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Thread: This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

  1. #1
    Sir
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    Default This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

    Because I don't want this thread to be removed on the basis of personal attacks I will refrain from citing the poster whose words these are. But this is the kind of thinking that makes LDS like me wonder why critics of the LDS think they have something better to offer the LDS:

    "You still refuse to believe! You hold a foolish idea that a ,man must sin to be a sinner.. That isn't what the Bible teaches.. It says ALL have sinned.. ALL [name removed] not just adults with mature minds but ALL means the infants, the mentally handicapped, ALL"
    1) Is it really foolish to think that one must actually do something in order to be called someone who does that thing? Can I call someone a rapist if he never committed rape? Can I call someone a thief if he has never stolen? etc.

    2) How can someone claim to have a better news, the good news, to offer LDS, when they believe that infants and mentally handicapped people are sinners? I agree with the BoM that states people who believe an infant, a baby that has no comprehension of reality, let alone the ability to make a rational choice to choose between good and evil and consciously choose one or the other, is in the gall of bitterness.

  2. #2
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    1) Is it really foolish to think that one must actually do something in order to be called someone who does that thing? Can I call someone a rapist if he never committed rape? Can I call someone a thief if he has never stolen? etc.

    2) How can someone claim to have a better news, the good news, to offer LDS, when they believe that infants and mentally handicapped people are sinners? I agree with the BoM that states people who believe an infant, a baby that has no comprehension of reality, let alone the ability to make a rational choice to choose between good and evil and consciously choose one or the other, is in the gall of bitterness.
    Why do you think this kind of thinking is scary? We are all sinners by nature and we all sin because of our sin nature. I think that you will find that this concept is not unique to a single poster but rather a commonly held Christian belief. If this were not so then you would expect to see sinless people but you don't. Now what I think that you are confusing is sin and accountability. For example a 4 year old can go into a store and steal a piece of candy. This act is breaking the law, but because of his age he would not be held accountable for that crime, but it is still a crime.

  3. #3
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Because I don't want this thread to be removed on the basis of personal attacks I will refrain from citing the poster whose words these are. But this is the kind of thinking that makes LDS like me wonder why critics of the LDS think they have something better to offer the LDS:


    1) Is it really foolish to think that one must actually do something in order to be called someone who does that thing? Can I call someone a rapist if he never committed rape? Can I call someone a thief if he has never stolen? etc.
    Since Mormons have obviously placed themselves under their own legalistic code in order to attain salvation, then as James wrote, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all" (2:10). So, whether you've actually committed an act of rape, theft, murder, incest, or whatever other immoral act you can think of, since you, as a Mormon, have placed yourself under the Law, then the mere violation of one legalistic statute automatically makes you guilty of violating them all. Again, that is in God's judgment, not anyone else's.

    2) How can someone claim to have a better news, the good news, to offer LDS, when they believe that infants and mentally handicapped people are sinners?
    Because the good news preached and taught by those who subscribe to the biblical gospel understand that if it isn't all about God's saving grace, then it isn't good news at all. Moreover, God has the absolute right and prerogative to do with His creation as He deems fit. And that includes infants, the mentally handicapped, or the devious Mormon subversive, the latter of which seems to think that God should bow at his feet, rather than the other way around.

    I agree with the BoM that states people who believe an infant, a baby that has no comprehension of reality, let alone the ability to make a rational choice to choose between good and evil and consciously choose one or the other, is in the gall of bitterness.
    Who cares what you agree with, since your finite determination, lost in a sea of contradiction and perversion, is not even consulted in the grand scheme of God's judgment? Add to that the fact that Book of Mormon is nothing more than an extra-biblical piece of poorly written fiction, and it becomes even less significant what you think or agree with when it comes to trying to denounce the fact that God can do with His creation whatever He wishes to do, and it will always be perfect, just, and right.

  4. #4
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Because I don't want this thread to be removed on the basis of personal attacks I will refrain from citing the poster whose words these are. But this is the kind of thinking that makes LDS like me wonder why critics of the LDS think they have something better to offer the LDS:


    1) Is it really foolish to think that one must actually do something in order to be called someone who does that thing? Can I call someone a rapist if he never committed rape? Can I call someone a thief if he has never stolen? etc.

