This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

James' position is newborn infants sin, and one of the things they do that is sinful is they are selfish.

Don't Mormon kids steal, hit, and lie?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Don't Mormon kids steal, hit, and lie?

Another dodge.

We aren't talking about kids. We are talking about newborn infants. Please stay on track here.

Do you agree with James that newborn infants are sinning simply by (as James says, being selfish) relying on the mother for their immediate sustenance?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree with Jim on this point. Infants and small children sin by nature. They steal, they lie, they are selfish, they hit each other. You name it.

How does a newborn infant steal and lie? Please do not argue a strwman. We are talking only about newborn infants here.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sir, who gets into heaven based on his own righteousness?

Originally Posted by Sir

But the answer is no one.

That is correct Sir. This we agree. So if not one person gets to heaven based on his own righteousness this would also include infants correct?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is correct Sir. This we agree. So if not one person gets to heaven based on his own righteousness this would also include infants correct?

Why the strawman?

We aren't discussing whether or not we need Jesus to be saved, this we all know is true.

We are discussing what sins newborn infants commit.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Do you agree with James that newborn infants are sinning simply by (as James says, being selfish) relying on the mother for their immediate sustenance?

Disagree with Jim on this point.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

How does a newborn infant steal and lie?

Neonates IMO would not be able to lie and steal. That would be more consistent with older children.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Why the strawman?

What strawman?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Disagree with Jim on this point.

Okay.

Jim says you are all in agreement, so we'll have to see what he says when he weighs in again.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Jim says you are all in agreement, so we'll have to see what he says when he weighs in again.

We are all born with a sin nature. We all sin. No one is exempt from this. In this we are in agreement.

[Billyray]

Sir, do you think that you are getting anywhere with this thread?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Why the strawman?

Do you know what a straw man argument (or fallacy) really is?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sir, do you think that you are getting anywhere with this thread?

Absolutely. I am learning from you guys. Isn't that the point? I have learned that there are those who believe that since the Bible claims we are all sinners that babies born into this world are actually in the process of sinning. I've learned that some Christians even claim that a newborn infant that relys on its mother for sustenance is committing an act of sin.

That one made me wonder. Wouldn't Jesus Christ have relied on Mary as a newborn infant for his sustenance? According to this Christian, I am supposed to believe that Jesus must have been a sinner by committing the act of 'selfishness' as a newborn.

This thread is to enlighten and understand positions better. What's wrong with that? If you are done contributing to it that is okay.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

This thread is to enlighten and understand positions better. What's wrong with that? If you are done contributing to it that is okay.

Do you think that a LDS kid that is one or two years old who steals something is committing a sin?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Absolutely. I am learning from you guys. Isn't that the point? I have learned that there are those who believe that since the Bible claims we are all sinners that babies born into this world are actually in the process of sinning.

When the Bible says that we ALL sin do you think that this excludes infants?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

How can someone claim to have a better news, the good news, to offer LDS, when they believe that infants and mentally handicapped people are sinners?

Because the good news is that Jesus came to earth, lived a perfect life, died for us so that despite the fact that we ALL sin we can live with God in heaven. This is not based on our own righteousness like the LDS teach but on Christ's righteousness by placing our faith in him.

1 Cor 15:3 "For what I received I p***ed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. . ."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

That one made me wonder. Wouldn't Jesus Christ have relied on Mary as a newborn infant for his sustenance? According to this Christian, I am supposed to believe that Jesus must have been a sinner by committing the act of 'selfishness' as a newborn.

Christ was perfect and thus did not commit sin.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Christ was perfect and thus did not commit sin.

I agree. So when a Christian tells me that a newborn infant is sinning by being selfish (relying on mom for life) that would logically include Jesus Christ. So I am glad to see you disagree with James on this point.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When the Bible says that we ALL sin do you think that this excludes infants?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

It is not sinning when you do something without having a knowledge that it is right/ wrong, good/ bad. Since an infant does not have that ability or capability, infants cannot sin. If an infant and an adult both took something from someone without permission (***uming an infant could physically do that), to the adult it would be sinning but not the infant.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

I agree. So when a Christian tells me that a newborn infant is sinning by being selfish (relying on mom for life) that would logically include Jesus Christ. So I am glad to see you disagree with James on this point.

But you and I both know that Christ is unique. He is God, we are not. He is perfect, we are not. So it is not fair to compare Christ with any of us at any stage of our lives.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

It is not sinning when you do something without having a knowledge that it is right/ wrong, good/ bad.

I think this is at the heart of our disagreement. Breaking a commandment is a sin whether you know about it or not. You may not be accountable for breaking the commandment but you are still breaking the commandment and this is a sin.

Let me give you a real world example. A 4 year old child goes into the store and steals a piece of candy. What he did was against the law. However because of his age he will not be held liable for breaking this law.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

If an infant and an adult both took something from someone without permission (***uming an infant could physically do that), to the adult it would be sinning but not the infant.

Disagree with you on this point. Stealing is a sin, period. The adult presumably knew better and thus would be liable but the child likely would not. Lets look at a LDS scenario. You have a 7 year old who steals a piece of candy from the store. At this age he should know right from wrong. Is this kid committing sin according to the LDS church?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think this is at the heart of our disagreement. Breaking a commandment is a sin whether you know about it or not. You may not be accountable for breaking the commandment but you are still breaking the commandment and this is a sin.

Let me give you a real world example. A 4 year old child goes into the store and steals a piece of candy. What he did was against the law. However because of his age he will not be held liable for breaking this law.

Your disagreement is with the Bible, not me.

I showed you the verse that says what sin is. You have translated it to mean a sin is any breaking of a commandment regardless of your knowledge and understanding of it. The Bible disagrees with you on that.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you and I both know that Christ is unique. He is God, we are not. He is perfect, we are not. So it is not fair to compare Christ with any of us at any stage of our lives.

You are forced to take that position. The only comparison here is that James said an infant is committing sin by being selfish as a newborn. If that is committing sin, then regardless of the difference between us and Christ, logically Christ was committing sin as well. You can't say that man can do something and it is sin and Christ does the exact same thing but since he is Christ it isn't sin.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Your disagreement is with the Bible, not me.

I showed you the verse that says what sin is. You have translated it to mean a sin is any breaking of a commandment regardless of your knowledge and understanding of it. The Bible disagrees with you on that.

Leviticus 4:13 " 'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.


Your prooftext
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1. Know to do good and do not = sin (This is true as written and I agree with this)

2. But what about the reverse? If you don't know that you are breaking a commandment but break it anyway is this sin? The verse in Leviticus says it is. Your verse does not address this issue but the opposite of this.