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Thread: This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

  1. #226
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Infants die, therefore they are not innocent Death--both physical and spiritual--is a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners. David wrote in Psalm 51 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. "
    I believe we are all born after our own kind...sinful man.

    I agree with you completely because this is what the Scriptures teaches. When someone gives their beliefs its important to see what the Scripture says. All babies are born with a sin nature. There's no escaping it. We live in a fallen world ruled by satan.

    The Mormons would have us believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to transgress and they teach that the Fall was a very good thing. This is not only twisting the Scriptures, but a lie of the devil.

  2. #227
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    David wrote in Psalm 51 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. "
    I believe we are all born after our own kind...sinful man.
    Psalm 51 that you have given above in your post is one that I have given to the Mormons on here. Time and time again they will tell you that David meant it was his mother who had sinned and that it does not mean that David was born with a sin nature. Mormons do not teach the doctrine of original sin. They cannot because it would contradict their teaching that it was necessary for Adam and Eve to transgress., that the Fall was good and that man is also good.

  3. #228
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    well......this verse contradicts the idea that babies are in sin....

    Romans 7:9
    "Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life"

  4. #229
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I do not think children are "born in sin"...and thus in need of being forgiven...





    I also believe that even as a child grows older that God "overlooks"the sins of childen as a parent would of their dear children knowing that with age will also come the greater ability to learn from mistakes and to take more responsibility for themselves that younger kids just don't have right now.
    Can you give us any scriptures to support your belief that babies are not born with a sin nature?

    Can y also give us the scripture that teaches God overlooks sin, even those of a child's?

  5. #230
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post

    Can y also give us the scripture that teaches God overlooks sin, even those of a child's?
    Acts 17:30

  6. #231
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Can you give us any scriptures to support your belief that babies are not born with a sin nature?
    see post #228

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    well......this verse contradicts the idea that babies are in sin....

    Romans 7:9
    "Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life"

    Paul is nowhere saying he was once sinless. By being alive he meant that he was totally unaware of the death sentence he was under. Those who are not born again are blissfully unaware of their eternal condition. The commandments revives sin which is why God gave the Commandments to show us how far we have fallen. "He died" so to speak, and suddenly realized that he was law breaker and deserved death!

  8. #233
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Paul is nowhere saying he was once sinless. By being alive he meant that he was totally unaware of the death sentence he was under. !
    LOL>>>>Nice try, but then Paul would have said, "Once I was confused..."

    But I take it at face value that when Paul said that before the law came into his life he was "alive"
    Now we know that Paul grew up within the Jewish faith...being a Jews-Jew.
    And we know as such he was asked to be repsonsible under the Law as he grew older and became a member of the Jewish community.

    So this proves to us that Paul did not believe that little babies were guilty of sin.
    And the text also shows us that as a child grew older and their tendency to commit error and sin grew inside them, that the Bible teaches that God "overlooks" such things.....

    So this is how I look at things too!

    Babies are not "in sin"
    As we get older, and sin springs to life in our hearts, God overlooks it when we are little kids, but as we become able to respond to God's light he demands from us to repent and have faith in the power of the cross to clean us of sin's stain.

  9. #234
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    well......this verse contradicts the idea that babies are in sin....

    Romans 7:9
    "Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life"


    “For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.”

    I would ask that you would consider the possibility that Paul was saying this….I had not yet realized in my heart or my conscience that I was dead in trespasses and sin, I thought I was alive in every way, a sound mind, spirit and body. Notice that Paul said, "When the commandment came, sin revived." He did not say, "Sin came." You cannot revive something that doesn't already exist. The sin nature already exists in every human at birth but until the Law comes, that nature is dead. That does not mean that it is not functional. Observation tells us that very young children have a sin nature, we do not have to teach them to lie to their parents or to be selfish. But God is not imputing sin unto people until the time that they knowingly violate God's Law.

  10. #235
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    also....a closer reading of the words of King david show us that David was not attepting to transfer the guilt of his sin on to anyone else.....NOT his mom....not even Adam and Eve.

    So the argument that tried to use the words, "In sin did my mother conceive me" to prove "original sin" is in error.
    Even a brief look at the context of that whole set of Bible verses written by David show us the opposite of the "original sin" idea is what David was saying.....

  11. #236
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    “For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.”

