A "what if" question for critics.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And as I noted, if this is what you want to stick to--then you believe Christ himself is polytheistic.

You didn't answer my question BigJ. Here it is again for you.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"


I guess you didn't bother even reading the definition that I gave you. Here is the definition for you again--perhaps you should actually read it this time.

Since you "believe in" many gods you are a polytheist by definition. Agree?

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Neither is the words First Presidency, or Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, or endowment, or initiatory or telestial kingdom. But you might want to say that the concept of these words are there.. Julie, the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible.. There are three persons that are all called God in the Scripture, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Each are called God.. BUT THE BIBLE IS CLEAR THERE IS ONE GOD.. That is clearly the full intent of the meaning of the word Trinity.. IHS jim

Hmmmm, but the 12 apostles are there---the celestial and terrestrial kingdom are there.

The concept of the trinity is not found in the Bible. As I have so clearly explained, God's likeness and image can be seen clearly in His Son Jesus Christ---which you deny. I accept that there are three persons---just as you do. But I do not accept that Christ is not a separate being from the Father--with his own consciousness and will. It is so plain that Christ says "not MY will, but THINE".

Sadly, Nicene, I believe, in an attempt to keep this type of debate at bay--came up with a definition of God to try to keep every one happy--three persons, one being. But that idea is not found in the Bible. What is explained is that they are one. But Christ asks us to be One as He is. He explains couples as "one" flesh....but we all understand that we are still our own person with our own thoughts and wills.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You didn't answer my question BigJ. Here it is again for you.

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

Billyray, it doesn't take long in conversing with you to realize your way is to just repeat the same question over and over again, and completely close your ears to the answers. I am beginning to understand how Christ felt with the Pharisees---until to understand or hear anything they didn't want to.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Ummm, the point isn't who were the gods (who failed to defend the poor and fatherless), but rather or not polytheism is the worship of other gods or just the belief that they do exist. If polytheism is just the belief that "gods' exist--that those "gods" who God defined in both the OT and the NT, would make God himself a polytheist---according to Billyray, anyways.

Glad you note that they are called "elohim" by God himself though---you made my point.

God doesn't even believe that these elohims are Gods.. God denies that other Gods exist.. the word elohim as I have said and said again can mean rules and magistrates.. That is what these were, that is what our judges that sit on the benches of our courts and our leaders that direct or governments are today.. Men that had power given to them by God and the people.. This is exactly what I was saying before you take a word from the Bible and try to make a whole religion out of it.. It doesn't work because God has said "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isaiah 44:8), but because that is Isaiah again it isn't really scripture it is merely metaphorical inventions of the mind of a man who claimed that God gave him these words.. If these were the real word of God and not just a man's invented poem they would condemn mormonism into a blasphemy of saying it knows more than the Lord God Himself.. Now doesn't that sound foolish even to your LDS ears? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Just busy with good things.

Yes I believe that you have been..

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just because you see yourself doing "Good things" doesn't mean that you have become a Child of God through faith in Jesus.. There are many an atheist that have done "good things" IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes I believe that you have been..

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just because you see yourself doing "Good things" doesn't mean that you have become a Child of God through faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

Oh my--I can't believe you are trying to attack me on this point.

Lets see---I was up to taking care of a friend who has cancer; helping with children and grandchildren; babysitting for a friend; etc. Judge if you want.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

God doesn't even believe that these elohims are Gods.. God denies that other Gods exist.. the word elohim as I have said and said again can mean rules and magistrates.. That is what these were, that is what our judges that sit on the benches of our courts and our leaders that direct or governments are today.. Men that had power given to them by God and the people.. This is exactly what I was saying before you take a word from the Bible and try to make a whole religion out of it.. It doesn't work because God has said "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isaiah 44:8), but because that is Isaiah again it isn't really scripture it is merely metaphorical inventions of the mind of a man who claimed that God gave him these words.. If these were the real word of God and not just a man's invented poem they would condemn mormonism into a blasphemy of saying it knows more than the Lord God Himself.. Now doesn't that sound foolish even to your LDS ears? IHS jim

Okay, God calls them gods. Glad you acknowledge that. But then you say that he denies that "Gods" exist---does he deny that "gods" exist?


