A "what if" question for critics.

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154645]So in the many areas of doctrine where Christendom is split in half, each side thinking the other side is the counterfeit, how does Christendom decide which is the real money and which is the counterfeit?

I am wondering what you mean by counterfeit? Wouldn't that mean false Christianity. That MUST be a group that calls it's self Christian but refuse to submit to God's instructions.. Maybe a group that teaches some other means of salvation than the simple message of God Grace activated by simple faith in the Jesus described in the Bible..

Do you know how the US Treasury teaches people how to distinguish a fake bill from a real one? They don't show them fakes. They immerse them in the real thing.. Day and night the study what make the real thing, real.. The Bible does show us the REAL Jesus, His REAL salvation. Only those immersed in the lies would have trouble not seeing the truth, even looking hard for it.. Jesus gave it to us in John 3:15-16.

John 3:15-16
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So with the words of Jesus teaching so simply so completely the way to Life why would anyone tell themselves that people get different messages from the scripture?

So in the debate over Pre-trib vs. Post-trib, infant baptism vs. don't baptize infants, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, modern musical instruments for worship music vs. a capella or old-time instruments only, women teaching men at church vs. no female teachers, what is true and what is fake? And what did the Christians who believe the fake doctrines do wrong?

Doctor Walter Martin is the reason I have decided to be post-trib. His doctring on that point was "I am Post-trib, I hope I'm wrong".. In case you have trouble fully understand the significance of that statement It says that the timing of the tribulation DOESN'T matter at all to our eternal life and our place in the household of God. That is made certain when a believer confesses Jesus as their Lord, their savior, and their God.

If salvation is by God's grace through faith in Jesus then anything we do, and I mean anything, be it baptism, singing in unison to a piano, believing that there is no male or female, bond or free in Jesus is not the way to life.. The WAY is Jesus, the truth is Jesus, the Life is Jesus.. Having faith in Him points the way through that truth to Life.. There is nothing else that matters.. NOTHING..

Mormonism has named a fictional being of it's creation Jesus. It has taught that this invention is a God.. The Father became a God far earlier than Jesus.. No one I know in mormonism can explain who in their per-existence the Holy Spirit was.. But He also became a God sometime after the Father was already God.. The mormon prophet came up with that idea of how God became God and actually said that there are three Gods not one.. How do you know if he was right or lost in a polytheistic falsehood? Immerse yourself in God's truth, His word. There you will find teachings that God is One Lord.. That there was no God formed before or after God was God.. The truth is there, all the truth. You don't see it because you will not look. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Because the Bible doesn't answer it. It tells you to the search the scriptures .......

read ACTS 17:11....how long does it say they searched the Scriptures?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

So it becomes an endless, futile cycle:

"I need help figuring out whether God wants Christians to baptize kids who are only 1 year old. What should I do? To whom should I go?"

"Go to the Bible. That is the only place God wants you to go, and that is where your answer will be found."

"I went to the Bible, but I am not sure I got the right answer from it, because my pastor went to the Bible and the answer he claims he got is different from the one I got. I am not even sure the answer is in there. So I still need help figuring out whether God wants Christians to baptize kids who are only 1 year old. What should I do now?"

"Go to the Bible....."

"I already did that, and I still don't have any ***urance that I got the right answer, or that the Bible even answers the question. But I did find in the Bible some advice: That I should ask God, and that if I ask Him then the thing I ask for would be given. How about if I follow that advice that I found in the Bible?"

What would you tell this person, Alan?

You keep thinking..."desperately" thinking that ACTS 17:11 is not our guide...

But it is...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

What would you tell this person, Alan?

The difference between freedom and being a slave is important.
Don't let others coerce you into stating things as "fact"
you know to be false.

The merit of the Christian Faith is found in the right of each person to open their Bible and seek their own answers.
This is the example Paul set for us to follow.
This is what we are supposed to do.

Test all things by the scriptures!

...and that the most beloved freedom is also the thing missing in the world of the CULTS....

As for the disagreements within the Christian church?
We always have to remember there is a reason we call each other "brother" and "sister" in the Christian church., for we are the one Body of Christ, different members of the same one body, but each member is very different.
And just like with a real family, Brothers tend to fight with each other more than anyone else, LOL....But they always love their brother.

So I would tell anyone who asks>

On the essentials of the Christian Faith we have UNITY in the Church.
One the non-essentials we demand LIBERTY.
And above all else we pray for CHARITY.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

On the essentials of the Christian Faith we have UNITY in the Church.
One the non-essentials we demand LIBERTY.
And above all else we pray for CHARITY.

Who determines what the essentials are?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Who determines what the essentials are?

.......and given that my answer has not changed no matter the way the question is flipped around, what do you expect the answer to your question will turn out to be?.......

