A "what if" question for critics.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

BigJulie posted on the forum?

I thought she was dead?...........I owe James $5 bucks.....

Just busy with good things.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Even this one?

D&C 84:2-5
Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Wow James--you are now trying to make your point using the D&C? Yes, what problem do you have with this verse?

Of course you know that this temple was never built.. That Joseph Smith later said that because of the violence against the church by mere men that he was taking back His command to build this temple.. That is a far cry from what a different prophet said about doing what God commanded.

At this point there are over 100 temples built.

1 Nephi 3:7
...I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Yup, which is why there are over 100 temples now.

Remember the D&C p***age says that "this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built".. According to D&C Smith's report from his God that is his commandment..

Yes, it is being built even as we speak--and will continue.

As for the prayer.. Prayer is never a bad idea can you give me a reason for your prayer.. Is it for understanding? Is it for confidence of truth? What are you praying for? I am all for prayer but the scripture alone has the power to accomplish it's goals..

As noted, the Holy Ghost bears witness to us of the scriptures--through the Holy Ghost, there is no need of contention as to what the scriptures mean.

2 Tim 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Yes, Joseph Smith was 14 when he received his first revelation.

So God looks like a man and a woman? Is that up and down or left and right? Maybe we are in His spiritual image since God is invisible (Col 1:15)..
[INDENT]

Well, look at the word "our" image. I know that you know that God, as translated correctly from Hebrew actually means "gods"---not to hard to understand really.

Julie, was Paul then teaching error when He reported that Jesus is the image of the invisible God..Come on how wrong could Smith say when he said that God has a body as tangible as man's? Both can't be right.. Who should we believe Paul or a man that said God couldn't deal with persecution and still provide a way to have his commandments kept.. According to what we know Smith should be rejected and the Bible affirmed.. IHS jim

Nope, because God is invisible to us. But obviously, for instance, Stephen saw Christ standing on the right hand of God.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

You know, I always find it fascinating the lengths some go to explain that God the Father is NOT like Jesus Christ, all the while contending that they are One.

But as I noted James---we will disagree---which is why ALL need the witness of the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Why do you think Christ taught that the Holy Ghost will teach us ALL things---and have us remember what he said? (Which was written down.) Why doesn't Christ tell us that we can learn all from the scriptures?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Just busy with good things.

Very nice to see you here, again, Julie.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

while the question deals with religions that are not christian in nature and so they have answers that are aimed for them...the heart of the issue raised by Snow Patrol is valid.

How do 3 people from different points of view find an answer as to what is truth when they come at it from different directions?


My answer is the only one that works as it is the only one that is supported by the bible.

we must submit to the authority of ACTS 17:11...that is the only path we can walk in...all the others lead sooner or later to a ditch...

Any new doctrine must submit it's self to the authority of scripture. It's like saying that the Father has a body as tangible as man's, when the Bible teaches God is Spirit, that a spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone, and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.. If we would be as noble as the believers in Berea and search the scriptures and then hold onto what the scriptures teach and cast away all the other claptrap as error mormonism would have never even started.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

Very nice to see you here, again, Julie.

Thanks Libby---good to hear from you too.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Any new doctrine must submit it's self to the authority of scripture. It's like saying that the Father has a body as tangible as man's, when the Bible teaches God is Spirit, that a spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone, and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.. If we would be as noble as the believers in Berea and search the scriptures and then hold onto what the scriptures teach and cast away all the other claptrap as error mormonism would have never even started.. IHS jim

The authority has always been and always will be God. All doctrine must submit to God.

I don't think Christ is saying that God does not have a body, but rather how we get to know Him. One does not exclude the other.

Is your argument that Christ is NOT the same as the Father---that we do not understand or know the Father by knowing Christ? Is that your argument?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The authority has always been and always will be God. All doctrine must submit to God.

I don't think Christ is saying that God does not have a body, but rather how we get to know Him. One does not exclude the other.

Is your argument that Christ is NOT the same as the Father---that we do not understand or know the Father by knowing Christ? Is that your argument?

The Holy Bible doesn't tell us God has a body, it does say God is Spirit. The Holy Bible tells us Man is made in God's image.
I'd like to believe everyone female here would worship me seeing my body is the image of God. However I want to believe being in the image if God is more in the line of knowledge. However I come up short there too. So what does it mean?
I believe it is Consciousness of the eternal Soul. God of the Holy Bible is eternal, and thus is His creation, Man.
God is Spirit, man has spirit, and thus is our connection with God of the Holy Bible.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

The Holy Bible doesn't tell us God has a body, it does say God is Spirit. The Holy Bible tells us Man is made in God's image.
I'd like to believe everyone female here would worship me seeing my body is the image of God. However I want to believe being in the image if God is more in the line of knowledge. However I come up short there too. So what does it mean?
I believe it is Consciousness of the eternal Soul. God of the Holy Bible is eternal, and thus is His creation, Man.
God is Spirit, man has spirit, and thus is our connection with God of the Holy Bible.

It does say "God is Spirit"---but with that, we learn this--Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

How do you worship someone in spirit? Does that mean that you must separate your spirit from your body to worship God? Or does this verse speak to the fact that we know God by His Spirit and we worship Him by our spirit?

So, then do we ignore that Christ has a body of flesh and bones AFTER He was resurrected? Do we ignore His teachings that we learn of the Father by Him? Do we believe that God the Father is something so entirely different than Jesus Christ? Or do we accept that God has a body because Jesus Christ has a body?

As I noted earlier, it is amazing to me the lengths some go to show the differences between the Father and the Son, especially in light of your understanding that they are one.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Actually, deep down inside you know it doesn't conflict with what the Bible teaches.

