A "what if" question for critics.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I thought that my answer was completely honest. If you tell me how God answered you prayer then I might be able to provide more insight.

No, the answer isn't what I said wasn't honest. You said you will not speak to other people's experience, but then you demand that other people speak to your experience. I gave you my best guess as to why you didn't get an answer to your prayer as you claim. I'm simply asking you to give me your best guess as to why I did receive an answer to my prayer as I claim. I answered you with the same amount of knowledge that I have of you and that you have of me, but you don't want to answer me. So that's fine. That would seem to be the end of this discussion.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Libby

I would like to read it. Why don't you want to give me a scripture reference? I don't think that's too much to ask.

Just read Abraham. It's five chapters, like you said. Find the one that speaks of God's creations. I don't think that is too much to ask either.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

No, the answer isn't what I said wasn't honest. You said you will not speak to other people's experience, but then you demand that other people speak to your experience. I gave you my best guess as to why you didn't get an answer to your prayer as you claim. I'm simply asking you to give me your best guess as to why I did receive an answer to my prayer as I claim. I answered you with the same amount of knowledge that I have of you and that you have of me, but you don't want to answer me. So that's fine. That would seem to be the end of this discussion.

I have to have more information about the exact nature of your answer to be able to give you a decent answer. Please tell me how God answered your prayer?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have to have more information about the exact nature of your answer to be able to give you a decent answer. Please tell me how God answered your prayer?

No you don't. I didn't have any added info from you when you expected an answer. But I am stepping away now anyway, so if you want to give it a shot I'd like to see it. If you are only going to wait for me to lead you along with more personal info I won't be doing that.

How about just answer generally.

Why do faithful LDS members claim that the promise worked for them?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

I didn't have any added info from you when you expected an answer.

No answer is no answer. I didn't receive anything that I perceived as a witness. I don't know what else to add to that. I followed the steps as outlined and should of received an answer if the promise is indeed true. But I didn't.

Originally Posted by Sir

Why do faithful LDS members claim that the promise worked for them?

I can't give an insightful answer to your question unless I have more specific information. For example if you said that your answer to prayer was that you felt that it was right. Then I could address that specific claim. In this instance feeling that something is right is not specific for Mormonism. People in all religions feel that what they believe is right. Two mutually exclusive beliefs can't possibly be true. If truth is based solely on a feeling then everything is true.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Your experiences do not cons***ute what is truth or not. Just because you and billy believe the Moroni promise is false doesn't make it so. When you tall a person searching for the truth that they just need to ask God and he will show them where to find it, and they feel that they have asked but have not received an answer, you don't claim that God was simply lying or that his gospel is untrue, do you?

There is no such promise in the Church.. The promises we have are received by faith in Jesus. Faith is believing that He is who He said He is and has done what He said He has done and will do all He said he will do whether you feel like He has or not.. Feelings are not a sign of Christian faith. James told us what those signs are that we can see them in ourselves and other may also see them in us:

Not to be a respecter of persons (James 2:3), but show love to the poor (James 2:6), understand your guilt before a Holy God (James 2:10), don't commit adultery, or kill (James 2:11), Show mercy to all, cloth the naked and feed the hungry (James 2:13,16)..

God never lied in this whole process. It was Smith who was the liar.. There were no plates hidden on the hillside. There was no angel to give a message of his people.. The work of Jesus was finished in the cross and so announced by Him. The Father, one with the Son, agreed that and the veil of the Temple was torn in half allowing all who will come access to God in His Glory.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

There is no such promise in the Church.. The promises we have are received by faith in Jesus. Faith is believing that He is who He said He is and has done what He said He has done and will do all He said he will do whether you feel like He has or not.. Feelings are not a sign of Christian faith. James told us what those signs are that we can see them in ourselves and other may also see them in us:

Not to be a respecter of persons (James 2:3), but show love to the poor (James 2:6), understand your guilt before a Holy God (James 2:10), don't commit adultery, or kill (James 2:11), Show mercy to all, cloth the naked and feed the hungry (James 2:13,16)..

God never lied in this whole process. It was Smith who was the liar.. There were no plates hidden on the hillside. There was no angel to give a message of his people.. The work of Jesus was finished in the cross and so announced by Him. The Father, one with the Son, agreed that and the veil of the Temple was torn in half allowing all who will come access to God in His Glory.. IHS jim

There is no promise in the church that says ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you?