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

.......and given that my answer has not changed no matter the way the question is flipped around, what do you expect the answer to your question will turn out to be?.......

AlanMolstad, I know you are an intelligent person. But, do you not obviously see how your answers result in a very confusing scenario? EVERYTHING is up to the individual. There is no constant. You can say what you believe the essentials are but they can be very different than someone else belief of what the essentials are. So not only is truth relative to you, but so are the essential beliefs of Christianity.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

AlanMolstad, I know you are an intelligent person. But, ....

Why is there always a "But,..."?

Im doing fine until we get to the "but", then Im in trouble.....



We need fewer "buts" in the world....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

AlanMolstad, I know you are an intelligent person. But, do you not obviously see how your answers result in a very confusing scenario? EVERYTHING is up to the individual. There is no constant. You can say what you believe the essentials are but they can be very different than someone else belief of what the essentials are. So not only is truth relative to you, but so are the essential beliefs of Christianity.

Im simply telling you what the bible teaches in how we are to judge what is "true" and what is "false"

The ACTS 17:11 verse instructs us in the same situation I have been asked about, over, and over , and over.....and....over and over...etc,etc,etc


Paul went before some people and gave his teachings to them.

We read that the people were very interested in what Paul was saying, but did not trust off-hand what he was saying at all.
So to learn the truth the people went every day to the Scriptures to check out what Paul was saying and comparing it to what they already knew to be from God.


This is how the church judged the words of Paul....
and this is how we are to judge any new teaching that comes walking in the door today too.


"But Alan, this might take a lot of time"........yes that is what happened in the ACTS 17 verse too, notice it says they dug into the Scriptures putting teachings to the test "every day"


it never stops.......its something a person does all the time...
Every teaching you hear of you put to the test of the Bible...
You never ***ume anything...
Its doesn't matter what you "feel" is the truth.
It doesn't matter what others have told you is the truth.....you challenge everything.

It does not matter what person, angel, or god is carrying the teaching into the church

You grab that teach and slap it down in a chair, and put it to the test of the Scriptures.
If it agrees?...then you got no issues with it.
if it disagrees?....then reject it, and reject the man, angel or god that brought it in the door.






so.....if you want to keep on asking me the same question, "But Alan what if two people disagree?" then go ahead.

I dont mind it one bit...but to save time and make this go faster I may just refer you to posts I have already written that answer this question when it was first asked 2 or more weeks ago....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I am wondering what you mean by counterfeit?

In my post to Alan, I was talking about people who disagree over doctrines--how can they figure out what the doctrine should be? Alan apparently believes that the only acceptable and effective answer is to go to the Bible. I said that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.

That's when Alan said

we study real money to learn how to spot the counterfeit.

So my reply to Alan was

in the many areas of doctrine where Christendom is split in half, each side thinking the other side is the counterfeit, how does Christendom decide which is the real money and which is the counterfeit?

Wouldn't that mean false Christianity.

That may be what Alan was referring to, but I was talking about Christendom, which I wouldn't call false Christianity. Alan kind of forced that point of view onto it. In his context of the discussion, if 2 Christians disagree over a doctrine, each must think the other's position to be counterfeit. But just because you disagree with some other Christian over which competing doctrine is the correct one, it doesn't mean that one or both of you is a false Christian. The millions of people who had doctrine-related disagreements over centuries were not all false Christians.

Do you know how the US Treasury teaches people how to distinguish a fake bill from a real one?

No, I don't know, but there is a common "urban legend" on the Internet about how they do it.

They don't show them fakes. They immerse them in the real thing..

Yeah, that's the one! Did you verify it with official Treasury sources, that the legend is true? Or are you just spreading something from the Internet that you saw or heard about?

So with the words of Jesus teaching so simply so completely the way to Life why would anyone tell themselves that people get different messages from the scripture?

Because it is a fact that people get different messages from the scripture. The fact that Christendom is divided into those groups I mentioned, is pretty good evidence of that. If everyone has been in agreement for the past 19 centuries on what scripture says, the world of Christendom, and the whole world in general, would be a much different place than it is today.

Doctor Walter Martin is the reason I have decided to be post-trib.

What if a Pre-tribber says "The BIBLE is the reason I have decided to be Pre-Trib" ??

It still seems like a fact that not all Christians see the same message when they read scripture.

That is why some of us were asking Alan some questions about his solution to this problem.

[RealFakeHair]

we study real money to learn how to spot the counterfeit.
We Christians study the Holy Bible to spot counterfeit religions, ie LDSinc. Jehovah witness, and (episcpalians.)lol

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by phoenix

in my post to alan, i was talking about people who disagree over doctrines--how can they figure out what the doctrine should be? .

