A "what if" question for critics.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

once again......very good observation Libby!

what i have seen over and over is that billy cant catch-on to the idea that we can have free will while at the same time god is Sovereign.


To him its just something he cant understand.
This is the reason Calvinism had to invent their own rules and answers and pull stuff out of thin air.
It's because they simply could not understand what the bible was teaching.
That man has free will, while at the same time God is sovereign.

Alan, is it proper to criticize another poster, even using their name in your comments? I highly doubt you would like it if the shoe were on the other foot.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what i have seen over and over is that billy cant catch-on to the idea that we can have free will while at the same time god is Sovereign.

The reason I can't catch on to this concept Alan is because it is a contradiction, which I have tried to show you. If man is in ultimate control of all future events--not God--then how can you say that god is Sovereign?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

once again......very good observation Libby!

Alan I don't see how this post by Libby in any way corrects the false ***ertion that you made in your prior post. Perhaps you could explain that for me.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The reason I can't catch on to this concept Alan is because it is a contradiction, which I have tried to show you. If man is in ultimate control of all future events--not God--then how can you say that god is Sovereign?

The obvious answer is that man is not in control of all future events, particularly, in the bigger picture.

Do you agree that a ship's captain maintains control of the ship, without, hugely, interfering with his p***engers free will? Can the p***engers still make decisions about coming and going and how they will react to the situations they find themselves in? Can they still decide how they are going to treat people and the kinds of relationships they will have? Whether or not they will choose to sin or to obey God? All of this, as the Captain continues to steer the ship towards his chosen destination?

Pretty easy to understand, Billy. It just doesn't fit in with some of your preconceived notions. But, it does fit in, very nicely, with the Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The obvious answer is that man is not in control of all future events, particularly, in the bigger picture.

Then man does't have free will--as defined in the dictionary--like you are Alan keep going on about. Now if you want to change your term from "free will" to "choice" then sure that is true and I would agee with you because man does make choices.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

. . .The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it. . .

This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I fully agree with this. Scripture says so.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where does it say in scripture that the Father died on the cross?

Originally Posted by Libby

How could the Father draw anyone to him, without also drawing them to Jesus?

Libby can you tell me what this has to do with Alan's obvious incorrect statement above?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you agree that a ship's captain maintains control of the ship, without, hugely, interfering with his p***engers free will?

If the p***engers had free will then they would be able to make any choice that they wanted to including total control of the ship. But they certainly have choices to make. As I said before both you and Alan are using the term free will but what you mean by this term is choice. But even Calvinists believe that man makes choices.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If the p***engers had free will then they would be able to make any choice that they wanted to including total control of the ship. But they certainly have choices to make. As I said before both you and Alan are using the term free will but what you mean by this term is choice. But even Calvinists believe that man makes choices.

Yes, you do believe we have choices. The problem with Calvinism is that it supposes that man will consistently only make ONE choice (to continue in sin and turn away from God) without God first regenerating him.

That belief makes it God's choice, rather than man's. God does not interfere with our free will, to that extent....although, he will regenerate and give us a new heart (usually, a little at a time), as we come to desire it.

[alanmolstad]

Libby.....I have guests at the house tonight......I will catch up with you later.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, you do believe we have choices. The problem with Calvinism is that it supposes that man will consistently only make ONE choice (to continue in sin and turn away from God) without God first regenerating him.

But that person IS making a real and chooses exactly what he wants to do. And because he willingly chooses to break the commandments and to reject Christ, he is responsible for the consequences. If he did choose to obey all of the commandments OR accept Christ then he would live with God and God would welcome him with open arms.

Originally Posted by Libby

God does not interfere with our free will. . .

Can you share with me the scriptures that you are you basing this belief that man has complete free will?

Merriam Webster
FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154869]Jesus Christ is proof that your beliefs about this is not correct. Jesus Christ came and showed the disciples that He has a resurrected body. If you believe that God is one with Christ, than you must accept, that at least in some form, God has a body. Now the question is---do you believe that Christ is the express image of the Father or not? As I said, being Spirit does not mean you have no body--just as you have both.