    2) How can someone claim to have a better news, the good news, to offer LDS, when they believe that infants and mentally handicapped people are sinners? I agree with the BoM that states people who believe an infant, a baby that has no comprehension of reality, let alone the ability to make a rational choice to choose between good and evil and consciously choose one or the other, is in the gall of bitterness.
    I don't see a personal attack in this I will say that those are my words.. Yes it is proper to assign any sin your would like to a person even if they haven't committed it.. We are told that "ALL HAVE SINNED" (Romans 3:23) Then in the favorite book of most mormons, James teaches that "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10)..

    So if you have ever sinned at all you are just as guilty as anyone of Murder, Rape, Theft, Blasphemy, Lying.. That authority to say that is given to us from God.. In our nature state we are NOT related to God any more than the cattle in the field. Creations not children John explains that we must become God's children:
    John 1:12-13
    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    So yes I think it is terrible foolish to disagree with God and see yourself in a better light than you actually are.. We have all sinned unless you have to to Jesus (God) confessing faith in Him, repenting of your sin (ALL OF IT). You can't be His child, you aren't saved and only the Lake of Fire is in your future.. Sin is serious and God will not permit it is His house.. If you are going to do the job of having your sins remitted yourself you better not forget a single one.. Remember what James said: If you have sinned in any way you are guilty of all sin.. As for me I will trust Jesus to take care of my sin since I have repented turning to Him.. IHS jim

  5. #5
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do you think this kind of thinking is scary? We are all sinners by nature and we all sin because of our sin nature. I think that you will find that this concept is not unique to a single poster but rather a commonly held Christian belief. If this were not so then you would expect to see sinless people but you don't. Now what I think that you are confusing is sin and accountability. For example a 4 year old can go into a store and steal a piece of candy. This act is breaking the law, but because of his age he would not be held accountable for that crime, but it is still a crime.
    This proves that an understanding of sin and it gravity is NOT taught in mormonism.. IHS jim

  6. #6
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Since Mormons have obviously placed themselves under their own legalistic code in order to attain salvation, then as James wrote, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all" (2:10). So, whether you've actually committed an act of rape, theft, murder, incest, or whatever other immoral act you can think of, since you, as a Mormon, have placed yourself under the Law, then the mere violation of one legalistic statute automatically makes you guilty of violating them all. Again, that is in God's judgment, not anyone else's.



    Because the good news preached and taught by those who subscribe to the biblical gospel understand that if it isn't all about God's saving grace, then it isn't good news at all. Moreover, God has the absolute right and prerogative to do with His creation as He deems fit. And that includes infants, the mentally handicapped, or the devious Mormon subversive, the latter of which seems to think that God should bow at his feet, rather than the other way around.



    Who cares what you agree with, since your finite determination, lost in a sea of contradiction and perversion, is not even consulted in the grand scheme of God's judgment? Add to that the fact that Book of Mormon is nothing more than an extra-biblical piece of poorly written fiction, and it becomes even less significant what you think or agree with when it comes to trying to denounce the fact that God can do with His creation whatever He wishes to do, and it will always be perfect, just, and right.
    I hope that Sir can now see that Christians, through separated by distance, and denominations, still hold the exact same Gospel.. We teach the same things about the Nature of God, man, sin , and forgiveness.. I pray that this unity will be seen as a strone evidence to them that e who believe the Bible are one in our Lord Jesus.. IHS jim

  7. #7
    Sir
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    What sins does a newborn infant commit?

  8. #8
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    What sins does a newborn infant commit?
    Selfishness for one..

    It's what a new born is, it's part of their nature they can't help it. We love then inspite of their crying and making a mess.. They are sinners born and raised..

    Does a small child need to be taught to lie? NO!! they must be taught to tell the truth.. Lying is what they are, making them sinners by nature.. They know how to be evil without aid.. They must be taught to do good.. IHS jim

  9. #9
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Selfishness for one..

    It's what a new born is, it's part of their nature they can't help it. We love then inspite of their crying and making a mess.. They are sinners born and raised..

    Does a small child need to be taught to lie? NO!! they must be taught to tell the truth.. Lying is what they are, making them sinners by nature.. They know how to be evil without aid.. They must be taught to do good.. IHS jim
    So a newborn is selfish and thus a sinner by being selfish? Can you explain this?

