A "what if" question for critics.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, Billyray---I often find that if I go back and look at the real scripture--I can see why you put a "..." there.

Isaiah 43
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. . ." declares the Lord,



Would you say that this quote from the Lord is poetic and inaccurate as written?

When you see a QUOTE followed by "declared the Lord", what does that mean to you?

So are you going to answer my questions or are you going to sidestep it?

Recall what you said that led up to my questions above.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Just for any readers out there...I do not believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one "being"---I believe that they are one in heart and purpose. . .

So you are a polytheist. Is that a fair ***essment for the "readers out there"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, It is John who teaches us that God is Spirit in the New Testament. God is a Spirit---but, so are you and me. The basis of who you are is your spirit---not your body. But that does not exclude you from having a body--just as it doesn't exclude God. Christ taught that we get to know God via His Spirit through our spirit.

If I said that you are a brunette, does that exclude you from having ears or eyes or legs or a spirit?

Where does the Bible teach that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?

And if you feel real ambitious perhaps you can tell us where the Bible teaches us that God the Father was once a man who lived on another planet and progressed to become a god and have a goddess wife so that they can procreate spirit babies. Or are you going to admit the truth that this is never mentioned in the Bible but rather extra Biblical stuff that Joseph made up?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It is plain that Isaiah spoke in poetic language to help us understand the majesty of God. But unlike you, I do not take the concrete writings of Moses and then ***ume that they are now only metaphorical and then take the metaphorical writings of Isaiah and try to make them concrete. It is obvious to me which one is which.

The concrete words of Moses are: "Hear Oh Israel. The Lord our GOD IS ONE LORD".. NOT that God is three lords.. You can twist the language in the creation story all you want, but God's revelation to Moses and to Isaiah is that there is One God not three! There are three persons that are called God in the Bible. But all that means in the Doctrine of the Trinity agrees with the whole of the Bible as mormonism tries to agree with just the creation story.. The Doctrine of the Trinity shows that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were all there at the creation even though the Bible also teaches us that Jesus created all things.. Again the Trinity can handle that teaching but mormonism according to you must deny that your three Gods are there working on the creation..

So Isaiah is mere metaphor? That seems an easy way to get out of the revelation of Himself God gave to the prophet.. Just where does Isaiah say that His revelation was a metaphor? Was Jesus using a metaphor as he agreed with Moses saying that The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29). Maybe you want to say that all the miracles Jesus worked were metaphorical..

Tell me what is metaphorical about Isaiah 53. Was Jesus secretly beautiful when the Prophet said He would have no beauty? As He was crucified was he popular with the m***es or is it reality that men turned away from Him? If Isaiah 43-46 were metaphorical what is it about chapter 53 that is reality? You are spouting pure nonsense you can't support in the scripture.. There are no lampstands here that are being called churches. There are no seeds being said to have stood as the word of God in the hearts of the people scattered among weeds, on hard ground, or in fertile soil.. Yes there are metaphors used in the scripture but you can't fine one in a p***age that tell us that God, who knows all things, doesn't know as much as you say you know, that there are many Gods that exist other than Him..

Oh I think I have it.. When you agree with a p***age that is real, when you disagree then the p***age it's a metaphor.. To bad it isn't working for you.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you are a polytheist. Is that a fair ***essment for the "readers out there"?

No, I don't think it is a fair ***essment. I believe in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I worship God the Father through the Son and God hears and answers my prayers through the Holy Ghost.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The concrete words of Moses are: "Hear Oh Israel. The Lord our GOD IS ONE LORD".. NOT that God is three lords.. You can twist the language in the creation story all you want, but God's revelation to Moses and to Isaiah is that there is One God not three! There are three persons that are called God in the Bible. But all that means in the Doctrine of the Trinity agrees with the whole of the Bible as mormonism tries to agree with just the creation story.. The Doctrine of the Trinity shows that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were all there at the creation even though the Bible also teaches us that Jesus created all things.. Again the Trinity can handle that teaching but mormonism according to you must deny that your three Gods are there working on the creation..