I won't try and respond to the other tangential arguments that you made.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

There is no promise in the church that says ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you?

I won't try and respond to the other tangential arguments that you made.

You didn't understand at all now did you? There are no conditions on that promise.. Can you see any.. Where does it say Be faithful and I will give you truth? Jesus is the truth you can only have that truth is you accept it.. will give you any more truth than He is anywhere in the scripture? It never says "If you will be faithful I will give you truth".. The Bible tells us that He was given to us and He is TRUTH!.. So ask for Him, Knock and He will open to you, look for Him, He is not hard to find.. Where are those conditions that Smith inserted into His promise.. And His promise is about a book; it isn't about Jesus at all.. The Bible is about finding Jesus. Ask for Him and he will come into you, Seek Him and He will be present with you, Knock and he will open the gates of heaven to you..

Do you still think these two promises are alike? They have nothing to do one with the other.. One shows is the way to God , forgiveness, and acceptance as His child.. The other is about a man's work.. Open your heart to the Jesus of the Bible and left Him in.. He who is the God that has been GOD from everlasting and will continue alone as God to everlasting.. When He comes into you it will change your heart and you mind.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Bump for sir

Originally Posted by Billyray

I can't give an insightful answer to your question unless I have more specific information. For example if you said that your answer to prayer was that you felt that it was right. Then I could address that specific claim. In this instance feeling that something is right is not specific for Mormonism. People in all religions feel that what they believe is right. Two mutually exclusive beliefs can't possibly be true. If truth is based solely on a feeling then everything is true.

[alanmolstad]

I quote from the OP
"So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?"



Here is my answer:

It does not matter.
it does not matter how much a person believes that the Golden Plates are real.
it does not matter if i received them myself, from an angel, with all the company of heaven singing "Holy Holy holy"

it does not matter if i looked up and saw God's hands lowering them down to be in person.

None of that matters.......if

If what is on the plates disagrees with the bible and with the christian faith as found in the bible.
If it does, then I would reject them and the god who gave them to me.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I quote from the OP
"So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?"



Here is my answer:

It does not matter.
it does not matter how much a person believes that the Golden Plates are real.
it does not matter if i received them myself, from an angel, with all the company of heaven singing "Holy Holy holy"

it does not matter if i looked up and saw God's hands lowering them down to be in person.

None of that matters.......if

If what is on the plates disagrees with the bible and with the christian faith as found in the bible.
If it does, then I would reject them and the god who gave them to me.

That really says a lot. You are saying that you trust your own interpretation of scripture over God. In your quote, you don't say "I think I saw God's hand..." or " what appeared to be God's hand...". You don't qualify your statement, so you would turn God away because you trust your own knowledge over God's. Very interesting.

[alanmolstad]

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."


So how would I put this verse into practice?....

The way I would is that if one day an angel from heaven should appear to me as I walked alone out in the woods, and gave me a book of teachings that the angel said were from God's own hand- I would put this book to the test of Scripture.

If the book agreed with the Scriptures?....I would thank the angel and bring this book to the church.

If the book disagreed with the scriptures?....I would draw my Springfield 1911 and shoot the angel down like a dog.



This should make my views on the issue abundantly clear...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You don't qualify your statement,......

(I notice your post shows you have closely read my words, and this shows me much respect, and so I must thank you for such diligence)

Let me take this opportunity to make myself even more clear on this point that you bring up.


If I went out in the woods, and while there the Lord God Almighty appeared to me,....and with His own hands took a pen and wrote down a set of teachings that He then gave me and commanded me to "Bring to the church".....I would put the Lord's writings to the test of scripture.

If what the Lord has written is in agreement with what is already received in the Bible?...I would bow down to the lord and take His words to the Church.

If what the Lord has written disagrees with what is already received in the Bible?.....I would stomp on the Lord's neck and shoot Him in the head.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If I went out in the woods, and while there the Lord God Almighty appeared to me,....and with His own hands took a pen and wrote down a set of teachings that He then gave me and commanded me to "Bring to the church".....I would put the Lord's writings to the test of scripture.

If what the Lord has written is in agreement with what is already received in the Bible?...I would bow down to the lord and take His words to the Church.

If what the Lord has written disagrees with what is already received in the Bible?.....I would stomp on the Lord's neck and shoot Him in the head.

