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Thread: This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

  1. #51
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    You are forced to take that position. The only comparison here is that James said an infant is committing sin by being selfish as a newborn. If that is committing sin, then regardless of the difference between us and Christ, logically Christ was committing sin as well. You can't say that man can do something and it is sin and Christ does the exact same thing but since he is Christ it isn't sin.
    Christ is completely unique to any person who walked on the face of the earth because he is God. His life is completely different in that he did not sin, period. Not when he was an infant, not as a child, and not as an adult.

  2. #52
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Christ is completely unique to any person who walked on the face of the earth because he is God. His life is completely different in that he did not sin, period. Not when he was an infant, not as a child, and not as an adult.
    But again, you cannot say Christ and a man both do the same thing, and to the man it is sin and to Christ it isn't just because he is Christ. Just like people say that Christ can't lie or do anything that goes against his nature. So if Christ and a man both said the same thing, and you accuse the man of lying but Christ as not lying, there would be obvious disconnect there. That's the point here.

  3. #53
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    But again, you cannot say Christ and a man both do the same thing, and to the man it is sin and to Christ it isn't just because he is Christ. Just like people say that Christ can't lie or do anything that goes against his nature. So if Christ and a man both said the same thing, and you accuse the man of lying but Christ as not lying, there would be obvious disconnect there. That's the point here.
    I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say. I'll just reiterate that Christ is completely unique in that he did not sin.

  4. #54
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    So a newborn is selfish and thus a sinner by being selfish? Can you explain this?
    Selfishness is based in Exodus 20:17.. A baby is owed nothing, yet wants what isn't his/hers.. That is serious sin.. If that child's desires go unmet the scream and make life a living hell for everyone around them.. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 11-01-2010 at 09:19 AM.

  5. #55
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say. I'll just reiterate that Christ is completely unique in that he did not sin.
    I am not sure why you are having a hard time understanding me, except I believe that it is so obvious that you have to dis***ociate yourself with it in order to try and make sense of it.

    In a nutshell, your only recourse is to claim that since Jesus never sinned, no matter what he did was not a sin. So in the case James banta makes, ***ume that both you and Jesus were 'selfish' as newborns and cried for your mother's attention. To state that it is a serious sin for you to do it but not a sin for Jesus to do it makes no logical sense. Either both are guilty of the 'serious sin' or neither one is. But it can't be that one is right and one is wrong when doing the same thing.

  6. #56
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    .
    In a nutshell, your only recourse is to claim that since Jesus never sinned, no matter what he did was not a sin. So in the case James banta makes, ***ume that both you and Jesus were 'selfish' as newborns and cried for your mother's attention. To state that it is a serious sin for you to do it but not a sin for Jesus to do it makes no logical sense. Either both are guilty of the 'serious sin' or neither one is. But it can't be that one is right and one is wrong when doing the same thing.
    No recourse at all. Jesus did not sin. Are you going to claim otherwise?

  7. #57
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    No recourse at all. Jesus did not sin. Are you going to claim otherwise?
    No. But I see you are refusing to engage in the logical conclusion of this whole argument. For you, Jesus never sinned and that's the bottom line. I agree he didn't. But that leaves som 'splainin to do when someone claims that men are committing serious sins when they do natural things that even Jesus did.

    But since you didn't make the comment, you don't have to continue trying to defend it. Feel free to move on.

  8. #58
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    But that leaves som 'splainin to do when someone claims that men are committing serious sins when they do natural things that even Jesus did.
    It is natural for kids to lie and hit and steal. Are you saying that Jesus did the same?

  9. #59
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    It is natural for kids to lie and hit and steal. Are you saying that Jesus did the same?
    oops...you did it again. We're not talking about kids, we're talking about infants crying for their mommies. It's natural for infants to do this. And yes Jesus did this. ANd no that isn't a sin. And yes one of your brothers in Christ said that crying for mommies is a "serious sin".

  10. #60
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    oops...you did it again. .
    No I didn't do anything again. You said "someone claims that men are committing serious sins when they do natural things that even Jesus did."

    You said MEN not neonates. BTW are we really arguing about whether or not Jesus committed sin? Certainly you can find something a little bit more productive than this, don't you think? You can go on page after page after page and you will not get any traction on this one. But do as you please and keep it up if you like.

  11. #61
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    No I didn't do anything again. You said "someone claims that men are committing serious sins when they do natural things that even Jesus did."

    You said MEN not neonates. BTW are we really arguing about whether or not Jesus committed sin? Certainly you can find something a little bit more productive than this, don't you think? You can go on page after page after page and you will not get any traction on this one. But do as you please and keep it up if you like.
    I'm sorry you took "men" to mean literal men. I used "men" to differentiate between the perfect holy Christ and mortals. But the context was about infants, so I apologize it wasn't clear.

    If you don't find it productive you don't have to respond. You are right that is hasn't been prodictive since nobody has been able to reconcile how mortal infants that cry for mommy are committing serious sin by doing so but Jesus crying for mommy is not a serious sin. The issue is as simple as that.