  10. #10
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    So a newborn is selfish and thus a sinner by being selfish? Can you explain this?
    We are born with a sin nature. Thus we will sin because of this nature.

  11. #11
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We are born with a sin nature. Thus we will sin because of this nature.
    That is different than saying that we are already sinners when we emerge from the womb. You are saying that we are born with a nature that will make us commit sins, but James is saying we are born and right off the bat we are sinning. He uses the example of selfishness to support his opinion and I am waiting for him to expound on it furthur.
    Last edited by Sir; 10-30-2010 at 11:43 AM.

  12. #12
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    That is different than saying that we are already sinners when we emerge from the womb.
    We ARE born with that sin nature.

  13. #13
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We ARE born with that sin nature.
    You're dodging the issue that James speaks - that infants are committing sin right from the womb. Not that an infant is born with a nature to eventually commit sin, but to be in the act of sin upon birth.

    Do you agree that a newborn infant is in the act of sinning? If so, what sins is he/she committing?

  14. #14
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post

    Do you agree that a newborn infant is in the act of sinning? If so, what sins is he/she committing?
    I am not sure which quote you are referring to, can you quote it for me.

  15. #15
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am not sure which quote you are referring to, can you quote it for me.
    There are only 12 posts in this thread, only a handful from James, and you are posting in the line of conversation of the quote. Are you not reading the whole thread?

    "What sins does a newborn infnat commit?"

    ANSWER:
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Selfishness for one..

    It's what a new born is, it's part of their nature they can't help it. We love then inspite of their crying and making a mess.. They are sinners born and raised..

  16. #16
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post

    "What sins does a newborn infnat commit?"
    I don't know the answer to your question. But the Bible does say ALL men and ALL means ALL.

    Romans 5
    12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.


    http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4505.htm
    "d. Thus death spread to all men, because all sinned: Since death and sin are connected, we can know that all men are sinners - because all are subject to death. A sinless man is not subject to death but since every person is subject to death - even the smallest baby - it proves that all [mankind] sinned in Adam.

    i. This sounds odd to our individualistic ears, but Paul clearly teaches that we all sinned “in” Adam. Adam is the common father of every person on the earth; every human who has ever lived was “in” Adam’s genetic makeup. Therefore, all mankind actually sinned in Adam."

  17. #17
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't know the answer to your question. But the Bible does say ALL men and ALL means ALL.

    Romans 5
    12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
    Really? You don't know the answer nor take a position?

    In this thread James said that you are all in agreement about this (sin). Yet you don't claim to know the answer as he does.

    Since you have no answer, what is your opinion of James' idea that a newborn baby is a sinner from the womb, and using selfishness as evidence of at least one sin? Does a baby's need for a mother's care at birth constitute a sin being committed by the baby?

  18. #18
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Really? You don't know the answer nor take a position?
    We are ALL sinners including infants. None are innocent.

  19. #19
    Billyray
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    Sir, who gets into heaven based on his own righteousness?

  20. #20
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We are ALL sinners including infants. None are innocent.
    Then what sins do infants commit?

    James says "selfishness for one". So that must mean there are others.

    What other things do infants do that you would call sins?

  21. #21
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Then what sins do infants commit?
    I already answered your question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't know the answer to your question. But the Bible does say ALL men and ALL means ALL.

    Romans 5
    12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

  22. #22
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Sir, who gets into heaven based on his own righteousness?
    Can you answer my question?

  23. #23
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I already answered your question.
    So your position is newborn infants sin, but you do not know what they do to commit sins.

    James' position is newborn infants sin, and one of the things they do that is sinful is they are selfish.

    Do you agree or disagree with James?

  24. #24
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can you answer my question?
    Your question is not relevant to the discussion we're having.

    But the answer is no one.

  25. #25
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    So your position is newborn infants sin, but you do not know what they do to commit sins.

    James' position is newborn infants sin, and one of the things they do that is sinful is they are selfish.

    Do you agree or disagree with James?
    I agree with Jim on this point. Infants and small children sin by nature. They steal, they lie, they are selfish, they hit each other. You name it.

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