Again, that is very interesting comment. You are out walking and THE ACTUAL Lord God Almighty appears to you (not someone else but the actual Lord) and you would trust your own interpretation of the Bible over what the ACTUAL Lord told you is very telling. Very telling indeed.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Again, that is very interesting comment. You are out walking and THE ACTUAL Lord God Almighty appears to you (not someone else but the actual Lord) and you would trust your own interpretation of the Bible over what the ACTUAL Lord told you is very telling. Very telling indeed.

You are not asking me to make it more clear right?....I mean I could try if you are asking, but I just re-read what I have already said on this issue and my point seems very clear to me...

My point in my many clear statements on this question is that Galatians 1:8 takes priority over ANY of my experiences....

ANY experience!......regardless of how absolutely sure I was that it was truly an angel sent from God that was standing in front of me....

This is because the warning of Paul is clear.

NO MATTER WHAT!......NO MATTER WHO APPEARS TO ME!.......
It does not matter, because everything I might experience still has to submit to Galatians 1:8.

Galatians 1:8 is the law that I keep....it takes priority over anyone and anything...any dream I have, any vision I have, any voice I hear, any message I see, and person I meet, any angel that visits, any god that appears...in other words, any experience I might have still has to submit to Galatians 1:8, or I will reject it.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You are not asking me to make it more clear right?....I mean I could try if you are asking, but I just re-read what I have already said on this issue and my point seems very clear to me...

My point in my many clear statements on this question is that Galatians 1:8 takes priority over ANY of my experiences....

ANY experience!......regardless of how absolutely sure I was that it was truly an angel sent from God that was standing in front of me....

This is because the warning of Paul is clear.

NO MATTER WHAT!......NO MATTER WHO APPEARS TO ME!.......
It does not matter, because everything I might experience still has to submit to Galatians 1:8.

Galatians 1:8 is the law that I keep....it takes priority over anyone and anything...any dream I have, any vision I have, any voice I hear, any message I see, and person I meet, any angel that visits, any god that appears...in other words, any experience I might have still has to submit to Galatians 1:8, or I will reject it.

But the ***umption that you are going on is that your interpretation of the gospel of what the apostles first presented is the one that they actually presented. Again, you are trusting that what you believe in is the actual gospel that was presented back then over the ACTUAL Lord presenting to what HE wants you to know.

[alanmolstad]

any experience.....must submit to the scriptures.

the moment that the bringer of a new message might try to wiggle off that hook I step on his neck at shoot him in the head.....angel or not...

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

any experience.....must submit to the scriptures.

the moment that the bringer of a new message might try to wiggle off that hook I step on his neck at shoot him in the head.....angel or not...

That is fine if you want to maintain that. You keep missing the emphasis I'm trying to make and that is you are trusting YOUR interpretation of what the gospel is OVER God himself telling you what the gospel is. In essence, you know more than God. Again, if you are comfortable maintaining that belief that is your perogative. I just happen to believe God knows more than me.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

any experience.....must submit to the scriptures.

the moment that the bringer of a new message might try to wiggle off that hook I step on his neck at shoot him in the head.....angel or not...

So if you are a pre-tribber, and an angel shows up with the message that the rapture won't occur until after the tribulation, you will have some options to choose from:

1. Accept that your understanding of what the Bible says about the timing of those events was wrong.
2. Stubbornly, and pridefully, cling to your belief that your interpretation of those Bible p***ages cannot be wrong, no matter what, so you shoot the angel in the head.

What if Saul of Tarsus had clung to his belief that his animosity toward Christians was founded in his infallible, inerrant understanding of the Tanakh? What if Saul's motto had been "I don't care if Jesus Himself shows up and tells me that I was wrong about what the scriptures say, I'm right and anyone who comes to tell me I'm wrong, I'm a shoot Him in the head" ?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

So if you are a pre-tribber, and an angel shows up with the message that the rapture won't occur until after the tribulation, you will have some options to choose from:

1. Accept that your understanding of what the Bible says about the timing of those events was wrong.
2. Stubbornly, and pridefully, cling to your belief that your interpretation of those Bible p***ages cannot be wrong, no matter what, so you shoot the angel in the head.