And if these "rulers and magistrates exist--do they exist in the hereafter?

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Why do you think Christ tells his apostles and disciples that they will receive a crown --or that he apostles will be twelve judges? Isn't that the *** of a magistrate?

And why does Genesis start with "elohim" then to you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray, it doesn't take long in conversing with you to realize your way is to just repeat the same question over and over again, and completely close your ears to the answers. I am beginning to understand how Christ felt with the Pharisees---until to understand or hear anything they didn't want to.

BigJ why are you avoiding answering my question? It is a very simple question, one that I know you are capable of answering. Here it is again for you.

Merriam-Webster dictionary
Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh my--I can't believe you are trying to attack me on this point.

Lets see---I was up to taking care of a friend who has cancer; helping with children and grandchildren; babysitting for a friend; etc. Judge if you want.

What attack? I said I believe that you were doing "Good things".. I just pointed out that doing so is not the narrow road to salvation.. I am not judging your "good things" I am showing you through the Bible that God isn't interested in what you do He is interested in whose you are.. If you believe in three different Gods you don't believe in Him, and without that faith in Him it is impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6)..

If you feel attacked by my post, and because it was all about believing that you were doing good times and what God has to say about doing Wonderful Works I would say you were convicted.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, God calls them gods.

Satan is called a god. Do you believe that he is a god like God the Father?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Lets see---I was up to taking care of a friend who has cancer; helping with children and grandchildren; babysitting for a friend; etc. Judge if you want.

What does this have to do with the discussion here on this board?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ why are you avoiding answering my question? It is a very simple question, one that I know you are capable of answering. Here it is again for you.

Merriam-Webster dictionary
Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

I have answered this question many times.

Answer me this question---who do I worship? I have answered that. You can just cut and paste if you like. Once you see my answer, you will have your answer.

With that being said---I really do have to go. It is time for a family vacation--which I have been preparing for these past few days (cooking, cleaning, etc.)

So, you can tell me I am going to hell, accuse me of worshiping more than one God, tell me that I am not capable of really doing any good, malign me to your friends, ignore my explanations, tell untruths about me, accuse me of having a "persecution complex", and any other thing you desire to do.

But as for me, I know what I know. I know that God the Father lives and loves me. He sent His only Begotten Son who died for me so that I can repent and be forgiven and ultimately return to MY Father in Heaven again. I know that the Holy Ghost bears truth of this and the truths we learn through the scriptures. I have searched the scriptures, and I have found that the teachings revealed to Joseph Smith are true.

So, continue on with your scourging. I rest ***ured that Christ suffered far worse and that I can stand with Him for truth.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I have answered this question many times.

Can you point me to the post were you directly answered my question.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Answer me this question---who do I worship?

The false gods of mormonism--which ultimately means that you are following Satan and his deception.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I have answered this question many times.

Answer me this question---who do I worship? I have answered that. You can just cut and paste if you like. Once you see my answer, you will have your answer.

With that being said---I really do have to go. It is time for a family vacation--which I have been preparing for these past few days (cooking, cleaning, etc.)

So, you can tell me I am going to hell, accuse me of worshiping more than one God, tell me that I am not capable of really doing any good, malign me to your friends, ignore my explanations, tell untruths about me, accuse me of having a "persecution complex", and any other thing you desire to do.

But as for me, I know what I know. I know that God the Father lives and loves me. He sent His only Begotten Son who died for me so that I can repent and be forgiven and ultimately return to MY Father in Heaven again. I know that the Holy Ghost bears truth of this and the truths we learn through the scriptures. I have searched the scriptures, and I have found that the teachings revealed to Joseph Smith are true.

So, continue on with your scourging. I rest ***ured that Christ suffered far worse and that I can stand with Him for truth.

