This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

That is different than saying that we are already sinners when we emerge from the womb.

We ARE born with that sin nature.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We ARE born with that sin nature.

You're dodging the issue that James speaks - that infants are committing sin right from the womb. Not that an infant is born with a nature to eventually commit sin, but to be in the act of sin upon birth.

Do you agree that a newborn infant is in the act of sinning? If so, what sins is he/she committing?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Do you agree that a newborn infant is in the act of sinning? If so, what sins is he/she committing?

I am not sure which quote you are referring to, can you quote it for me.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure which quote you are referring to, can you quote it for me.

There are only 12 posts in this thread, only a handful from James, and you are posting in the line of conversation of the quote. Are you not reading the whole thread?

"What sins does a newborn infnat commit?"

ANSWER:

Originally Posted by James Banta

Selfishness for one..

It's what a new born is, it's part of their nature they can't help it. We love then inspite of their crying and making a mess.. They are sinners born and raised..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

"What sins does a newborn infnat commit?"

I don't know the answer to your question. But the Bible does say ALL men and ALL means ALL.

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.


http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4505.htm
"d. Thus death spread to all men, because all sinned: Since death and sin are connected, we can know that all men are sinners - because all are subject to death. A sinless man is not subject to death but since every person is subject to death - even the smallest baby - it proves that all [mankind] sinned in Adam.

i. This sounds odd to our individualistic ears, but Paul clearly teaches that we all sinned “in” Adam. Adam is the common father of every person on the earth; every human who has ever lived was “in” Adam’s genetic makeup. Therefore, all mankind actually sinned in Adam."

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't know the answer to your question. But the Bible does say ALL men and ALL means ALL.

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Really? You don't know the answer nor take a position?

In this thread James said that you are all in agreement about this (sin). Yet you don't claim to know the answer as he does.

Since you have no answer, what is your opinion of James' idea that a newborn baby is a sinner from the womb, and using selfishness as evidence of at least one sin? Does a baby's need for a mother's care at birth cons***ute a sin being committed by the baby?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Really? You don't know the answer nor take a position?

We are ALL sinners including infants. None are innocent.

[Billyray]

Sir, who gets into heaven based on his own righteousness?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sir, who gets into heaven based on his own righteousness?

Can you answer my question?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you answer my question?

Your question is not relevant to the discussion we're having.

But the answer is no one.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sir, who gets into heaven based on his own righteousness?

Originally Posted by Sir

But the answer is no one.

That is correct Sir. This we agree. So if not one person gets to heaven based on his own righteousness this would also include infants correct?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is correct Sir. This we agree. So if not one person gets to heaven based on his own righteousness this would also include infants correct?

Why the strawman?

We aren't discussing whether or not we need Jesus to be saved, this we all know is true.

We are discussing what sins newborn infants commit.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Why the strawman?

What strawman?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Why the strawman?

Do you know what a straw man argument (or fallacy) really is?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We are ALL sinners including infants. None are innocent.

Then what sins do infants commit?

James says "selfishness for one". So that must mean there are others.

What other things do infants do that you would call sins?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Then what sins do infants commit?

I already answered your question.

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't know the answer to your question. But the Bible does say ALL men and ALL means ALL.

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I already answered your question.

So your position is newborn infants sin, but you do not know what they do to commit sins.

James' position is newborn infants sin, and one of the things they do that is sinful is they are selfish.

Do you agree or disagree with James?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

So your position is newborn infants sin, but you do not know what they do to commit sins.

James' position is newborn infants sin, and one of the things they do that is sinful is they are selfish.

Do you agree or disagree with James?

I agree with Jim on this point. Infants and small children sin by nature. They steal, they lie, they are selfish, they hit each other. You name it.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree with Jim on this point. Infants and small children sin by nature. They steal, they lie, they are selfish, they hit each other. You name it.

How does a newborn infant steal and lie? Please do not argue a strwman. We are talking only about newborn infants here.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

How does a newborn infant steal and lie?

Neonates IMO would not be able to lie and steal. That would be more consistent with older children.

[TheSword99]

Eph. 2:3 says we are all "by nature children of wrath."

If man is not born in sin, then wouldn't some people be sinless throughout their lives?
If we are born innocent and good, why aren't there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? The fact is everybody sins because we are sinners by nature.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Eph. 2:3 says we are all "by nature children of wrath."

If man is not born in sin, then wouldn't some people be sinless throughout their lives?
.

the tendency of people to sin is great....but for a few of us ...like they who never age...or they who have mental issues, I have no trouble believing that "they never sinned"

Also, as a person draws closer and closer to the Lord they drift away farther and farther from sinning....So I have no trouble believing that with growth in the Lord, sin becomes simply unknown in your personal life...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

James' position is newborn infants sin, and one of the things they do that is sinful is they are selfish.

Don't Mormon kids steal, hit, and lie?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Don't Mormon kids steal, hit, and lie?

Another dodge.

We aren't talking about kids. We are talking about newborn infants. Please stay on track here.

Do you agree with James that newborn infants are sinning simply by (as James says, being selfish) relying on the mother for their immediate sustenance?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Do you agree with James that newborn infants are sinning simply by (as James says, being selfish) relying on the mother for their immediate sustenance?

Disagree with Jim on this point.