Jesus had two clear teachings about the nature of God.. 1. He said that "God is Spirit".. That is not open to interpretation. It is a direct quote from the mouth of the Lord.. Later He taught us the nature of a Spirit. 2. He said "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39). You are teaching that Jesus was saying that the Father has both a tangible body and a spirit, as He said God is Spirit.. You disagree with Jesus about what the nature of a spirit is..

You disagree with the Holy Spirit as to the nature of God.. Through Paul the Holy Spirit tells us:

Col 1:12-17
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Umm, nope, not according to Mormonism. As you know, Mormons understand that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to the beginning of the earth. That said...if you believe the Father and the Son "are the same Being"---then you also accept that God has a body.

Yes, mormonism teaches that Jesus BECAME a God sometime during His premortal life before the world was created. It also teaches that Jesus was born as a spirit the same way we all were.. That at one time (disreguarging birth order) he and we were equal. All spirit children of the Father.. Wasn't it sometime after his plan for our mortal lives, free to either accept God's ways or reject them, when He became divine? That doctrine is in direct violation of Isaiah 43:10? Jesus becoming a God well after the time when the Father became a God? I know the LDS are accustomed to having God make huge changes in His word to us.. But the real God of the Bible NEVER changes..

No, you are saying that they are different--in that Christ has a body and God the Father doesn't. You say that God is Spirit ONLY--and yet you state that Christ exists "along with" God the Father. Is your position that Christ has a resurrected body, but God the Father does not?---If you state that they are the same being--then you must admit, to you, your God has a body as part of that being is Jesus Christ who has a body.

I am NOT SAYING that they are the same person.. I have said this a hundred times or more.. The Father is not the Son. the Son is not the Father, neither is the Holy Spirit. But The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God without end. Amen (2 Nephi 31:21).. No where is it taught that the Father can't be spirit and the Son tangible. All that is taught is the there is One God and He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Unlike you I will not add to that. I won't add a man's explanation phrase to that description. God is One Lord and is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Period! Not just "one in purpose". IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But that person IS making a real and chooses exactly what he wants to do. And because he willingly chooses to break the commandments and to reject Christ, he is responsible for the consequences. If he did choose to obey all of the commandments OR accept Christ then he would live with God and God would welcome him with open arms.

Yes, and that's exactly what happens when someone freely chooses Christ. But, you don't believe that is possible, unless God intervenes. I've outlined this "difference" between our beliefs, at least, three times, now. So, why do you keep asking about it? Have your beliefs changed? Do you believe that man is free to choose God, of his own agency? Without, first, being "changed" in some way, by God, Himself?

Can you share with me the scriptures that you are you basing this belief that man has complete free will?

I don't believe man has "complete" free will. We already discussed that. But, man is free to choose God, of his own free will, and God wants us to do that.

Which verses would you like to hear? Jesus weeping over man, in Jerusalem? God saying that he desires that ALL men come to him? There are verses in every book of the Bible that indicate that God knows we have the "ability" to turn to him, if we choose.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, and that's exactly what happens when someone freely chooses Christ. But, you don't believe that is possible, unless God intervenes. I've outlined this "difference" between our beliefs, at least, three times, now. So, why do you keep asking about it? Have your beliefs changed? Do you believe that man is free to choose God, of his own agency? Without, first, being "changed" in some way, by God, Himself?



I don't believe man has "complete" free will. We already discussed that. But, man is free to choose God, of his own free will, and God wants us to do that.

Which verses would you like to hear? Jesus weeping over man, in Jerusalem? God saying that he desires that ALL men come to him? There are verses in every book of the Bible that indicate that God knows we have the "ability" to turn to him, if we choose.

But God doesn't know what we will do now does He? The God you are talking about doesn't have any idea what we will do and what choices we will make.. MY GOD DOES.. He Knows all things. Therefore because our future is as well know to Him as our past is He can predestine us for life or ****ation.. Why? Because He already knows what we will do with His Grace.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, and that's exactly what happens when someone freely chooses Christ. But, you don't believe that is possible, unless God intervenes.

Those who are unregenerate will choose to disobey the commandments and reject Christ. I think you and I would both agree with this statement regarding the Reformed position.

Those who are unregenerate have a true choice and that choice is noted in the first statement. Here is where we disagree. I say that they do have a choice. But you say that they don't have a choice. Which brings up a question.

Do you believe that those who are unregenerate are force to disobey the commandments and forced to reject Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't believe man has "complete" free will. We already discussed that. But, man is free to choose God, of his own free will, and God wants us to do that.

