teaches us of the Godhead. It does not undo what we learn about God the Father from Christ Himself and the relationship Christ has with God the Father (being His Son.)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Can you tell me who this is referring to in verse 6?

Yes, it makes so much sense now---but the Jews did not see it. And yes, we also call Jesus Christ the Everlasting Father---but this does not mean that Christ is his own Father, it means we become Christ's children when take on His name.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Lets see, you're questioning something that came about oh 300 years after the death of Christ, but totally believe a book by Joseph Smith jr. Some 1500 years after the Nicene Creed.

Yes, as the Nicene creed was a creed made by men and Joseph Smith received revelation. That revelation is completely congruent with the teachings of the Bible and makes it so much clearer. We don't have to try to make God and abstract nonsensical being, but rather--we can understand that we truly are made in his likeness and image and that we can see this clearly by understanding who Jesus Christ is and His relationship to the Father and to us.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154931]Hmmmm, but the 12 apostles are there---the celestial and terrestrial kingdom are there.

Look at who can be one of the 12.. Judas was replaced only because he gave up his apostleship with the denial of Jesus. He needed to be replaced. Then he was replaced with a man that had been with Jesus for His full mortal ministry. Not one of the other were replaced because not one of them lost their apostleship. The subject of replacing them is not found anyplace in scripture. There were still apostles living when Peter was martyred. Why wasn't he replaced? Because Peter is still an Apostle of the Lord Jesus. So much for you complaint about the 12..

Do you know the meaning of the words celestial and terrestrial? They are never called kingdoms anywhere on the Bible. Since when did bodies become kingdoms? The LDS see the words celestial and terrestrial, ignore what the Bible is saying, and create a whole new and different meaning for them.. Celestial means heavenly.. Terrestrial means earthly.. We have an earthly Body, in the resurrection we will have a heavenly body.. But I wouldn't expect you to actually know or understand that..

The concept of the trinity is not found in the Bible. As I have so clearly explained, God's likeness and image can be seen clearly in His Son Jesus Christ---which you deny. I accept that there are three persons---just as you do. But I do not accept that Christ is not a separate being from the Father--with his own consciousness and will. It is so plain that Christ says "not MY will, but THINE".

How can you read the Bible and not understand that there is one God? NOT three Gods.. Then along comes Joseph Smith and the teaching of the one true God is out the window.. God told Moses that He, the Lord our God, is One LORD.. To Isaiah God said that "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Savior." Then Jesus confirmed the word given to Moses that The Lord our God in one LORD.. Still in all that Jesus calls The Father God (John 20:17), Jesus is refereed to as God in John 1:1, and the Holy Spirit is called God by the Apostle Peter (Acts 5:3-4).. Does this erase Jesus telling us that God is One Lord? There has to be a way for it all to be truth, that is found in the doctrine of the Trinity..

Sadly, Nicene, I believe, in an attempt to keep this type of debate at bay--came up with a definition of God to try to keep every one happy--three persons, one being. But that idea is not found in the Bible. What is explained is that they are one. But Christ asks us to be One as He is. He explains couples as "one" flesh....but we all understand that we are still our own person with our own thoughts and wills.

The Nicene Creed is no way changes the Fact that the Lord our God is One Lord.. Smith's teaching that we have three Gods fractures the teachings of Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.. LDS teachings that there are three Gods is totally ANTI Bible.. The doctrine of the Trinity agrees with it 100%. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Look at who can be one of the 12.. Judas was replaced only because he gave up his apostleship with the denial of Jesus. He needed to be replaced. Then he was replaced with a man that had been with Jesus for His full mortal ministry. Not one of the other were replaced because not one of them lost their apostleship. The subject of replacing them is not found anyplace in scripture. There were still apostles living when Peter was martyred. Why wasn't he replaced? Because Peter is still an Apostle of the Lord Jesus. So much for you complaint about the 12..

Actually, it is. (And it is one of the first things they did after they lost Judas.)

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Do you know the meaning of the words celestial and terrestrial? They are never called kingdoms anywhere on the Bible. Since when did bodies become kingdoms? The LDS see the words celestial and terrestrial, ignore what the Bible is saying, and create a whole new and different meaning for them.. Celestial means heavenly.. Terrestrial means earthly.. We have an earthly Body, in the resurrection we will have a heavenly body.. But I wouldn't expect you to actually know or understand that..

When we are resurrected, our soul (body and spirit) will rise with the glory it has become while on earth. The "kingdom" is only a distinction of what type of people will be there.

How can you read the Bible and not understand that there is one God? NOT three Gods.. then along comes Joseph Smith and the teaching of the one true God is out the window.. God told Moses that He, the Lord our God, is One LORD.. To Isaiah God said that "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Savior." Then Jesus confirmed the word given to Moses that The Lord our God in one LORD.. Still in all that Jesus calls The Father God (John 20:17), Jesus is refereed to as God in John 1:1, and the Holy Spirit is called God by the Apostle Peter (Acts 5:3-4).. Does this erase Jesus telling us that God is One Lord? There has to be a way for it all to be truth, that is found in the doctrine of the Trinity..

I completely understand what it means to be One God. I also understand what it means to be one with God and one with my spouse. Joseph Smith did not throw this teaching out the window, but made what was plain and simple, plain and simple again. Christ taught very clearly who He is in relationship to the Father as well as who we are. There is a way for all of it to be true--just as you said, but not Nicene's way.

The Nicene Creed is no way changes the Fact that the Lord our God is One Lord.. Smith teaching That we have three Gods. Fractures the teaching of Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.. LDS teachings that there are three Gods is totally ANTI Bible.. The doctrine of the Trinity agrees with it 100. IHS jim

What Joseph Smith revealed is not anti-Bible, it is exactly what the Bible teaches. The Nicene creed undermines what Christ taught us about being one with Him as He is one with God the Father. It undermines our relationship with Him because, by the Nicene creed, we lose our understanding of who God is to us and why Christ calls him His Father and Our Father. The Nicene creed was designed to keep political peace---to keep everyone happy, that is all.

Anyone who has read the Bible with prayer should question, seriously, the doctrine of the trinity.