A "what if" question for critics.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by neverending

Alan, is it proper to criticize another poster, even using their name in your comments? I highly doubt you would like it if the shoe were on the other foot.

I was pointing out facts to Libby.
Is a fact that billy has a screwed-up understanding of Free Will that has caused his understanding of the Christian faith some harm,

And I noted that both Billy and James seem to paint people with a false color, then attack them for holding teachings that no one actually believes...

James has started to invent "straw-man" arguments concerning Libby that are very odd to read...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

My point is that you deny Predestination.. Through God's knowledge of all things He can predesignate any He knows that will accept Him.. I have seen you deny that doctrine more than once....

nope...Libby has never once done that....
So you are just making that stuff up....

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

NO, I don't. I've talked about predestination many times. He (God) predestines those whom he "knows".

And, I do not "hate" Calvinists. Do you HATE Mormons, because you speak against their beliefs??

Don't you hate Calvinism? You are right to deny that you hate Calvinists. I don't believe that you do. Can you believe that it isn't mormons that I hate, but mormonism? I know you don't deny that Calvinist are saved by the grace of the God of the Bible though their faith in Jesus, and not by works.. Do you also believe that the LDS are saved by the grace of their Jesus though their faith in him, and not by works. No but you act as through their Jesus is a real person that save all that believe in him? A creation that became a God? Or Libby is Godhood still your own personal goal.. It's hard to tell what you believe about them through all your pandering. You do take a lot of time to make them feel secure in their sin. I will continue showing them their failings along with the message of life through Faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. If you can't stand seeing Smith called for being the fraud he was in his wild story of seeing two Gods, his abomination of believing in many, and his unconfused adulteries in his polygamy you need to at least stop with the witness of "I'm ok, you're ok".. Either that of leave those of us willing to explain to them the truth and put down those that would call that truth a lie and put a lie in it's place and call it truth.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Calvinism is a wrong concept.
I fight against it...
I help people see how false it is....but I save the term 'hate' for child molesters and people who talk in the theater

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Calvinism is a wrong concept.
I fight against it...
I help people see how false it is....but I save the term 'hate' for child molesters and people who talk in the theater

Alan let me as you about free will to see how free it really is. Fair enough?

Do you have "free will" to obey ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Calvinism is a wrong concept.
I fight against it...
I help people see how false it is....but I save the term 'hate' for child molesters and people who talk in the theater

Do calvinists believe in The one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Do they believe that they are saved by His grace through faith in Jesus plus nothing? Do they believe that after they are save that God prepared good works in advance for us to do? Just where are they in such error that you have authority to show them their false doctrine? Who are you to fight against God knowing the beginning from the end, and who is saved by His grace and who rejects that grace.. Even Armenians will admit that much and what else is there to believe in the establishment of
Unconditional Election/Irresistible Grace. Since God will not force Himself on us, He will draw only those in His infinite knowledge that will come to Him.. Is that false? As I asked the LDS to acknowlegde all of the Bible not just the p***ages they like.. I know we can find many a p***age that tells us that God will not force us into His grace but there are still p***ages that teach us only those He calls will come to Jesus and the Life He provides..

So Calvinism along with Arminianism are correct.. I personally have a problem with Limited Atonement but I have no problem believing at even those that have been predestined as God's elect have as much access to His sacrifice as those who He knows will reject Him those who are already doomed in His knowledge without any hope of being redeemed. I know that isn't the way that doctrine is spelled out but it all comes down to God's will not our own.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan let me as you about free will to see how free it really is. Fair enough?

Do you have "free will" to obey ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

its like the trafic laws we all are taught to keep....

most of the time we do ok....but from time you might see me a bit over the speed limit.....

there is nothing about the laws that are byond us.....but we all have other agendas....


keeping the law not always on my top list

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan let me as you about free will to see how free it really is. Fair enough?

Do you have "free will" to obey ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its like the trafic laws we all are taught to keep....

most of the time we do ok....but from time you might see me a bit over the speed limit.....

there is nothing about the laws that are byond us.....but we all have other agendas....


keeping the law not always on my top list

I take it from your answer that you don't have "free will" to keep ALL of the commandments.