But that is what I believe as well. Man has a choice to either accept God or to reject HIM and is held responsible for that choice. Just because we know what choice they will make doesn't mean that they didn't have a choice.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

But God doesn't know what we will do now does He? The God you are talking about doesn't have any idea what we will do and what choices we will make.. MY GOD DOES.. He Knows all things. Therefore because our future is as well know to Him as our past is He can predestine us for life or ****ation.. Why? Because He already knows what we will do with His Grace.. IHS jim

See, there you go, again, James, fighting strawmen.

I've been saying all over this board that God is omniscient and knows ALL. Yes, he knows whether or not we will choose him.

So, what, exactly is your problem with my post (which you have, obviously, misunderstood)?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Those who are unregenerate will choose to disobey the commandments and reject Christ. I think you and I would both agree with this statement regarding the Reformed position.

Those who are unregenerate have a true choice and that choice is noted in the first statement. Here is where we disagree. I say that they do have a choice. But you say that they don't have a choice. Which brings up a question.

Do you believe that those who are unregenerate are force to disobey the commandments and forced to reject Christ?

But, I DO believe man (even unregenerate) can choose God. Don't you see, this is where we differ, Billy?

I don't believe individuals can go about God's work, very effectively, until they have been regenerated, but to simply choose God, in the beginning, when God first starts drawing him? Yes, non-regenerated man can do that.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But that is what I believe as well. Man has a choice to either accept God or to reject HIM and is held responsible for that choice. Just because we know what choice they will make doesn't mean that they didn't have a choice.

Can a dead man walk? If he doesn't walk on command, would it be fair to blame him for not following that command?

[alanmolstad]

sure........i have a free night and im the only one on the forum....but the moment i have a house full of guests............

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

See, there you go, again, James, fighting strawmen.

...........
So, what, exactly is your problem with my post (which you have, obviously, misunderstood)?

Libby I noticed the same thing when i read Jim's post????
I was thinking, "Where does he get these ideas?"

It's the same when I read a post from billy too.
I just have no idea?...it's like they are part of a different forum and are posting to comments made by other people and not us???????

Other than that, I got no clue what he is talking about.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that those who are unregenerate are force to disobey the commandments and forced to reject Christ?

If any person is forced to do anything, they would not be guilty.
If a person is held guilty, then it can ONLY be due to them having the ability at all times to have done something else.

This is why Jesus wept over the city and said, they....."would not" come to him.


'would not' is far different than saying 'could not'

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

But, I DO believe man (even unregenerate) can choose God. Don't you see, this is where we differ, Billy?

I don't believe individuals can go about God's work, very effectively, until they have been regenerated, but to simply choose God, in the beginning, when God first starts drawing him? Yes, non-regenerated man can do that.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

So you disagree here with the Holy Spirit.. This is one of the reasons I question you Libby.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

See, there you go, again, James, fighting strawmen.

I've been saying all over this board that God is omniscient and knows ALL. Yes, he knows whether or not we will choose him.

So, what, exactly is your problem with my post (which you have, obviously, misunderstood)?

My point is that you deny Predestination.. Through God's knowledge of all things He can predesignate any He knows that will accept Him.. I have seen you deny that doctrine more than once.. after all it is one of the five points of Calvinism.. Maybe it's that you hate Calvinists and you are willing to point out all you see in them that you believe are wrong while you refuse to do so with the LDS.. Tell me which is worse, a person that believes in Jesus for their salvation yet hold Calvinism's 5 point as Biblical truth, or a person who believes in all the teachings of mormonism including the doctrine that God wasn't always God but was a mortal man who became a God through obedience to Laws and ordinances? IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

So you disagree here with the Holy Spirit.. This is one of the reasons I question you Libby.. IHS jim

What in the world are you talking about? Of course, I do NOT disagree with the Holy Spirit, nor do I have any problem, whatsoever, with the verse you have quoted.

Have no idea where you get your wild ***umptions, James, I really don't.

[Libby]

My point is that you deny Predestination.

NO, I don't. I've talked about predestination many times. He (God) predestines those whom he "knows".

And, I do not "hate" Calvinists. Do you HATE Mormons, because you speak against their beliefs??