So Isaiah is mere metaphor? That seems an easy way to get out of the revelation of Himself God gave to the prophet.. Just where does Isaiah say that His revelation was a metaphor? Was Jesus using a metaphor as he agreed with Moses saying that The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29). Maybe you want to say that all the miracles Jesus worked were metaphorical..

Tell me what is metaphorical about Isaiah 53. Was Jesus secretly beautiful when the Prophet said He would have no beauty? As He was crucified was he popular with the m***es or is it reality that men turned away from Him? If Isaiah 43-46 were metaphorical what is it about chapter 53 that is reality? You are spouting pure nonsense you can't support in the scripture.. There are no lampstands here that are being called churches. There are no seeds being said to have stood as the word of God in the hearts of the people scattered among weeds, on hard ground, or in fertile soil.. Yes there are metaphors used in the scripture but you can't fine one in a p***age that tell us that God, who knows all things, doesn't know as much as you say you know, that there are many Gods that exist other than Him..

Oh I think I have it.. When you agree with a p***age that is real, when you disagree then the p***age it's a metaphor.. To bad it isn't working for you.. IHS jim

"There are three persons that are called God in the Bible."

Yup, that is what I am saying. Glad we agree. And as we can see--each person has their own will---as Christ said, not my will, but thine when speaking of the Father. Clearly these three persons are not the same "being"--if they were, there would be no reason for Christ to say such a thing.

you must deny that your three Gods are there working on the creation..

No, not at all. All three "persons" (as you call them) are part of the Godhead--there during creation.

Yes there are metaphors used in the scripture but you can't fine one in a p***age that tell us that God, who knows all things, doesn't know as much as you say you know, that there are many Gods that exist other than Him..

I am glad you agree regarding the metaphors. Good to know. As far as many "gods'---there is no capital "g" there as you suppose---God calls himself God of gods and Lord of lords. Pretty plain there.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I don't think it is a fair ***essment. I believe in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I worship God the Father through the Son and God hears and answers my prayers through the Holy Ghost.

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism
"belief in or worship of more than one god"


Don't you believe that there is more than one god? If so does't that make you a polytheist by the dictionary definition?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism
"belief in or worship of more than one god"


Don't you believe that there is more than one god? If so does't that make you a polytheist by the dictionary definition?

No. As I stated, I worship God the Father through the Son. But, then---I already said that. I know you are on this kick of what you think I believe---but you know---this accusation is also made about Christianity by Muslims because they do not recognize Christ as the Son of God. So, I guess this argument seems to distract many from understanding the true nature of God the Father and His Son--as if taking this stand allows you an out from recognizing who Christ truly is. The Pharisees also took this stand.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism
"belief in or worship of more than one god"


Don't you believe that there is more than one god? If so does't that make you a polytheist by the dictionary definition?

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No. As I stated, I worship God the Father through the Son. . .

No you don't believe that there is more than one god. Is that what you are saying?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No you don't believe that there is more than one god. Is that what you are saying?

You know Billyray, you seem to want to ignore what I am saying that I believe and take this stand---***uming that if you take it you can prove that I don't believe in the God of the Bible. As I said, this was the exact stand the Pharisees took. They had the same thought that you did---if there be the ONE God, then certainly, He could not have a Son that who was part of the Godhead. That is why they thought he was a devil. So, what is the point you are trying to make other than taking the same argument that other non-believers have had before you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You know Billyray, you seem to want to ignore what I am saying that I believe and take this stand---***uming that if you take it you can prove that I don't believe in the God of the Bible. As I said, this was the exact stand the Pharisees took. They had the same thought that you did---if there be the ONE God, then certainly, He could not have a Son that who was part of the Godhead. That is why they thought he was a devil. So, what is the point you are trying to make other than taking the same argument that other non-believers have had before you?

All I am trying to do is get a straight answer from you. Do you or do you not believe that there is more than one god?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

All I am trying to do is get a straight answer from you. Do you or do you not believe that there is more than one god?

