A "what if" question for critics.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

If He has always known (that is my position) why would it be wrong to destine all He knew would come to Him unto life and those He knew would reject Him to ****ation in the Lake of Fire?

there we have the cl***ic understanding of someone who believes god destines some to ****ation in hell....

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

i think that some of the teachings of Calvinism have no foundation in God's word.

Calvinists fall back on "men's reasoning" to support some of their views because not all of their views are found in the bible.
The problem with the use of "men's reasoning' is that its flawed much of the time.

Be fair tell me which ones.. I know you agree with some of the 5 points.. IHS jim

[Libby]

This is not quite it, Alan. I don't know if Jim considers himself a Calvinist or not, but his position on this particular point is not Calvinist. Not unless he believes that God chose these people, arbitrarily, for no reason of which we are aware (which is actually the Calvinist position).

That God "knows" who will choose Him is an expression of God's omnipresent nature...and I do believe God is all knowing.

I'm not seeing Jim's posts, unless you quote them, so not sure what all he is saying....but, on this one point, he is correct (IMHO).

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

This is not quite it, Alan. I don't know if Jim considers himself a Calvinist or not, but his position on this particular point is not Calvinist. Not unless he believes that God chose these people, arbitrarily, for no reason of which we are aware (which is actually the Calvinist position).

That God "knows" who will choose Him is an expression of God's omnipresent nature...and I do believe God is all knowing.

I'm not seeing Jim's posts, unless you quote them, so not sure what all he is saying....but, on this one point, he is correct (IMHO).

perhaps Jim has come up with his own private form of calvinism?....

if that is the case it's going to be hard for me to find other Walter Martin recordings that go over each point that Jim teaches as it's just something Jim pulled out of thin air....

I do know that at the 6:00 point in the recording Martin does attack the idea that "god predestines some to hell" and Martin does credit this teaching to Calvin....

Now the forum poster John seems to think differently about Jim's view of predestination...but time will tell if John wants to step in here with his views ?

[Libby]

Yes, there is no predestining to hell. I think the whole issue of predestination is very misunderstood, especially by Calvinists.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, there is no predestining to hell. I think the whole issue of predestination is very misunderstood, especially by Calvinists.

Here is what im seeing....

The Calvinist is stuck attempting to understand how Predestination works with free will?

So what some Calvinists do is come up with the answer -
They say...."God used His foreknowledge to learn who in the future believes in the son and who doesn't, and thus God knew who He should predestine to believe or not believe".....

The Calvinist will smile and say to everyone, "I solved the problem!"



Well guess what Calvinist?...you didn't!

You simply answered a unanswerable question with your own little dreamed-up answer that is not based on the Bible at all !

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So very untrue. I hope those who come here to learn of what Mormons believe will actually go to the source (LDS.org or Mormon.org) and see what we believe.

Why don't you tell us.. Tell us that God created by just the power of His word even the elements.. After all the Bible teaches us that he created ALL things visible and invisible.. O2 is invisible but it does exists.. But I did go to LDS.com as you subjected. There the LDS church teaches that God didn't create it because it is an element.. "God didn't create the elements but organized them" (Smith, Teachings, 350–52, as quoted in the Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 7: The Creation, https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines...ation?lang=eng)..

(English transliteration: Bereisheet bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz). It can be translated into English in at least three ways:

1. As a statement that the cosmos had an absolute beginning (In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth).
2. As a statement describing the condition of the world when God began creating (When in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was untamed and shapeless...).
3. Similar to the second, but taking the whole of verse 2 as background so that the main ***ertion is in verse 3. When in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the earth being untamed and shapeless, God said.. (Bandstra, Barry L. (1999). Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction to the Hebrew Bible. Wadsworth Publishing Company. p. 576.)

So an ***ertion that the elements were present can be understood in the p***age as much as ex nihilo.. Neither one has a corner on the market. But when understood by other scripture we can see the true meaning:

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

I submit that the elements are things, Some are visible like Iron and Mercury. Other are invisible like Oxygen and Nitrogen. Never the less they are things and are therefore the creation of God (Jesus).. But you can keep believing men over the scripture just know that by denying that God created all thins that is just what you are doing.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I disagree that the beginning of the book of John undoes what Christ taught us directly. In fact, if you look at John, in light of what Christ directly, it makes it clear that Christ did not teach that "God enters His own creation in the person of Jesus." John speaks of the Godhead and how it works. John does not say that Christ is not the Son of God, nor undoes anything that Christ taught us of His relationship (and our relationship) to His Father.