False BigJ--if I thought that the Bible was consistent with what mormonism teaches then I would still be mormon (or a minimum still believe that the mormon church teaches truth).

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What you have done is called projection (and/or why you made your reply personal.)

What I have done is tell the truth that mormonism is not consistent with what the Bible teaches. But after all of our discussions you simply forgot what we talked about or are in serious denial. But that is OK I am happy to talk about it again. Let's start with this one.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Who are "us" in this verse?

Who are "our" in this verse?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Just busy with good things.

Would you say that you are "good" based on your own works?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

False BigJ--if I thought that the Bible was consistent with what mormonism teaches then I would still be mormon (or a minimum still believe that the mormon church teaches truth).

And because I am still Mormon, then you should also make the ***umption that I do believe the Bible is consistent with what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches...but as you ***ume you know my heart and mind, I can only ***ume it is projection. As how else could you ***ume to know my thoughts if they are not yours?

What I have done is tell the truth that mormonism is not consistent with what the Bible teaches. But after all of our discussions you simply forgot what we talked about or are in serious denial. But that is OK I am happy to talk about it again. Let's start with this one.

Actually, Billyray, all you did was convince me that your beliefs are not consistent with the Bible. You have your own brand of beliefs that even some Christians don't agree with. (I still remember Jill erasing some threads as you argued out your beliefs with other Christians.)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Who are "us" in this verse?

Who are "our" in this verse?

That is the question, Billyray----isn't it. Who is the "us" and "our" to you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And because I am still Mormon, then you should also make the ***umption that I do believe the Bible is consistent with what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches...

Would you say that the unique teachings of mormonism are taught in the Bible or are they extra Biblical teachings?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Actually, Billyray, all you did was convince me that your beliefs are not consistent with the Bible.

Perhaps you could start with the following to see if your view or my view is more consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

That is the question, Billyray----isn't it.

Can you at least address my question since you are the one who brought it up as support for mormonism. Here it is again.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Who are "us" in this verse?

Who are "our" in this verse?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you at least address my question since you are the one who brought it up as support for mormonism. Here it is again.

I already did--as the Hebrew word "elohim" means "gods"---so it makes total sense to say "us" and "our".

Your turn. Why do you think it says "us" and "our"?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Perhaps you could start with the following to see if your view or my view is more consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

Leading and complex question---logical fallacy. Do you want to address what we really believe or just discuss and argue your own premise and false conclusions?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I already did--as the Hebrew word "elohim" means "gods"---so it makes total sense to say "us" and "our".

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.*

So your position (i.e. the mormon position) is that God the Father said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" he was speaking about himself when using both "us" and "our"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Leading and complex question--

Complex question? Really? You are simply trying to avoid a a simple question. Here it is again, perhaps you can address it this time.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Complex question? Really? You are simply trying to avoid a a simple question. Here it is again, perhaps you can address it this time.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

Actually, I am not (avoiding the question). I just pointed out that you made a logical fallacy. A complex question does not mean it is hard to answer, it means that within the question, you made a premise that was false. It would be like asking---when you started your house on fire, did you feel bad? Well, if you knew that you did not start your house on fire, then there is no point in answering the question. It is what you did and what you do on a regular basis.

But, I am off to doing good things again....I have a busy week ahead.

We will let anyone who reads look up and do their own studying as to what "elohim" means and why Genesis uses it and the words "us" and "our". There are many thoughts about this. I have heard some Christians explain it as the royal "we"---but I don't agree. (As I think when a king used it, he meant himself and God, whom he believed appointed him to his position.) I have heard some say it is because it is recognizing a plural word such as divinity or maybe even Godhead. You have not answered this yourself. To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Actually, I am not (avoiding the question). . .

Actually, you are avoiding the question--again. Here it is one more time. You pretend that you want to discuss the truth but games like this prove that you have no interest in really discussing the truth. Do you?


Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

Can you be more specific? So far you have stated that the gods spoken about in this verse are: 1. God the Father 2. Jesus Christ. Who are the other gods that you think were present? (I am asking because it is important when discussing this verse in context to your original use of this verse in support of mormonism).

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

BigJulie posted on the forum?

I thought she was dead?...........I owe James $5 bucks.....

And I sent flowers to the funeral.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Actually, I am not (avoiding the question). I just pointed out that you made a logical fallacy. A complex question does not mean it is hard to answer, it means that within the question, you made a premise that was false. It would be like asking---when you started your house on fire, did you feel bad? Well, if you knew that you did not start your house on fire, then there is no point in answering the question. It is what you did and what you do on a regular basis.

But, I am off to doing good things again....I have a busy week ahead.

We will let anyone who reads look up and do their own studying as to what "elohim" means and why Genesis uses it and the words "us" and "our". There are many thoughts about this. I have heard some Christians explain it as the royal "we"---but I don't agree. (As I think when a king used it, he meant himself and God, whom he believed appointed him to his position.) I have heard some say it is because it is recognizing a plural word such as divinity or maybe even Godhead. You have not answered this yourself. To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

Sorry but it looks like you are inventing your own meanings to words again.. Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim) When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. (Glinert Modern Hebrew: An Essential Grammar Routledge p14 section 13). But lets not be to quick to judge you too harshly.. Since elohim can be plural we must acknowledge that it extends to to beings other than The God.. The word is identical to the usual plural of el meaning gods or magistrates, and is cognate to the 'l-h-m found in Ugaritic, where it is used for the pantheon of Canaanite gods, the children of El and conventionally vocalized as "Elohim" (Moses Maimonides. "Guide for the Perplexed"). It is clear from all this that the teaching that there is more than one God is NOT what the text in the Bible ever meant to convey. Only the uneducated could have come up with such a doctrine.. IHS jim