A "what if" question for critics.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You don't have to clarify it any more than you have. You trust your own knowledge of what the Bible says over God's knowledge. Plain and simple.

I just find it interested that one would hold to that belief knowing that so many people have come to different conclusions on what the Bible says yet they use the same Bible to come to their beliefs. It is just interesting.

Whose knowledge wrote the Bible? Is it the word of God as the LDS creed demands it to be? If the Bible is the word of God then using it for doctrine (What you believe), for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness is reliance on God's knowledge and not on my own.. PLAIN AN SIMPLE.

I believe only what the Bible teaches.. I believe that God is one Lord (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29). I believe that the Father is God (John 20:17). I believe that Jesus is God (John 1:1). I believe that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). I believer that by holding faith in Jesus I will never die but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16). I believe that by God's grace I have been saved through Faith in Jesus and not of my works (Eph 2:8-9).. I believe I can Know I have eternal live because I believe on Jesus (1 John 5:13).

You can see those same promises. You seem to reject them by either completely rejecting them or adding to them the knowledge of your own or the knowledge of other men who you trust more than the promises of Jesus to see to it that His word never dies. His promise that He will always be with us.. Still when I believe what the Bible teaches instead of what I think it should teach you accuse me of trusting in my own knowledge.. Ask anyone if that makes sense.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

How can you honestly say you take yourself out of the decision?

we have to rely on the words of saint paul.....his words warn us, but also guide us out of danger.

Look, there are many false gods in the world, many lying spirits, many fallen angels....Im sure there are going to be times when we are faced with someone who brings word of a new teaching....

This is just what Paul said would happen......and why his advice on how to handle this situation is so key to not falling for the lie of the devil.

So based of what Paul has taught , I know what I would do, and what I continue to do in regards to new teachings that come to us from (as Paul warned us of) "Angels from heaven"

[alanmolstad]

So....this is how I would handle the situation shroud I ever see an angel, or should someone ever approach me with a new teaching that he says came from an angel from heaven..

I would say - "Fine, I got no problem at all with angels showing up with a message for the church"

Then I would go on to say - "The fact that the message that has been given comes from an angel is a moot point. The Bible warns us that Satan can also appear as an angel from heaven too. So how do i tell if it truly was an angel from heaven, or a demon from Hell?.....Thats easy....compare this message that is given to us with what we already have received in the Bible"

So that is what I would do....take this or any other message that is said to have come down from above and put it to the test of Scripture.

Now.....What if Im getting ready to compare it to the Bible and the angel tells me that he has a problem with me doing that?...My simple response is I would stomp on his neck and shoot him in the head.

And, if the angel were to try to get me to doubt the Scriptures as Satan did in the Garden?...("Did God really say...?") then my response would be the same,,,stomp on his neck, shoot him in the head.


If on the other hand, the Lord did send the angel, then all that the angel says has to be in 100% harmony with the bible.
If it is in agreement?...then I got no issues with it.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So....this is how I would handle the situation shroud I ever see an angel, or should someone ever approach me with a new teaching that he says came from an angel from heaven..

I would say - "Fine, I got no problem at all with angels showing up with a message for the church"

Then I would go on to say - "The fact that the message that has been given comes from an angel is a moot point. The Bible warns us that Satan can also appear as an angel from heaven too. So how do i tell if it truly was an angel from heaven, or a demon from Hell?.....Thats easy....compare this message that is given to us with what we already have received in the Bible"

So that is what I would do....take this or any other message that is said to have come down from above and put it to the test of Scripture.

Now.....What if Im getting ready to compare it to the Bible and the angel tells me that he has a problem with me doing that?...My simple response is I would stomp on his neck and shoot him in the head.

And, if the angel were to try to get me to doubt the Scriptures as Satan did in the Garden?...("Did God really say...?") then my response would be the same,,,stomp on his neck, shoot him in the head.


If on the other hand, the Lord did send the angel, then all that the angel says has to be in 100% harmony with the bible.
If it is in agreement?...then I got no issues with it.

The problem Alanmolstad is that from the very beginning of our exchange I made it clear that we have not been talking about whether or not the being was an angel. Remember, to start you did not have any qualifiers, you knew it was God. That is why I've been questioning you on your comments. Somehow you've now switched into not being sure and so you have to check it against the Bible. You've changed what you've been talking about while I've maintained the original premise and that is that you KNEW it was God and still would question him because you believe your understanding of the Bible is better than God telling you something.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So....this is how I would handle the situation shroud I ever see an angel, or should someone ever approach me with a new teaching that he says came from an angel from heaven..

I would say - "Fine, I got no problem at all with angels showing up with a message for the church"

Then I would go on to say - "The fact that the message that has been given comes from an angel is a moot point. The Bible warns us that Satan can also appear as an angel from heaven too. So how do i tell if it truly was an angel from heaven, or a demon from Hell?.....Thats easy....compare this message that is given to us with what we already have received in the Bible"

So that is what I would do....take this or any other message that is said to have come down from above and put it to the test of Scripture.