So, I originally posted to this thread because of this comment

My point is---I do test the scriptures---I do read them, I do study them--and in the end, I do not see the Trinity concept. I look at history and the concept of the trinity, to me, is the creation of men. It is not found in the Bible--not at least, as explained by the Nicene creed.

But once again, this is why it is so important to have the witness of the Holy Ghost who teaches us and becomes a second witness to the Bible. This is why I have what I do in my signature.

The creeds have nothing to do with who God is. They are a restatement of the doctrines of God He provided for us in His word.. The Son is the Son because of the flesh and only because of the flesh.. In the OLD Testament God is just what He is Noe ONE LORD. Even though He is still three person Jesus still called Himself God just as He did in the NT, saying before Abraham was, "I AM" (YHWH).. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Jesus Christ.

As I said, to me, this verse teaches us of the Godhead. It does not undo what we learn about God the Father from Christ Himself and the relationship Christ has with God the Father (being His Son.)

This verse teaches that Jesus has always been God, or at least as long as the Father has been God.. Is that LDS teaching or would it be more correct to say that Jesus was born into a preexistent world and grew in spirit and knowledge to the point he become a god? In which case John 1:1 doesn't fit into LDS teaching at all.. After all the verse teaches us that in the Beginning was the word and that He was with God and the Word was God.. Seems that the beginning was was before anything was created. In that beginning the creative process was started.. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.. Before that there were no Heavens and no earth". If there were no heaven then there was no place for us to mature to a state where we had kept our 1st estate. Julie mormonism just doesn't fit into the scripture.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Be fair tell me which ones.. I know you agree with some of the 5 points.. IHS jim

well to start....the "T" is wrong.

Calvinists have informed me over and over that man is too far gone to ever turn to the lord and have faith without God first sanctifying that person, giving him the ability to have faith.

This is why some Calvinists go on and on asking the same types of questions (as our own Billy here asks on the forum) about man being able to turn to god and have faith without god first changing that person?


So basically the person is saved before they even have the ability to have faith in Christ.


this is totally wrong.


To see just how backwards it is just look at well known verse that tells us how we are saved...Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"


faith comes when according to this verse?

It comes first!

.....thats the path salvation comes to us via....

We are not saved, then have faith
we have faith and then we get saved.


so right off the bat the "T" is wrong



Now there are a few other things I find flawed in the 5 points....but the real thing i might suggest at this time is you get your computer fixed!

or, if your computer is too old to sink money in it, just walk into Best Buy and pick up a cheap Kindle Fire.....less than $200 and you got all the internet power you need to watch and listen to music and videos.

You just turn it on and thats it...

[James Banta]

[alanmolstad;155442]well to start....the "T" is wrong.

Calvinists have informed me over and over that man is too far gone to ever turn to the lord and have faith without God first sanctifying that person, giving him the ability to have faith.

This is why some Calvinists go on and on asking the same types of questions (as our own Billy here asks on the forum) about man being able to turn to god and have faith without god first changing that person?


So basically the person is saved before they even have the ability to have faith in Christ.


this is totally wrong.


To see just how backwards it is just look at well known verse that tells us how we are saved...Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"


faith comes when according to this verse?

It comes first!

.....thats the path salvation comes to us via....

We are not saved, then have faith
we have faith and then we get saved.


so right off the bat the "T" is wrong

I understand your issue.. But there are pesty Biblical Statements that support The "T" Like:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I say that because God has always known all things, He has known about our sin from the beginning. Seeing it He know that such sin makes us totally depraved and lost. God's knowledge about us establishes our "T"..

Now there are a few other things I find flawed in the 5 points....but the real thing i might suggest at this time is you get your computer fixed!

or, if your computer is too old to sink money in it, just walk into Best Buy and pick up a cheap Kindle Fire.....less than $200 and you got all the internet power you need to watch and listen to music and videos.

You just turn it on and thats it...