You got it. You just don't have the ears to hear it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You got it. You just don't have the ears to hear it.

I know what mormonism teaches which is that they believe in many gods which by definition is polytheism. But I still don't know what you believe. Do you or do you not believe that there is more than one god?

[Billyray]

BigJ I am still waiting for you to answer this--perhaps you forgot. Here it is again for you.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

Can you be more specific? So far you have stated that the gods spoken about in this verse are: 1. God the Father 2. Jesus Christ. Who are the other gods that you think were present? (I am asking because it is important when discussing this verse in context to your original use of this verse in support of mormonism).

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know what mormonism teaches which is that they believe in many gods which by definition is polytheism. But I still don't know what you believe. Do you or do you not believe that there is more than one god?

Polytheism is the worship of many gods. God calls himself God of gods. Under your definition, God himself is polytheistic.

John 10
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ I am still waiting for you to answer this--perhaps you forgot. Here it is again for you.

Can you be more specific? So far you have stated that the gods spoken about in this verse are: 1. God the Father 2. Jesus Christ. Who are the other gods that you think were present? (I am asking because it is important when discussing this verse in context to your original use of this verse in support of mormonism).

Already answered you, but here it is again: "Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead."

But, I also asked you why you believe it says "our" and "us"---and you have yet to answer at all. Let's see if you do this time.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Already answered you, but here it is again: "Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead."

But, I also asked you why you believe it says "our" and "us"---and you have yet to answer at all. Let's see if you do this time.

We, Us, Our.. That is descriptive of the Trinity.. THREE PERSONS.. One GOD.. The Biblical doctrine of God doesn't deny that there are three separate Persons, it just denys that they are three separate Gods. You imagined "Gotch ya" is found only in the mind of those that can't accept the Trinity..

How many Gods did Moses really teach exists? ONE (Deut 6:4).. As I told you before Jesus confirmed that doctrine in Mark 12:29. Mormonism teaches that because of a the fairy tale told by Joseph Smith in 1843 of a experience he had in 1820 in a grove of trees it knows more about the nature of God than Jesus did Himself. How can that be? That God would say that He is one Lord but Smith would teach that we have three Gods, and then say no one can contradict it (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. Moses , Isaiah, and Jesus CONTRADICTED it!!!

So If the fact that there are three Persons in the Trinity and that in it exists the fullness of the ONLY true Divinity. It is clear that we can't make a religion out of one chapter of the Bible we have to believe in all of it or none of it.. By calling Isaiah metaphorical you have confirmed to me that you doubt that God spoke to us through the prophet. That His writings were mere poems.. Coming from his own creative mind.. Sorry to burst your bubble but the writings of the prophet were the words of God not the words of Isaiah.. And there God tells is that He is the ONLY real GOD that exists. That neither before Him or after Him was there any other.. Add your "For this world" if you wish. It still means that Either Jesus is that true God with the Holy Spirit, and the Father, OR neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Divine.. For No other God was formed before or after the Father was God.. And according to the Holy Spirit through the psalmist God has been God from everlasting to everlasting. Therefore The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally God.. These Truths are far superior to the idea that We, Us, and Our teach three separate Gods.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

But, I also asked you why you believe it says "our" and "us"---and you have yet to answer at all. Let's see if you do this time.

This is not a difficult question for Christians. This is the first hint of the Trinity right here in the first chapter of the Genesis. Now perhaps you can actually answer my question--the one that you keep trying to avoid.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Already answered you, but here it is again: "Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead."

So who exactly are these "great and noble ones" that you speak of? Are they gods of other worlds or are they spirit children of god and his wife (wives)?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Polytheism is the worship of many gods. God calls himself God of gods. Under your definition, God himself is polytheistic.

John 10
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Is God the only true and living God or are there others we need to consider in our prayers? Maybe Thor? Thor was a pagan god was he not? So he was a god (elohim). When Issac left the house of Laban was he not accused of taking the family gods (elohims)? Laban and his family bowed down to these objects and worshiped them.. They two were pagan gods. Did God create the earth where the material was found to form these gods? Did God create the weather in which lightening crashed through the skies to which the belief of Thor was born.. God then is the God of gods..