Is it fair to say that you do not have the "ability" to keep the ALL of the commandments?

[alanmolstad]

you dont even read my posts....itß clear to me

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Don't you hate Calvinism? You are right to deny that you hate Calvinists. I don't believe that you do.

No, I don't hate Calvinism. I just think it's a wrong interpretation of "some" things, in the Bible, mainly in the area of how God uses His supreme sovereignty. I believe most Calvinists are sincere Christians and I agree with them on many things.

You're correct that I do not hate Calvinists.

Can you believe that it isn't mormons that I hate, but mormonism?

I do believe that you don't hate Mormons, but I have to say you kind of come across that way, sometimes, to them...and even to other Christians, at times, like Alan and myself.

I know you don't deny that Calvinist are saved by the grace of the God of the Bible though their faith in Jesus, and not by works..

That's correct.

Do you also believe that the LDS are saved by the grace of their Jesus though their faith in him, and not by works. No but you act as through their Jesus is a real person that save all that believe in him? A creation that became a God?

I, usually, refrain from making judgments about the state of an individual's salvation or relationship with Christ. I think there are many in the LDS Church who worship and know the "real" Jesus Christ. Just as there are many in mainstream Christianity who don't have a clue, as to who Jesus is.

Do I disagree with LDS doctrine, to a large degree? Yes, I do. But, I also find very interesting areas of agreement, at times. I don't find "black and white" in any religion. We all see through a "gl*** darkly", as Julie mentioned.

Or Libby is Godhood still your own personal goal.. It's hard to tell what you believe about them through all your pandering.

No, Godhood is not a goal. It wasn't my goal, as LDS, either. Was it yours?

You do take a lot of time to make them feel secure in their sin. I will continue showing them their failings along with the message of life through Faith in Jesus plus NOTHING..

I think my time is better spent in finding and correcting my own sins. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. But, I don't mind discussing doctrine and where I find disagreement, if it comes up.

I really don't think much is accomplished by accosting people (either on the street or in a public forum) and calling them out as "sinners" for their beliefs. We are all sinners...and we all hold some beliefs that are in error...every single one of us.

If you can't stand seeing Smith called for being the fraud he was in his wild story of seeing two Gods, his abomination of believing in many, and his unconfused adulteries in his polygamy you need to at least stop with the witness of "I'm ok, you're ok".. Either that of leave those of us willing to explain to them the truth and put down those that would call that truth a lie and put a lie in it's place and call it truth.. IHS jim

No, I will not leave the "witnessing" to street screechers, alone. Please, James, pray about the arrogance with which you try to persuade people. It really, really gets in the way. That is some "truth" that I was impressed by the Spirit to give you. I hope you will accept it in the same vain you believe your "truth telling" should be accepted, by the Mormons. You expect people to listen to you, when you are disrespectful of them, as people, but usually, when you are treated the same way, you want that person to GO AWAY!! So, why would you expect different behavior from those you are treating disrespectfully? Actually, most of the Mormons take it very well, compared to you!

As for Joseph Smith, I have some similar feelings about him, as you do, and I don't mind saying that, but it's not going to be an emphasis, when I am talking to LDS...if I really want them to listen to me and take me seriously.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I don't hate Calvinism. I just think it's a wrong interpretation of "some" things, in the Bible, mainly in the area of how God uses His supreme sovereignty.

But the main issue you have with Calvinism is the same issue you have with your belief. Yet you still criticize Calvinism. Why is that?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Is it fair to say that you do not have the "ability" to keep the ALL of the commandments?

why not?

there is a commandment to "Love one another as I have loved you"

Is there any reason I cant keep this?....nope.

Did I keep t today?.....yes.

Did I lack anything, or did I have something extra today?.......nope.

[alanmolstad]

so its the same with any law or commandment found in the christian faith...

The yoke of Christ is easy...no heavy lifting.

If we are told to do something, its because we can.....and we dont need to struggle to do it too!

