A "what if" question for critics.

[Snow Patrol]

Nevermind, you are obviously getting frustrated with my not grasping your responses and I'm getting there on not being able to see how your previous post answers my questions so I guess let's call it a night.

[alanmolstad]

ok,,,its like this...

Your question is very much like a situation that came up in the New testiment.

The Bible tells us that Paul was teaching and that there was a very serious debate as to the truth of what paul was teaching?

The Bible tells us how the matter was handled.

ACTS 17:11.....


That is the answer the bible has to your question.
The answer is to take the new teachings to the bible and see if they agree?
That is the Bible's answer....and that is why it's my ONLY answer.

I dont have any other answer.

You can ask over and over, but my answer will always center around ACTS 17:11.

Now in my post #107 I address this point from a slightly different dirrection.
Different because I am talking about a difference of point of view between me and an Angel or between me and God almighty, whereas you have asked a question dealing with a disagreement between "two people".

But the answer I gave in post #107 is close enough to the answer that i would give to your question that we can use it for here.
Like i said, just replace in your question that words "two people" with the example i talked about where Im dealing with "Me and an angel"...or ..."me and God"




The answer in #107 was that i would take the teaching I received from the angel of God, and put it to the test of scripture....

Why do this?.....why do i dare put the Lord's new teaching to the test like this?....
The answer is that this is the command we are given, the only example the bible gives us on how to learn if a teaching is true or not......we appeal to ACTS 17:11 for our guidance.




Thats it.
Thats my answer.
thats my only answer.

I dont say "Flip a coin"
I dont say, "Im thinking of a number between 1 and 10, now guess it"
I dont say, "Lets all join hands, now offer the lucky prayer someone"

My answer is to do what we are told to do.
We are told to take the teachings of anyone to the Scriptures and that is what we should do...case-closed!

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thats it.
Thats my answer.
thats my only answer.

I dont say "Flip a coin"
I dont say, "Im thinking of a number between 1 and 10, now guess it"
I dont say, "Lets all join hands, now offer the lucky prayer someone"

My answer is to do what we are told to do.
We are told to take the teachings of anyone to the Scriptures and that is what we should do...case-closed!

And that is why I say I think you believe in arbitrary truth. Your case-closed answer is only case-closed in your mind BECAUSE of the fact that the one source of truth, the Bible, has yielded many different beliefs of what it says. Even though you don't come out and say it, you are letting each individual decide what the Bible says to them. That is arbitrary truth.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

If you don't believe truth is arbitrary, then how can two people with differing beliefs turn to the same Bible and search it against an experience like we've been talking about. They have already come to different conclusions so if they both get visited by and angel, or God Himself, they are going to get different answers when going back to the Bible. How can they be sure their understanding is the correct one?

Do you agree that two different people who hold different beliefs about the same Bible that they both can't be right?

That is an interesting question that you have raised.

Suppose Person A and Person B have read the Bible, and have come to opposite conclusions about something--for example, whether unborn babies sin even before birth. While these persons are in the midst of arguing over whose interpretation of the Bible is correct, Jesus shows up and says "I want to end the arguing: Person A's interpretation is correct, and Person's B's is not."

According to what Alan seems to have said, Person A would probably say "Thanks, Jesus, for confirming that I have been correctly understanding the Bible regarding this subject."

While Person B would say "I am following Paul's advice: It doesn't matter who appears with a message saying that I am wrong about this, I am supposed to reject anyone who says that my interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, so I reject you, Jesus."

[alanmolstad]

i have shown you how your question is answered in the Text....

if you have a verse that also addresses your question then list it and i would be happy to have a look.

but my answer is the only answer i have..and it is strongly supported in the text.

acts 17:11 we read that Person A had a teaching....Person B put it to the test of Schipture

Person A is Paul...Person B is the church in that city....

So the bible tells us how to handle this issue.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That is an interesting question that you have raised.

Suppose Person A and Person B have read the Bible, and have come to opposite conclusions about something--for example, whether unborn babies sin even before birth. While these persons are in the midst of arguing over whose interpretation of the Bible is correct, Jesus shows up and says "I want to end the arguing: Person A's interpretation is correct, and Person's B's is not."

According to what Alan seems to have said, Person A would probably say "Thanks, Jesus, for confirming that I have been correctly understanding the Bible regarding this subject."

While Person B would say "I am following Paul's advice: It doesn't matter who appears with a message saying that I am wrong about this, I am supposed to reject anyone who says that my interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, so I reject you, Jesus."

How about this....

A Mormon, Trinitarian, and Modalist are walking down the road together. All of sudden Christ appears and says that "I am one with the Father." All three continue walking on thinking they are right according to their testing it against scriptures.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

How about this....

A Mormon, Trinitarian, and Modalist are walking down the road together. All of sudden Christ appears and says that "I am one with the Father." All three continue walking on thinking they are right according to their testing it against scriptures.