Now.....What if Im getting ready to compare it to the Bible and the angel tells me that he has a problem with me doing that?...My simple response is I would stomp on his neck and shoot him in the head.

And, if the angel were to try to get me to doubt the Scriptures as Satan did in the Garden?...("Did God really say...?") then my response would be the same,,,stomp on his neck, shoot him in the head.


If on the other hand, the Lord did send the angel, then all that the angel says has to be in 100% harmony with the bible.
If it is in agreement?...then I got no issues with it.

I'd ask the "angel" whether or not Jesus came in the flesh. This really works. When the apparition at Medjugorje pretending to be Mary was asked that question, the "woman" hedged and tip toed all around it. Never got around to actually saying, "yes, Jesus came in the flesh." However, the "visionaries" didn't seem to have a problem! As far as Mormonism goes, they teach that Satan's brother came in the flesh, an obvious diabolical twist.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

The problem Alanmolstad is that from the very beginning of our exchange I made it clear that we have not been talking about whether or not the being was an angel. Remember, to start you did not have any qualifiers, you knew it was God. That is why I've been questioning you on your comments. Somehow you've now switched into not being sure and so you have to check it against the Bible. You've changed what you've been talking about while I've maintained the original premise and that is that you KNEW it was God and still would question him because you believe your understanding of the Bible is better than God telling you something.

You can ask me any questions about any post i have made...they all are the same and all are based on the same text.

Everything I have said is based on the text that we received from saint Paul about not listening to himself, or even a angel from heaven if the message is different that what we have already received.

Now if there is anything I have posted that you think is different than what im saying now...just name the post for me to go have a look at it and i will let you know what i was aiming at with it,,,,,


(From your post you seem to have the idea that I am changing my tune about what Im saying, and if you have gotten this idea then I have to be more careful in how I write.
I never aimed to write to you in a style that suggests this is an idea of mine that is evolving...LOL
I sure thought I have been very careful to write down my thoughts as clearly as I knew how...I have not tried to use any symbolic wording, nor just drop hints....But rather I have tried my best to really spell it out simply and as clearly as I could.
If along the way you have read something I have written yesterday or the day before that seems to be different than what Im saying now, please draw my attention to it so that I can have a look...I may have need to edit things differently in the future that might seem confusing from the Mormon mindset )

[alanmolstad]

So to be very clear...Paul tells us that even if he comes to us with a message that is different than what he has alread given us, that we should not listen.

Paul also tells us clearly that if even a angel from heaven comes with a different message we should not listen.

Now building on this i have added the idea that even if the giant hand of god, REACHED down from heaven with a book for us, and that book taught a different gospel than what we already have in the bible, we should not listen.

so.....this means that even if i was 100% sure that the person speaking to me was Saint Paul himself, right there in the flesh, yet if he started teaching a different Gospel I would turn away and not go back.

That is what Saint Paul told us to do, so that is what I would do!








Even if I was 100% sure I was listening to a true angel of heaven, it would not matter squat to me if what that angel said was different than what we have already received in the Bible...

That is what Saint Paul told us to do, so that is what I would do!






Even if I was 10MILLION % sure that it was God himself who has appeared to me, if what God said was different than what we read in the bible i would not listen....and would shake the dust from my shoes as I walked away.


That is not exactly word-for-word what Paul said to do, but it is based on what he said to do.





Why would I act this way?*....because we were warned this type of **** would happen to the church one day by Paul....
And we are told that the "Faith was ONCE FOR ALL" given to us.

There is nothing new on the way...nothing different to learn....Nothing later to be restated....

The Faith was ONCE for all given.....

So any new "Faith" is fake.
any Angels that teach different are demons
Any Apostle that preaches differently is a False teacher.
Any "God" that goes against what is already received in the bible is Satan....





* this is the answer to the question asked in post #111

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So any new "Faith" is fake.
any angels that teach different are demons
Any Apostle that preaches differently that the message that was once for all given is a False teacher.
Any "God" that goes against what is already received in the bible is Satan....

I think if you check you will see that every one of my posts is in agreement with what Im saying above.
That because we were warned by Paul against the wild stories of angels with new teachings, and because we have been told clearly that the Christian faith was once for all given, we know that any new different stuff is fake...

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You can ask me any questions about any post i have made...they all are the same and all are based on the same text.

Everything I have said is based on the text that we received from saint Paul about not listening to himself, or even a angel from heaven if the message is different that what we have already received.