I am not ready to absorb the cost of the repair, or the time that you aren't willing to take to make your points in going to the library and show you how Dr Martin's faith in the eternal Nature of God answers your problems with Calvinism.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

god does not predestine people to hell.......

in other words God does not send anyone to hell.....

Why are people cast into the Lake of Fire? Because they believe God or it is because they deny Him.. Does God know who will Believe and who will deny even before they were born? Is there anything He hasn't always know about each and every one of us? Since that is quite impossible, I can say with authority that God is aware that many, MANY people will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That knowledge predestined them for ****ation the same as His knowledge of our faith predestines us for salvation. You can't have a predestination unto live without the same for death.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You said before that a person could not come to Christ unless drawn by the Father.

If everyone has the "ability" to come to Christ then can anyone come to Him without being drawn by the Father?

Originally Posted by Libby

We've gone over this quite enough. I have explained my position and thoughts more than adequately.

So Libby have you made up your mind on this issue yet?

1. Man is incapable of coming to Christ unless drawn by the Father
2. Man is capable of coming to Christ at any time and does not need to drawn by the Father to do so.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, there is no predestining to hell. I think the whole issue of predestination is very misunderstood, especially by Calvinists.

Sounds like you have all the answers in this area. Great. Let's start with this verse in Romans and perhaps you can tell me what it means.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not unless he believes that God chose these people, arbitrarily, for no reason of which we are aware (which is actually the Calvinist position).

Calvinist don't believe that God chooses people "arbitrarily". I thought you said that you knew this stuff?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Calvinist don't believe that God chooses people "arbitrarily".

Then, please tell us why (in your opinion) God chooses some and not others. Why?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sounds like you have all the answers in this area. Great. Let's start with this verse in Romans and perhaps you can tell me what it means.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It means exactly what it says.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So Libby have you made up your mind on this issue yet?

1. Man is incapable of coming to Christ unless drawn by the Father
2. Man is capable of coming to Christ at any time and does not need to drawn by the Father to do so.

There is no conflict between God's drawing and man's free will, as I already explained. You are the one creating conflict between these two things, by seeing it through Calvinist eyes.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Why are people cast into the Lake of Fire? Because they believe God or it is because they deny Him.. Does God know who will Believe and who will deny even before they were born? Is there anything He hasn't always know about each and every one of us? Since that is quite impossible, I can say with authority that God is aware that many, MANY people will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That knowledge predestined them for ****ation the same as His knowledge of our faith predestines us for salvation. You can't have a predestination unto live without the same for death.. IHS jim

right there Jim.....the thinking of men dressed up in our logic to look like its in the bible....and then they woder why others dont bow down to it?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by libby

there is no conflict between god's drawing and man's free will, as i already explained. You are the one creating conflict between these two things, by seeing it through calvinist eyes.

amen!.....

[alanmolstad]

libby.....inhave started a new topic on all the reasons Calvinism is wrong.

I will be going though the videos posted there and pointing out spots in the video that address the different and yet common question Calvinists always seem to have a problem understanding.


I would enjoy going over the things with you so that we both find some better tools to help Calvinists out of the hole they have fell/jumped in.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Then, please tell us why (in your opinion) God chooses some and not others. Why?

if anyone ever tells you that they know such things about God?....... walk away ....

They are just making stuff up on their own.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if anyone ever tells you that they know such things about God?....... walk away ....

They are just making stuff up on their own.

Just a thought to add to the discussion. ***uming that God has the right and power to call whom he pleases effectually to faith, how can it be consistent for God to p*** over people and leave them in their sin and condemnation when Ezekiel 18:32 says, "For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord God, so turn and live"? If God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but, in fact, Jesus weeps over the unbelief of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37; Luke 13:34; 19:41–42), then why does he not effectually call them all? Or, turning it around, if he weeps over their unbelief, can we really believe that he has himself made the choice ahead of time who will believe and who will not? What do you think?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

There is no conflict between God's drawing and man's free will, as I already explained. .

1. Man is incapable of coming to Christ unless drawn by the Father
2. Man is capable of coming to Christ at any time and does not need to drawn by the Father to do so.

So which one of the above do you believe?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It means exactly what it says.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Which is what exactly?