    I would ask that you would consider the possibility that Paul was saying this….I had not yet realized....
    Nope, that is not the correct understanding of the text.

    that would be Paul saying, "Once I was confused..."

    But Paul does not say he was confused, he says he was "ALIVE!"..........


    Then the Law enters his life...and sin takes the occasion of the law to "Spring to Life"

    This is how it works for all of us.
    We are born and live our little lives free of the stain of sin...
    Then as we get older we start to understand the "law"
    But while we are little kids, god will overlook our many sins because we are just kids and He is a loving Father to us.
    Then as we get older, God demands from us to "repent".....and at this time we are asked to respond to the Light from heaven we receive....

    If we dont?...we die....as Paul died and was dead at the time in his life he thought he was doing good, when he watched the coats of the guys with rocks.

  12. #237
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Acts 17:30
    This verse says nothing about God overlooking a child's sin. John Gill's Commentary says this:

    "Not that he (God) approved of, or encouraged such blindness and folly, as appeared among the Gentiles, when they worshipped idols of gold, silver, and stone, taking them for deities; but rather the sense is, he despised this, and them for it, and was displeased and angry with them; and as an evidence of such contempt and indignation, he overlooked them, and took no notice of them, and gave them no revelation to direct them, nor prophets to instruct them, and left them to their stupidity and ignorance."

    We must be careful not to pull out one verse and have it mean what we think and at the same time ignore what other scriptures teaches.

  13. #238
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Ah, controversy the life blood of any forum. I respect your opinion Alan, we will have to ask Paul someday

  14. #239
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Ah, controversy the life blood of any forum. I respect your opinion Alan, we will have to ask Paul someday
    I agree, disciple. Lots of opinions on here, but if they don't agree with God's word they are false and not of God.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    LOL>>>>Nice try, but then Paul would have said, "Once I was confused..."

    But I take it at face value that when Paul said that before the law came into his life he was "alive"
    Now we know that Paul grew up within the Jewish faith...being a Jews-Jew.
    And we know as such he was asked to be repsonsible under the Law as he grew older and became a member of the Jewish community.

    So this proves to us that Paul did not believe that little babies were guilty of sin.
    And the text also shows us that as a child grew older and their tendency to commit error and sin grew inside them, that the Bible teaches that God "overlooks" such things.....

    So this is how I look at things too!

    Babies are not "in sin"
    As we get older, and sin springs to life in our hearts, God overlooks it when we are little kids, but as we become able to respond to God's light he demands from us to repent and have faith in the power of the cross to clean us of sin's stain.
    Paul said, "When the commandment came, (God's law) sin revived." He did not say, "Sin came." You can't revive something that doesn't already exist. The sin nature already exists in every human at birth. Although we are born with a sin nature, God does not impute sin unto the baby or very little child until the time that they knowingly violate God's Law.

  16. #241
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    well......this verse contradicts the idea that babies are in sin....

    Romans 7:9
    "Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life"
    Babies are not sinners but they are born with a sin nature, How can you say as a child gets older God overlooks his sins? What do you do with the "age of accountability?

  17. #242
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    Footnotes in KJV Bible says concerning Romans 7:9

    "I was alive without the law once": the There was a time when Paul lived a complacent life, insensitive to the demands of the law. Paul said "I died," meaning he understood the law to realize that he was accused, guilty and marked for death.

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    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Footnotes in KJV Bible says concerning Romans 7:9

    "I was alive without the law once": the There was a time when Paul lived a complacent life, insensitive to the demands of the law. Paul said "I died," meaning he understood the law to realize that he was accused, guilty and marked for death.
    The footnote is wrong.

    The real idea that Paul is talking about is that when he was not yet of age he was not guilty of sin.

  19. #244
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Babies are not sinners but they are born with a sin nature, How can you say as a child gets older God overlooks his sins? What do you do with the "age of accountability?
    God overlooks our sins when we are unable yet to understand the full implications of our thoughts and deeds.
    But as we grow older we are tasked with more and more responsibility.

    When I was a child I thought as a child,
    But when I became older I put away the childish things.

    When I was a child I was only ready to drink milk.
    But as I grew older I became able to eat meat.

    There was nothing wrong at the time with only drinking milk, but there would be something wrong now if i continued to only drink milk when I am now able to eat meat.