Now if there is anything I have posted that you think is different than what im saying now...just name the post for me to go have a look at it and i will let you know what i was aiming at with it,,,,,


(From your post you seem to have the idea that I am changing my tune about what Im saying, and if you have gotten this idea then I have to be more careful in how I write.
I never aimed to write to you in a style that suggests this is an idea of mine that is evolving...LOL
I sure thought I have been very careful to write down my thoughts as clearly as I knew how...I have not tried to use any symbolic wording, nor just drop hints....But rather I have tried my best to really spell it out simply and as clearly as I could.
If along the way you have read something I have written yesterday or the day before that seems to be different than what Im saying now, please draw my attention to it so that I can have a look...I may have need to edit things differently in the future that might seem confusing from the Mormon mindset )

"Here is my answer:

It does not matter.
it does not matter how much a person believes that the Golden Plates are real.
it does not matter if i received them myself, from an angel, with all the company of heaven singing "Holy Holy holy"

it does not matter if i looked up and saw God's hands lowering them down to be in person.

None of that matters.......if"


In the bolded part above you do not use any qualifiers. You say even if it was God, and you knew beyond doubt, giving you the information you would trust your own interpretation of what the Bible is over God's information. Then you started talking about a "being" visiting you. I was questioning how you would turn away God because you know better than God what the Bible says. I just find that interesting.

[alanmolstad]

"You say even if it was God, and you knew beyond doubt, giving you the information you would trust your own interpretation of what the Bible is over God's information. "

You must be reading some other guy's posts....have I ever used the word "Interpretation"?

Or is that something you are adding to my post, then turning around and asking me to defend a term I did not use?

I have tried to be careful to use the correct words and terms to carry the idea I was attempting to get across.
If I ever used that term in all of this discussion you have a question about, then point to where.
But if you are adding things to my posts and then pointing to them added bits as the place where I'm in error?....LOL
Then you are kinda in a different world and don't need me getting in the way...LOL





All I can do is look at posts that I did write - look at the words that I did use and see if I have or have not worded them correctly?...
If you have a problem with ANYTHING I have written just point to the post and the words I did write and I can have a look.

But I cant well defend words you dreamed up!



I have written a great many things.
Have a look at all what I have said, and if I actually have said something you question..
(Some thing I actually wrote, not just something people ***ume I must have meant) ...then list where you would want me to reexamine.



You know what......


This reminds me of the time that a member of a CULT attacked me because they said I had written that "Men can become Gods"
They went on and on in many posts telling everyone how I had posted that I believed that "Men can become gods"

Finally I went after the guy after trying to get him to stop by telling him that putting words in my mouth like he was doing is against the rules and I would get him banned for doing so!

That got his attention and so he finally went looking for the post that he said that I posted that "men become gods"....and do you know what he was looking at?

All he had was one time I posted that in the incarnation Jesus had both a Human nature and a God nature........that was it.

Its just the basic understanding of the christian faith about who Jesus is....the normal Trinity view.

But he went looking for something to use against me, and so to him my words were close enough to what he "wanted" me to say so he just went off and faked to everyone on the forum that I had said "men become gods" when he knew better and was only attempting to put words in my mouth that he had dreamed up ....


Something he learned to never do again by the way.....

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"You say even if it was God, and you knew beyond doubt, giving you the information you would trust your own interpretation of what the Bible is over God's information. "

You must be reading some other guy's posts....have I ever used the word "Interpretation"?

Or is that something you are adding to my post, then turning around and asking me to defend a term I did not use?

Ok, let's break this down a little. In your post that I quoted, and clarified with you, there were no qualifiers that it was God appearing to you. You KNOW it is God.

Second part of this is that even though you KNOW it is God that is appearing before you, you would test what HE is saying against the Bible. Right?

Ok, do we both agree that God knows everything and that everything includes the Bible?

Can we both agree that both you and I know less than God about the Bible?

Can we both agree that two different people can come to different beliefs using the same Bible?

If so, how do you know that your understanding of the Bible is the correct one? Or how do you know your "intrepretation" of the Bible is correct?

So if you acknowledge that both you and I know less than God, how would you feel comfortable questioning God on what HE was telling you?

[alanmolstad]

Im still editing the speellen...give it aq moment to be in final form

[alanmolstad]

there....that post is done now.....half was written on a phone with ZERO spell-checking...so it takes a while to get things up as i want them to look and be easy to read....


Thanks...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

, how would you feel comfortable questioning God on what HE was telling you?

see post 107

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see post 107

One of the key things that I'm not sure you answered is related to this "Paul tells us that even if he comes to us with a message that is different than what he has alread given us".

How do you know that your understanding of the Bible is the correct one? Maybe Paul or God is trying to tell you are wrong.

I've tried getting an answer by asking if two different people can come to two different beliefs from the same Bible, then how does one know their understanding is correct?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

One of the key things that I'm not sure you answered is related to this "Paul tells us that even if he comes to us with a message that is different than what he has alread given us".