Yes the mormon adds "In purpose" to the word of Jesus.. The modalist is convinced that Jesus said that because He is the Father in a different form (Mode), and the Chrsitian say "Yes Lord you are fully God, as is the Father, yet I trust you when you taught that The Lord our God is One Lord".. The Mormon put words in the mouth of Jesus, The modalist denies the the evidence from scripture that John the Baptist was witness to each of the persons of God at the baptism of Jesus.. Only the Christian confessed the deity of Jesus, and the Father separately yet still recognized the truthfulness of God word.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

How about this....

A Mormon, Trinitarian, and Modalist are walking down the road together. All of sudden Christ appears and says that "I am one with the Father." All three continue walking on thinking they are right according to their testing it against scriptures.

if you* are a christian...if you look to the bible for your answers to questions about god....then you never do wrong to turn to ACTS 17:11 for guidance when a disagreement comes up about a question.......

You may not find it's answers as fast as the flip of a coin....but we have Gods word that if we seek him we shall find him....





* I mean any of us, not you personally

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes the mormon adds .....

while the question deals with religions that are not christian in nature and so they have answers that are aimed for them...the heart of the issue raised by Snow Patrol is valid.

How do 3 people from different points of view find an answer as to what is truth when they come at it from different directions?


My answer is the only one that works as it is the only one that is supported by the bible.

we must submit to the authority of ACTS 17:11...that is the only path we can walk in...all the others lead sooner or later to a ditch...

[alanmolstad]

so has post #134 wrapped it up enough?

I have not much else to tell you on the issue.
You have asked a normal question that people ask.."How to find the truth?"
And the bible answers this question clearly.
We also have the advantage to read an account where the very same type of question came up in the ministry of Saint Paul himself.

We get to read how the Bible wants us to answer this challenge.

the answer we get is not as quick as the flip of a coin...its not as fast as turning a switch,,,or looking for the answer in the back of the book.

But the answer we got is the best answer because it draws us closer to the lord as we seek our answers....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so has post #134 wrapped it up enough?

It has adequately explained your position. It hasn't persuasively supported it, though.

And the bible answers this question clearly.

Yes, the Bible answers it clearly....in James 1:5-7

We get to read how the Bible wants us to answer this challenge.

Yes, in James 1:5-7

the answer we get is not as quick as the flip of a coin...its not as fast as turning a switch,,,or looking for the answer in the back of the book.
But the answer we got is the best answer because it draws us closer to the lord as we seek our answers....

Yes, using James 1:5-7 as your guide should indeed draw you closer to the Lord as you seek answers.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

It has adequately explained your position. It hasn't persuasively supported it, though.



.

well....Im then going to look of the bright side, and be happy with that...
The most a guy can really hope for is to be given a chance to stand at home plate and get his 3 good swings.

And the James1:5-7 verse has been a good guide for me all along as I have posted on this topic.
I think what the people did at ACTS 17:11 is based on the correct use of James 1:5-7.
Now the James verse is dealing not so much with our topic here, but is about the topic of "WISDOM"

Wisdom to me is what?, I define "wisdom" as the correct use of knowledge gained over time.

In this case of our topic here, good wisdom would be to use the bible to put all things to the test .

This idea of testing teachings by scriptures comes out in this next verse -
1 John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

and that also is supported by the verse at - 1 Thessalonians 5:21
"Test all things; hold fast that which is good."

All these verses deal with the same type of situation we have been talking about here where there is a debate between two or more people as to how to understand and trust a new teaching?

The wisdom spoken of in James 1:5-7 is what leads the people to act as they did when seeking the truth at ACTS 17:11 "These people were more receptive than those in Thessalonica. They were very willing to receive the message, and every day they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if those things were so"

[alanmolstad]

So to sum it up...

The wise thing to do when there is a question about a new teaching that someone brings to the church is to take this new teaching and test it by the Scriptures.


case-closed.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So to sum it up...

The wise thing to do when there is a question about a new teaching that someone brings to the church is to take this new teaching and test it by the Scriptures. case-closed.

And when two people apply that test, and get contradicting answers? Is the case really closed, then?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

And when two people apply that test, and get contradicting answers? Is the case really closed, then?

You keep asking the same question...and I keep telling you about the only answer the Bible gives us...

ACTS 17:11.....


Go read the verse and answer this question..."How long did Bereans examine the Scriptures?"


go read the verse.....I will wait

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

And when two people apply that test, and get contradicting answers? Is the case really closed, then?

my posts that I have pointed to are still my only answer...
its the only answer that works....

Consider....when they have a report in the news that at some store they discovered some counterfeit bills being p***ed, the way they discover them is the the counterfeit bills look different in some way than real bills..

The reason they discover the fake bills is that the police are very familiar with real money....

You learn to spot the fake by studying the real....