    So in the same way, when I was a child my Father in Heaven as well as my Father here on earth both tasked me according to what they knew I was mature enough to accomplish.
    As a child I was given tasks that I always was able to perform.
    But as I grew older I was then tasked with new things, different than the things I was asked to perform before...

    So first i was only allowed to pull weeds, but later i was given the job of mowing the yard.

    In the beginning I was not held accountable for my sins before God, but later I was tasked with the responsibility of understanding the truth about my actions and to respond to the Good News of the blood of Christ and its power to clean my sins away.

  20. #245
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Paul said, "When the commandment came, (God's law) sin revived." He did not say, "Sin came." You can't revive something that doesn't already exist. The sin nature already exists in every human at birth. Although we are born with a sin nature, God does not impute sin unto the baby or very little child until the time that they knowingly violate God's Law.
    I disagree with this completely.

    its like this...
    When Adam was made, we cant say that he was made with a 'sin nature"...

    Just as Adam was not made with a sin nature, so too I was not made with a sin nature.
    But both Adam and myself are made of flesh.....and the flesh is weak and subject to doing things that are evil.

    Now when Adam sinned, we cant say that he sinned because sin was already inside him when he was created, as that would make God the original cause of sin and it's true Maker.
    But we can say that when the Law came into Adam's life, then and only then did sin "SPRING TO LIFE" in his heart.

    Its the same way with all us who are the children of Adam too.
    Sin "springs to life" inside our hearts and we die.

    Adam and his children are not created with little "seeds" of sin inside us, rather what happens is that temptation enters our hearts and we respond in a wrong manner to the temptation and this leads us to sin....

    So while all are tempted from time to time, not all temptation leads to sin.

  21. #246
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Romans 7:9
    Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

  22. #247
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    So first i was only allowed to pull weeds, but later i was given the job of mowing the yard.
    I love this way I support my understanding here with the image of a child being tasked according to what their father knows that they can do...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Just to clarify what Mormons believe.

    1. All are fallen and in need of a Savior.

    2. Because the Savior atoned for the sins of the world, everyone is born with the atonement covering the fall. Therefore, we are only responsible for our own sins and not Adams.

    3. As Jesus Christ atoned for all, it is his decision when we become accountable for our sins (rather than our parents being accountable, such as with Adam.) He has chosen the age of 8.

    From the Book of Mormon:

    "And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism....

    For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism....

    And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation. For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy."
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  24. #249
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    God overlooks our sins when we are unable yet to understand the full implications of our thoughts and deeds.
    But as we grow older we are tasked with more and more responsibility.

    When I was a child I thought as a child,
    But when I became older I put away the childish things.

    When I was a child I was only ready to drink milk.
    But as I grew older I became able to eat meat.

    There was nothing wrong at the time with only drinking milk, but there would be something wrong now if i continued to only drink milk when I am now able to eat meat.

    So in the same way, when I was a child my Father in Heaven as well as my Father here on earth both tasked me according to what they knew I was mature enough to accomplish.
    As a child I was given tasks that I always was able to perform.
    But as I grew older I was then tasked with new things, different than the things I was asked to perform before...

    So first i was only allowed to pull weeds, but later i was given the job of mowing the yard.

    In the beginning I was not held accountable for my sins before God, but later I was tasked with the responsibility of understanding the truth about my actions and to respond to the Good News of the blood of Christ and its power to clean my sins away.
    My argument totally blows away all the talk about little kids being born sinners...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  25. #250
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I disagree with this completely.

    its like this...
    When Adam was made, we cant say that he was made with a 'sin nature"...

    Just as Adam was not made with a sin nature, so too I was not made with a sin nature.
    But both Adam and myself are made of flesh.....and the flesh is weak and subject to doing things that are evil.

    Now when Adam sinned, we cant say that he sinned because sin was already inside him when he was created, as that would make God the original cause of sin and it's true Maker.
    But we can say that when the Law came into Adam's life, then and only then did sin "SPRING TO LIFE" in his heart.

    Its the same way with all us who are the children of Adam too.
    Sin "springs to life" inside our hearts and we die.

    Adam and his children are not created with little "seeds" of sin inside us, rather what happens is that temptation enters our hearts and we respond in a wrong manner to the temptation and this leads us to sin....

    So while all are tempted from time to time, not all temptation leads to sin.
    a perfect way to understand this issue...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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