..........acts 17:11

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

.[/U]

That is why some of us were asking Alan some questions about his solution to this problem.

this is NOT MY SOLUTION!.....
I have never said, "Well Im not sure what others do, but I think you might try____"

Im not making any of this stuff up!
The issue, this SAME issue came up within the life of Paul, and we read in th book of ACTS how to handle this situation...

You take it to the Scriptures!

No other answer is found in the text.
No other answer is correct.....because no other answer was used when Paul was teaching and this is the reason we read about it now!

ACTS 17 is our example.....its our guide...its how they did it...its how we are to do it...


Its not my idea.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yeah, that's the one! Did you verify it with official Treasury sources, that the legend is true? Or are you just spreading something from the Internet that you saw or heard about?

.

a fair question.....you want to know if the Treasury Department trains its officers in knowing what a real dollar looks like?and how to spot a fake one?

Thats what you are asking correct?.....that seems like a nice question to seek an answer about...

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im simply telling you what the bible teaches in how we are to judge what is "true" and what is "false"

The ACTS 17:11 verse instructs us in the same situation I have been asked about, over, and over , and over.....and....over and over...etc,etc,etc


Paul went before some people and gave his teachings to them.

We read that the people were very interested in what Paul was saying, but did not trust off-hand what he was saying at all.
So to learn the truth the people went every day to the Scriptures to check out what Paul was saying and comparing it to what they already knew to be from God.


This is how the church judged the words of Paul....
and this is how we are to judge any new teaching that comes walking in the door today too.


"But Alan, this might take a lot of time"........yes that is what happened in the ACTS 17 verse too, notice it says they dug into the Scriptures putting teachings to the test "every day"


it never stops.......its something a person does all the time...
Every teaching you hear of you put to the test of the Bible...
You never ***ume anything...
Its doesn't matter what you "feel" is the truth.
It doesn't matter what others have told you is the truth.....you challenge everything.

It does not matter what person, angel, or god is carrying the teaching into the church

You grab that teach and slap it down in a chair, and put it to the test of the Scriptures.
If it agrees?...then you got no issues with it.
if it disagrees?....then reject it, and reject the man, angel or god that brought it in the door.






so.....if you want to keep on asking me the same question, "But Alan what if two people disagree?" then go ahead.

I dont mind it one bit...but to save time and make this go faster I may just refer you to posts I have already written that answer this question when it was first asked 2 or more weeks ago....

You do understand that we aren't necessarily talking about the process, right? I don't dispute that one should turn to the Bible for their answers. As you acknowledged elsewhere there is a problem with the RESULT of turning to the Bible. Again I use the example of a Mormon, Modalist, and Trinitarian walking down the street and Christ appears to them. He says "I am the way, the truth, and the life". All three turn to their Bibles to determine if what He said was true. All three believe they are. Yet I know that many, if not all, of the LDS critics will say that the Mormon and the Modalist are correct because they don't believe in the "right" Jesus. All three turned to the same Bible and all three believe they are correct. Belief in who God is is an essential doctrine, right? Can all three be right?

If you answer "all three can be right" then you believe in relative truth.

So how about we get past the process and start talking about the results of the process. What do we do when three different people research the Bible and end up with different answers? If it is over an essential doctrine, like the example above, and there isn't unity.... what do we do?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You do understand that we aren't necessarily talking about the process, right? I don't dispute that one should turn to the Bible for their answers. As you acknowledged elsewhere there is a problem with the RESULT of turning to the Bible. Again I use the example of a Mormon, Modalist, and Trinitarian walking down the street and Christ appears to them. He says "I am the way, the truth, and the life". All three turn to their Bibles to determine if what He said was true. All three believe they are. Yet I know that many, if not all, of the LDS critics will say that the Mormon and the Modalist are correct because they don't believe in the "right" Jesus. All three turned to the same Bible and all three believe they are correct. Belief in who God is is an essential doctrine, right? Can all three be right?

If you answer "all three can be right" then you believe in relative truth.

So how about we get past the process and start talking about the results of the process. What do we do when three different people research the Bible and end up with different answers? If it is over an essential doctrine, like the example above, and there isn't unity.... what do we do?

"...and end up with different answers?"
same question gets the same answer.....nothing changed.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"...and end up with different answers?"
same question gets the same answer.....nothing changed.

You know, besides the chance you are just stuck in some type on un-ending loop, what really strikes me about the same question being asked over and over is that perhaps you think that down the line there will be a different answer from me?

Is that what you are thinking?

That if you somehow think of just the right way to phrase the question that you will get a different answer from me?

or.....

perhaps you believe that the teachings that I believe are based on something else becides the bible?
Are you thinking that I based my views of a majority vote?....I went with the mob?

Are you thinking I based my views on what this other guy said was true?

Some guy said, "Hey listen to me Im a Prophet" and I just bent the knee before him?

Are you thinking that I allowed some other guys whom I dont even know, vote, and Im stuck with believing whatever they voted to be this week's "truth"?