(On a side note, I keep seeing you ask the same question over and over like you have an issue in mind that you want to get to? All i can tell you is that the situation in your questions came up in the ACTS verse, and so we dont have to just guess what the answer is, we can read what others did when they had to deal with this issue....But for some reason you keep asking the same question over again, yet you know that the ACTS verse deals with your question and is a great guide for us?......so this hints that you simply have a different answer in mind?
All i can tell you is that "This is the only thing Paul told us to do, so that is what we need to do" and leave it at that....

we need to take all disagreements to the test of scriptures.)

[Phoenix]

The wake-up message for you is that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The wake-up message for you is that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.

we compare any teaching to the scriptures,,,that is the example we are given....that is what i do....

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The wake-up message for you is that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.

Jesus said, "To search the Scriptures."
Joseph Smith jr. said, " Hey babe wanta see my revelation in my pocket?"

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You don't have to clarify it any more than you have. You trust your own knowledge of what the Bible says over God's knowledge. Plain and simple.

I just find it interested that one would hold to that belief knowing that so many people have come to different conclusions on what the Bible says yet they use the same Bible to come to their beliefs. It is just interesting.

Can you show me any conclusions that a group has come to that are different that the pure gospel of Jesus virgin birth, sinless life, subs***ution sacrifice, and resurrected in a glorified Body? Seems to be the same message even among the cults.. The only difference in that the JW and the LDS want to change the nature of Jesus into something less that being the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. No matter what they call it both of them make Jesus a creation rather than the creator.. That is not God's knowledge, but it is a plain and simple lie.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The wake-up message for you is that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.

we study what is true to be able to spot what is false.

we study real money to learn how to spot the counterfeit.

If you want to know how to judge the claims of Joe Smith, you just have to compare them to the Scriptures....just like what was done to Paul's claims at ACTS 17:11.

If they are different, you reject them.
This is the example give us in the bible for determining what is true and what is fake.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we study what is true to be able to spot what is false.
we study real money to learn how to spot the counterfeit.

So in the many areas of doctrine where Christendom is split in half, each side thinking the other side is the counterfeit, how does Christendom decide which is the real money and which is the counterfeit?

This is the example give us in the bible for determining what is true and what is fake.

So in the debate over Pre-trib vs. Post-trib, infant baptism vs. don't baptize infants, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, modern musical instruments for worship music vs. a capella or old-time instruments only, women teaching men at church vs. no female teachers, what is true and what is fake? And what did the Christians who believe the fake doctrines do wrong?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

So in the many areas of doctrine where Christendom is split in half, each side thinking the other side is the counterfeit, how does Christendom decide which is the real money and which is the counterfeit?


So in the debate over Pre-trib vs. Post-trib, infant baptism vs. don't baptize infants, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, modern musical instruments for worship music vs. a capella or old-time instruments only, women teaching men at church vs. no female teachers, what is true and what is fake? And what did the Christians who believe the fake doctrines do wrong?

THE ANSWER is found by clicking on this link > http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...-critics/page5

post number #120


The answer is the same answer....
The same answer I gave a while back ...
Why is the bible's clear answer in this situation so difficult to trust?

The situation in ACTS 17:11 is just like the question you have asked above.(believers struggling to learn if a teaching is correct or not)..and the answer we are given shows us what is the way to handle this situation.

Why is this so hard to grasp?



You need me to repeat my answers again?....perhaps I might be able to use a few new words to say the very same thing I have said before, but would that help?

the bible is so darn clear at acts 17:11 that I dont really have any wiggle-room to come up with new ways to talk about this....

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

THE ANSWER is found by clicking on this link > http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...-critics/page5

post number #120


The answer is the same answer....
The same answer I gave a while back ...
Why is the bible's clear answer in this situation so difficult to trust?

The situation in ACTS 17:11 is just like the question you have asked above.(believers struggling to learn if a teaching is correct or not)..and the answer we are given shows us what is the way to handle this situation.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

Because the Bible doesn't answer it. It tells you to the search the scriptures but the answer then depends on the individual's interpretation of what the Bible says. It goes back to you believe that truth is relative. It all depends on what the individual thinks it says.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Because the Bible doesn't answer it. It tells you to the search the scriptures but the answer then depends on the individual's interpretation of what the Bible says. It goes back to you believe that truth is relative. It all depends on what the individual thinks it says.

So it becomes an endless, futile cycle:

"I need help figuring out whether God wants Christians to baptize kids who are only 1 year old. What should I do? To whom should I go?"

"Go to the Bible. That is the only place God wants you to go, and that is where your answer will be found."

"I went to the Bible, but I am not sure I got the right answer from it, because my pastor went to the Bible and the answer he claims he got is different from the one I got. I am not even sure the answer is in there. So I still need help figuring out whether God wants Christians to baptize kids who are only 1 year old. What should I do now?"

"Go to the Bible....."

"I already did that, and I still don't have any ***urance that I got the right answer, or that the Bible even answers the question. But I did find in the Bible some advice: That I should ask God, and that if I ask Him then the thing I ask for would be given. How about if I follow that advice that I found in the Bible?"

What would you tell this person, Alan?