Haven't we killed your idea that the gods of Psalm 82 failed to defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy and they shall shall die like men? What kind of Gods would fail in their purpose and then die like men.. JUDGES!! They were call elohims because they had the power of life and death over the people.. Trying to get you to see what a p***age really teaches instead of what you want it to say is the challenge here.. I have shown you clearly why these elohims are mere men. Other than the word elohim is used to describe their authority over the people you have not shown one evidence that there were creative gods like the Father and Jesus are God.. Jesus was able to use the i g n o r a n c e of the Jews because they were as untaught as the LDS seem to be in the meaning of Psalm 82.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Polytheism is the worship of many gods. God calls himself God of gods. Under your definition, God himself is polytheistic.

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"


I guess you didn't bother even reading the definition that I gave you. Here is the definition for you again--perhaps you should actually read it this time.

Since you "believe in" many gods you are a polytheist by definition. Agree?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"


I guess you didn't bother even reading the definition that I gave you. Here is the definition for you again--perhaps you should actually read it this time.

Since you "believe in" many gods you are a polytheist by definition. Agree?

And as I noted, if this is what you want to stick to--then you believe Christ himself is polytheistic.

One more time for the record:

John 10
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is not a difficult question for Christians. This is the first hint of the Trinity right here in the first chapter of the Genesis. Now perhaps you can actually answer my question--the one that you keep trying to avoid.

The first "hint" of the trinity did not come about until the Nicene creed (about 300 AD)---which is why you will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Is God the only true and living God or are there others we need to consider in our prayers? Maybe Thor? Thor was a pagan god was he not? So he was a god (elohim). When Issac left the house of Laban was he not accused of taking the family gods (elohims)? Laban and his family bowed down to these objects and worshiped them.. They two were pagan gods. Did God create the earth where the material was found to form these gods? Did God create the weather in which lightening crashed through the skies to which the belief of Thor was born.. God then is the God of gods..

Haven't we killed your idea that the gods of Psalm 82 failed to defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy and they shall shall die like men? What kind of Gods would fail in their purpose and then die like men.. JUDGES!! They were call elohims because they had the power of life and death over the people.. Trying to get you to see what a p***age really teaches instead of what you want it to say is the challenge here.. I have shown you clearly why these elohims are mere men. Other than the word elohim is used to describe their authority over the people you have not shown one evidence that there were creative gods like the Father and Jesus are God.. Jesus was able to use the i g n o r a n c e of the Jews because they were as untaught as the LDS seem to be in the meaning of Psalm 82.. IHS jim

Ummm, the point isn't who were the gods (who failed to defend the poor and fatherless), but rather or not polytheism is the worship of other gods or just the belief that they do exist. If polytheism is just the belief that "gods' exist--that those "gods" who God defined in both the OT and the NT, would make God himself a polytheist---according to Billyray, anyways.

Glad you note that they are called "elohim" by God himself though---you made my point.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The first "hint" of the trinity did not come about until the Nicene creed (about 300 AD)---which is why you will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.

The first hint of the Trinity is in the first chapter of Genesis--like I said above.

Now are you ever going to answer my question? Remember that you are the one who brought up this verse in support of mormonism and I am patiently waiting for you to address it for me. Here it is again for you.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Already answered you, but here it is again: "Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead."

So who exactly are these "great and noble ones" that you speak of? Are they gods of other worlds or are they spirit children of god and his wife (wives)?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The first "hint" of the trinity did not come about until the Nicene creed (about 300 AD)---which is why you will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.

Neither is the words First Presidency, or Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, or endowment, or initiatory or telestial kingdom. But you might want to say that the concept of these words are there.. Julie, the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible.. There are three persons that are all called God in the Scripture, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Each are called God.. BUT THE BIBLE IS CLEAR THERE IS ONE GOD.. That is clearly the full intent of the meaning of the word Trinity.. IHS jim