How do you know that your understanding of the Bible is the correct one? Maybe Paul or God is trying to tell you are wrong.

I've tried getting an answer by asking if two different people can come to two different beliefs from the same Bible, then how does one know their understanding is correct?

what does the bible tell us to do?.........(you should know this by now...)

Who does the bible say were more " nobel"?
What did they do when they wanted to know what was true?
What did they use to learn the truth?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what does the bible tell us to do?.........(you should know this by now...)

Who does the bible say were more " nobel"?
What did they do when they wanted to know what was true?
What did they use to learn the truth?

Yes, the Bible does tell us to search the scriptures. That is a good thing, absolutely. However, that does not answer my questions.

1. If two people read the same Bible and come away with different beliefs, whose beliefs are correct?
2. How do you know you have the correct understanding of the Bible?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Yes, the Bible does tell us to search the scriptures. That is a good thing, absolutely. However, that does not answer my questions.

1. If two people read the same Bible and come away with different beliefs, whose beliefs are correct?
2. How do you know you have the correct understanding of the Bible?

I have to check to be sure, but I think I answered this in post 107...

Just take your question and change it from "two people" to "me and an angel from heaven"...or "Me and God Almighty"...its the same basic idea and my answer works in both cases...

[alanmolstad]

yes its 107

[alanmolstad]

as I have said, my answer is always the same to all these questions...so get ready to be referred back to #107 if you want to keep asking the same question...

My #107 answer is based on the text where your question actually came up in the life of Paul.
Acts 17:11....

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."


There is our example....you put all things to the test of scripture.
There is your answer!
There is your only answer by the way...


2 people disagree?....take it to the scriptures, put things to the test.
Angel brings a message?...take it to the scriptures, put it to the test.

Even if you are sure that it is God who just said it to you....it's a moot point if what is said is different than what we have in the Bible.
There is no other authority.....there is no other means to decide what is true....there is no other place to appeal to...


This is the same answer I have given on this topic from the start...and will continue to be the only answer that I have until the end of time.

The only authority given to us to find the truth is the Scriptures.

Any and all new teachings must submit to them.


Now if you want me to keep pointing you to my #107 post, feel free to keep asking me over and over the same questions I answered there....I dont mind...I have the free time to day .

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as I have said, my answer is always the same to all these questions...so get ready to be referred back to #107 if you want to keep asking the same question...

My #107 answer is based on the text where your question actually came up in the life of Paul.
Acts 17:11....

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."


There is our example....you put all things to the test of scripture.
There is your answer!
There is your only answer by the way...


2 people disagree?....take it to the scriptures, put things to the test.
Angel brings a message?...take it to the scriptures, put it to the test.

Even if you are sure that it is God who just said it to you....it's a moot point if what is said is different than what we have in the Bible.
There is no other authority.....there is no other means to decide what is true....there is no other place to appeal to...


This is the same answer I have given on this topic from the start...and will continue to be the only answer that I have until the end of time.

The only authority given to us to find the truth is the Scriptures.

Any and all new teachings must submit to them.


Now if you want me to keep pointing you to my #107 post, feel free to keep asking me over and over the same questions I answered there....I dont mind...I have the free time to day .

The truth is arbitrary, not absolute, according to you.

Well, most people will say that truth is absolulte. Most will say that if two people come to different conclusions on what the Bible says then they both can't be right. You believe otherwise apparently. I really don't believe that God believes in arbitrary truth.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

The truth is arbitrary, not absolute, according to you.

Well, most people will say that truth is absolulte. Most will say that if two people come to different conclusions on what the Bible says then they both can't be right. You believe otherwise apparently. I really don't believe that God believes in arbitrary truth.

I have written more than enough words on my own...there is no need to dream up other words for me and them put them in my mouth.

If I have written something you question, then tell me what post?..what sentence?...But dont invent things I did not say and then ask me how do I defend them?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have written more than enough words on my own...there is no need to dream up other words for me and them put them in my mouth.

If I have written something you question, then tell me what post?..what sentence?...But dont invent things I did not say and then ask me how do I defend them?

If you don't believe truth is arbitrary, then how can two people with differing beliefs turn to the same Bible and search it against an experience like we've been talking about. They have already come to different conclusions so if they both get visited by and angel, or God Himself, they are going to get different answers when going back to the Bible. How can they be sure their understanding is the correct one?

Do you agree that two different people who hold different beliefs about the same Bible that they both can't be right?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

If you don't believe truth is arbitrary, then how can two people with differing beliefs turn to the same Bible and search it against an experience like we've been talking about. They have already come to different conclusions so if they both get visited by and angel, or God Himself, they are going to get different answers when going back to the Bible. How can they be sure their understanding is the correct one?

see post #107 & #120

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see post #107 & #120

You keep pointing back to that, but how about you quote what you said in answer to my question because I sure don't see the answer in #107