What if Saul of Tarsus had clung to his belief that his animosity toward Christians was founded in his infallible, inerrant understanding of the Tanakh? What if Saul's motto had been "I don't care if Jesus Himself shows up and tells me that I was wrong about what the scriptures say, I'm right and anyone who comes to tell me I'm wrong, I'm a shoot Him in the head" ?

You have done a great *** of describing how many LDS feel about their church. I have heard it said that "I don't care if you prove that the LDS church is false, I will never leave it". We still show that the first vision was an evolving story. We show that the Bible, or the BofM DON'T teach LDS doctrines such as the physical nature of God, priesthood, and works based salvation. We show where Joseph Smith changed God from being the Being that is changeless, who speaks and preforms what He has said and never offers excuses for failure because He never fails. We have shown that mormonism has created a weak God that can't make a way for men to keep His commandments. A god that has to take back commandments He gave, to cause new and everlasting ordinances to be revoked. A God that allowed a man, a prophet, to teach a new and different God, and that God being a mere man, the man Adam..

Mormonism has broken the Law, turned away from the Lord God to idols invented by a man, invented their own priesthoods, and allow God to fail all the while insisting that they are God's one and only true church.. Your "What ifs" conform to mormonism much more than the controversy of the beliefs of Pre, Mid, or Post trib rapture.. In them you don't find anyone denying that the traditional Jesus is God.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

This is why Paul warns us so carefully against the very same stuff that Smith and the Mormons all fell for.

Paul tells us that it don't matter a hoot who the person is who shows up with a new teaching,(a holy man, an angel, or even God himself, its all a moot point) the thing Paul tells us to do is put the teachings of the person to the test of Scripture.

This is the best way to not be confused into thinking a demon is a good angel.

Remember a demon from Hell is not going to appear to us in a red cape and horns...LOL
Rather the Bible tells us that Satan appears to us as an angel of heaven....

The trick to remember is to disregard who you think brings you this new message, and to just be clear-headed enough to take this new teaching and compare it to the scriptures.

This is how we learn that whatever it was that did or did not appear to Smith, we know it was not an angel from heaven.

The same is true if one day I was out walking in the woods and saw a being of light with wings holding a book of new teachings he wanted me to have.
I would disregard who I thought the being was, and simply take the teachings and put them up against what the bible teaches.


If it is in 100% agreement with the bible?....then it's a valid angel and I would listen to him.

If its in disagreement with the bible?......I would stomp on the faker's neck and soot him in the head.

[Snow Patrol]

You don't have to clarify it any more than you have. You trust your own knowledge of what the Bible says over God's knowledge. Plain and simple.

I just find it interested that one would hold to that belief knowing that so many people have come to different conclusions on what the Bible says yet they use the same Bible to come to their beliefs. It is just interesting.

[alanmolstad]

Once again,,,Im taking myself out of the decision...as we have been commanded to do!>>>>

Pauls words are clear....

Paul didnt say, "But if the angel who hands you the false teachings looks like a good angel?..then its okay to just believe him regardless of what the Bible says"


NO!


We are to not care a hoot who we think just handed us the new teachings!

Paul tells us to test the teachings....case-closed.



a question>


So....lets say Im walking in the woods and I see a being with wings, and this being hands me a book of new teachings.
How do I decided if this winged-being is an angel or a demon?

[alanmolstad]

a question:
How do I decided if this winged-being with a new bunch of teachings is an angel or a demon?

by his handshake?...LOL

by his color?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Once again,,,Im taking myself out of the decision...as we have been commanded to do!>>>>

Pauls words are clear....

Paul didnt say, "But if the angel who hands you the false teachings looks like a good angel?..then its okay to just believe him regardless of what the Bible says"


NO!


We are to not care a hoot who we think just handed us the new teachings!

Paul tells us to test the teachings....case-closed.

How can you honestly say you take yourself out of the decision? You read the Bible and come to a conclusion on what it says. Someone else reads the same Bible and comes to a different conclusion. So person A gets visited by a being and decides that what the being says is incorrect based on his conclusions. Person B gets visited and decides what is said is correct based on his different conclusions. You base your decisions on whether this being is good or not is determined by YOUR understanding of the Bible.

a question>


So....lets say Im walking in the woods and I see a being with wings, and this being hands me a book of new teachings.
How do I decided if this winged-being is an angel or a demon?

How did Saul know he was visited by an angel and not the devil?