"Do on to others".....is this hard to do?...nope.
If it were hard it would not be part of the christian faith.

What a pointless faith we would have if we could not do what we believe God wants.....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But the main issue you have with Calvinism is the same issue you have with your belief. Yet you still criticize Calvinism. Why is that?

Not sure I understand what you mean? I don't have a general problem of unbelief. I have a problem with "some" of Calvin's interpretations.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I will not leave the "witnessing" to street screechers, alone. ......

you go girl!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I take it from your answer that you don't have "free will" to keep ALL of the commandments.

Thats silly and you know it.......there is no way a person can look at any of my answers to any of the questions and issues I have addressed and come to such a conclusion.

You are just making stuff up now.....

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)

This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Where was that atoning sacrifice at?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not sure I understand what you mean? I don't have a general problem of unbelief. I have a problem with "some" of Calvin's interpretations.

Your main objection that you have voiced to me about Calvinism is the following (last sentence below)

According to Calvinism man has a choice to either follow the commandment or break them. Man also has a choice to either follow Christ or reject him. However in man's unregenerate state because of his his sin nature he desires to sin and wants nothing to do with Christ. You have voiced your criticism that man really does not really have a choice and that this would make it God's fault.

So let's take a look at YOUR (Libby's) beliefs below which has the exact same issue that you raised with your objection of Calvinism

1. We have all been given commandments to follow
2. We all have a choice to either follow the commandments or to disobey them
3. We are responsible for out choices and will be held responsible.
4. We are incapable of keeping ALL of the commandments
5. The basis for sending anyone to Hell is breaking the commandments
6. Therefore man is not responsible because he really didn't have a choice to keep ALL of the commandments because he is incapable to do so therefore God is responsible.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Yes, I know that Mormons don't believe they can save themselves. I think I made a whole thread about that, here, somewhere. It's the faith/works thread.

The difference I see is that LDS doctrine includes works as a necessary part of salvation, whereas mainstream believes it is all the work of Jesus Christ (that he is working through us).

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your main objection that you have voiced to me about Calvinism is the following (last sentence below)

According to Calvinism man has a choice to either follow the commandment or break them. Man also has a choice to either follow Christ or reject him. However in man's unregenerate state because of his his sin nature he desires to sin and wants nothing to do with Christ. You have voiced your criticism that man really does not really have a choice and that this would make it God's fault.

Billy, could we keep this discussion to one thread? I feel like I'm answering the same posts twice. Not your fault....I know we have kind of been wandering all over the board with this discussion, but I would really like to confine it "somewhere". Maybe, on the thread where I already addressed this?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, could we keep this discussion to one thread? I feel like I'm answering the same posts twice. Not your fault....I know we have kind of been wandering all over the board with this discussion, but I would really like to confine it "somewhere". Maybe, on the thread where I already addressed this?

We could bring the discussion back to reason for faith.. Sir said that if the Gold Plates available that wouldn't make people believe in mormonism anymore than they do now.. I tend to agree.. As long as another gospel that is not the same as the Gospel Paul preached to the Church it doesn't matter who or what teaches that other gospel.. They are accursed..

It would be interesting through The BofA was so successfully translated we can depend that even if the plates did exist Smith would have been shown as inventing the translation.. IHS jim

[neverending]

[QUOTE=The Pheonix;156113]This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Phoenix, what is needed is your definition of what salvation is to you. Would you please give me your definition?

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Where was that atoning sacrifice at?

It began in the Garden of Gethsemane, and ended when he said "It is finished". Which is spelled out in the Gospels, and in almost ever hymnal in every Church, we sing of the Garden of Gethsemane.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

It began in the Garden of Gethsemane, and ended when he said "It is finished". Which is spelled out in the Gospels, and in almost ever hymnal in every Church, we sing of the Garden of Gethsemane.

Oh, it did? Is there anything in the Old or New Testament confirming what you just said.
It seem to me Paul, said, " I preach Christ crucified!"
I have never heard a Christian say, " I preach Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane."
Help us out here, and I"d be must appreciated.