Or....are you thinking that I base my views on a lucky 8-ball?


All I can say is that after all this time, you should have a grasp that Alan goes to the Bible for what he believes...

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You know, besides the chance you are just stuck in some type on un-ending loop, what really strikes me about the same question being asked over and over is that perhaps you think that down the line there will be a different answer from me?

Is that what you are thinking?

That if you somehow think of just the right way to phrase the question that you will get a different answer from me?

or.....

perhaps you believe that the teachings that I believe are based on something else becides the bible?
Are you thinking that I based my views of a majority vote?....I went with the mob?

Are you thinking I based my views on what this other guy said was true?

Some guy said, "Hey listen to me Im a Prophet" and I just bent the knee before him?

Are you thinking that I allowed some other guys whom I dont even know, vote, and Im stuck with believing whatever they voted to be this week's "truth"?

Or....are you thinking that I base my views on a lucky 8-ball?


All I can say is that after all this time, you should have a grasp that Alan goes to the Bible for what he believes...

Actually I think it is you that is stuck. You are stuck on the process. Your process for finding answers is to turn to the Bible. Fine, I agree.

Will you admit that you and I believe differently?

Will you admit that we both go to the same Bible to get our understanding of God. (You know 39 books in Old Testament, 27 books in New Testament)

If we believe differently yet use the same Bible for our PROCESS of verifying truth, then it is the RESULTS that are different, not the process. Right?

If I believe there are three persons in the Godhead and you believe there are three persons in one God are we both right because we used the same Bible as our source?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You know, besides the chance you are just stuck in some type on un-ending loop, what really strikes me about the same question being asked over and over is that perhaps you think that down the line there will be a different answer from me?

Is that what you are thinking?

That if you somehow think of just the right way to phrase the question that you will get a different answer from me?

or.....

perhaps you believe that the teachings that I believe are based on something else becides the bible?
Are you thinking that I based my views of a majority vote?....I went with the mob?

Are you thinking I based my views on what this other guy said was true?

Some guy said, "Hey listen to me Im a Prophet" and I just bent the knee before him?

Are you thinking that I allowed some other guys whom I dont even know, vote, and Im stuck with believing whatever they voted to be this week's "truth"?

Or....are you thinking that I base my views on a lucky 8-ball?


All I can say is that after all this time, you should have a grasp that Alan goes to the Bible for what he believes...

Lets look at the br*** tacks here, mormons do not trust the Holy Bible. This is the stick in the eye of every cult member of any cult religion. Until a TBM can come to trust The Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible and His Word that is found in the Holy Bible, it will be impossible for any LDSinc. Member to comprehend the total faith we have in His Word.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Actually I think it is you that is stuck. You are stuck on the process. Your process for finding answers is to turn to the Bible. Fine, I agree.

Will you admit that you and I believe differently?

Will you admit that we both go to the same Bible to get our understanding of God. (You know 39 books in Old Testament, 27 books in New Testament)

If we believe differently yet use the same Bible for our PROCESS of verifying truth, then it is the RESULTS that are different, not the process. Right?

If I believe there are three persons in the Godhead and you believe there are three persons in one God are we both right because we used the same Bible as our source?

read ACTS 17;11...and ask yourself this question...

How long did it take them to search the Scriptures to learn if Paul was telling the truth?.....what does it say?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Lets look at the br*** tacks here, mormons do not trust the Holy Bible. ..

Is that all what this loopin is about?.....the Mormons dont trust the Bible because they know it teaches against their views, so they dont even like the idea of putting new teachings to the test of Scriptures?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

read ACTS 17;11...and ask yourself this question...

How long did it take them to search the Scriptures to learn if Paul was telling the truth?.....what does it say?

Do you have a concern about answering those four direct questions? I even asked them so you could answer yes or no.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Is that all what this loopin is about?.....the Mormons dont trust the Bible because they know it teaches against their views, so they dont even like the idea of putting new teachings to the test of Scriptures?

Not at all. It is because you simple refuse to deal with RESULTS of your Acts 17:11 answer. Take Mormons out of it for a second. Why are there Modalists out there? Don't they do what you ask them to do? They could study the Bible the rest of their lives and still conclude that they have the correct understanding of God and believe that you are the one in error.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Do you have a concern about answering those four direct questions? I even asked them so you could answer yes or no.

acts 17:11.....you go to the text to test a new teaching against the scriptures.

that is where i go....if you say that is the ONLY place you go to find the truth?...then great!

that is where we draw our truth from

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

acts 17:11.....you go to the text to test a new teaching against the scriptures.

that is where i go....if you say that is the ONLY place you go to find the truth?...then great!

that is where we draw our truth from

I'll take that as a "YES" you do have a concern answering a direct question.

And the critics of the LDS say we have a problem answer direct questions. Sheesh.