You avoided answering the question as well as some, and much better than most LDS. You are either denying the teaching of Smith that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all separate Gods or you deny that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Gods at all.. You may as will say that you believe in a glorified man and he sent Buddha a mere man, one of God's sons to teach you the right ways to live and die so you could be resurrected.. The fact is that in this post you denied the deity of Jesus. You are willing to call Him a son, even God's only begotten but a God who in His divinity is in every way equal with the Father. That you didn't and I believe can't do and stay true to the doctrines of Jesus held by the LDS church.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

With that being said---I really do have to go. It is time for a family vacation--which I have been preparing for these past few days (cooking, cleaning, etc.)

Enjoy your vacation. Perhaps this will give you time to ponder what we have discussed.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Merriam-Webster dictionary
Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

Was Jesus a polytheist by that dictionary definition?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Was Jesus a polytheist by that dictionary definition?

The Trinity doctrine is kind of difficult to understand, especially coming from a Mormon background (which I do). But, I think it is about significantly more than simply being in agreement with one another (one in thought and purpose). I think of it as sharing the same soul or spirit. The essence is One (not just thoughts and purpose, but the very essence).

The Bible seems to indicate that we will become one with God, as well, if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Galations 3

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I believe that "oneness" is at the very soul or spirit level.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Trinity doctrine is kind of difficult to understand, especially coming from a Mormon background (which I do). But, I think it is about significantly more than simply being in agreement with one another (one in thought and purpose). I think of it as sharing the same soul or spirit. The essence is One (not just thoughts and purpose, but the very essence).

The Bible seems to indicate that we will become one with God, as well, if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Galations 3

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I believe that "oneness" is at the very soul or spirit level.

As long as you understand that only God is God and we can ONLY be His children.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Was Jesus a polytheist by that dictionary definition?

No Jesus is not a polytheist.

How about you are you a polytheist?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No Jesus is not a polytheist.

Didn't Jesus claim to have a God?
Didn't Jesus also imply that the God of Israel was Jesus Himself?
Doesn't that make Jesus a polytheist by your dictionary definition?

How about you are you a polytheist?

I think I am no more a polytheist than Jesus is.

[RealFakeHair]

Simple test:
How many true living god's are there in the Universe?
The answer to this question will determined if you believe you are a polytheist or not.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Trinity doctrine is kind of difficult to understand, especially coming from a Mormon background (which I do). But, I think it is about significantly more than simply being in agreement with one another (one in thought and purpose). I think of it as sharing the same soul or spirit. The essence is One (not just thoughts and purpose, but the very essence).

The Bible seems to indicate that we will become one with God, as well, if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Galations 3

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I believe that "oneness" is at the very soul or spirit level.

Then Libby, do you believe that if we become one with God that we will have His soul or spirit? How do we (followers) become ONE as they are ONE? I think this is the key to understanding how The Father and The Son are ONE.

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154964]Didn't Jesus claim to have a God?
Didn't Jesus also imply that the God of Israel was Jesus Himself?

Yes Jesus said that the Father is God, and YES He knew that He is God but Jesus also believed and sustained Moses in saying "hear oh Israel the Lord our GOD in one LORD" (Mark 12:29). That sound more like Jesus was a trinitarian believing that the Father is God but also knowing that He is God.

Doesn't that make Jesus a polytheist by your dictionary definition?

Like I said Jesus confirmed that there is One God while knowing that the Father is God, and He is God. That doesn't define a polytheist at all, it describes someone who understand the triune nature of God..

I think I am no more a polytheist than Jesus is.

If you agree that Joseph Smith knew more about God than all the men of his day or since his day then you are clearly a polytheist.. You should know by now that Smith said "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

I have already shown you that Jesus contradicted it and told you that in so doing he was quoting Moses.. That is two that contradict Smith. Sounds to be like Smith was setting himself above Jesus in his knowledge of God.. That would be blasphemy.. It was blasphemy! Still in saying that there are three Gods, Smith made it clear that he and those that believed he taught only truth are just as much polytheists as he was.. So do you believe there are three Gods as Smith did or do you agree with Jesus that the Lord is One God? Without injecting the infamous "In purpose" into the text can you still agree that there is not three Gods, but only one? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Just read Abraham. It's five chapters, like you said. Find the one that speaks of God's creations. I don't think that is too much to ask either.

And has as much truth in it as Goldilocks and the Three Bears.. IHS jim