  12. #62
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    You are right that is hasn't been prodictive since nobody has been able to reconcile how mortal infants that cry for mommy are committing serious sin by doing so but Jesus crying for mommy is not a serious sin. The issue is as simple as that.
    Have you ever thought that crying is not a sin and that you have pick out this one example from another poster and ran with it? But at the same time it still does not change the fact that ALL men including infants are sinners and that Christ is not, which is exactly where we were at the start of this whole discussion.

  13. #63
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Have you ever thought that crying is not a sin and that you have pick out this one example from another poster and ran with it? But at the same time it still does not change the fact that ALL men including infants are sinners and that Christ is not, which is exactly where we were at the start of this whole discussion.
    Sure I think crying is not a sin. But when you have one guy who attacks LDS doctrines make this claim, and then claims that all other christians on this board agree with him, it isn't a crime to investigate this furthur and find out how someone can hold on to such paradoxical conclusions.

    And no, it is not a fact that infants are sinners. That is a debateable issue, not a fact.

  14. #64
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    And no, it is not a fact that infants are sinners. That is a debateable issue, not a fact.
    When the Bible says that ALL have sinned you believe this exempts a certain group of people?

  15. #65
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am not sure which quote you are referring to, can you quote it for me.
    We sin because we are sinners.. that i what I was saying to Him.. He asked what sins a baby could commit.. I told there there are no age restrictions on any of the commandments.. A baby demands to be feed clothed and served.. That is selfishness and covetousness.. It doesn't matter that we agree to give them these things the nature desire of that infant is to have their needs met even at the expense of others.. Therefore babies are in sin just like the rest of us.. I do believe that Jesus Holds them in His grace until they become self aware, but that has nothing to do with them still being sinners and sinning.. IHS jim

  16. #66
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    I am not sure why you are having a hard time understanding me, except I believe that it is so obvious that you have to dis***ociate yourself with it in order to try and make sense of it.

    In a nutshell, your only recourse is to claim that since Jesus never sinned, no matter what he did was not a sin. So in the case James banta makes, ***ume that both you and Jesus were 'selfish' as newborns and cried for your mother's attention. To state that it is a serious sin for you to do it but not a sin for Jesus to do it makes no logical sense. Either both are guilty of the 'serious sin' or neither one is. But it can't be that one is right and one is wrong when doing the same thing.
    being given care as was the case for Jesus is not the same thing as demanding care as we did as infants.. Jesus is said had no sin.. Because of that He never demanded anything even as a infant.. I claim the Bible in this matter you can claim your own thought if you wish Scripture in more authoritative..
    2 Cor 5:21
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    There seems to be a lot about the scripture that you just can't, or won't, accept.. IHS jim

  17. #67
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Because I don't want this thread to be removed on the basis of personal attacks I will refrain from citing the poster whose words these are. But this is the kind of thinking that makes LDS like me wonder why critics of the LDS think they have something better to offer the LDS:


    1) Is it really foolish to think that one must actually do something in order to be called someone who does that thing? Can I call someone a rapist if he never committed rape? Can I call someone a thief if he has never stolen? etc.

    2) How can someone claim to have a better news, the good news, to offer LDS, when they believe that infants and mentally handicapped people are sinners? I agree with the BoM that states people who believe an infant, a baby that has no comprehension of reality, let alone the ability to make a rational choice to choose between good and evil and consciously choose one or the other, is in the gall of bitterness.


    God Himself said in his Word, that all have sinned. All have fallen short. There's no one righteous. All our righteous acts are filthy rags before God. However, a baby does not sin the day he is born, but he is born with a sin capacity. A sin nature. He cannot escape it and yes, this is the result of the Fall.

    The "Good News" is that Christ has overcome the sins of the world. He paid our sin debt in full, set us free and reconciled us to God the Father. The death and punishment we deserve, He took upon Himself at Calvary. We don't have to try to earn it or work for it through church rites, rituals, ordinances, laws, Temple work, marriage sealing. We only need to come to Christ in sincere humility acknowledging that we are lost sinners and that Christ alone saves and offers eternal life. Its a free gift. if you are working for it through obedience to a myriad of ordinances and laws and church works, then you are denying that its a free gift.

  18. #68
    glm1978
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    Has anyone following this considered the age of accountability in this matter? A newborn or very young child does have the capacity to sin but do they understand that what they are doing is sin? With infants that have cannot speak or express with a known language how they feel, crying is their only form of communication. Yes, babies are selfish but as an adult we understand that they need food, diaper changes, get tired and cranky, get sick and are in pain, but they can't tell us what's wrong except by crying. Sometimes babies and little children just want to be held (yes that is selfish on their part) but that is one way they can feel the love of their parents and others so that the babies bond with people.

  19. #69
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by glm1978 View Post
    Has anyone following this considered the age of accountability in this matter? A newborn or very young child does have the capacity to sin but do they understand that what they are doing is sin? With infants that have cannot speak or express with a known language how they feel, crying is their only form of communication. Yes, babies are selfish but as an adult we understand that they need food, diaper changes, get tired and cranky, get sick and are in pain, but they can't tell us what's wrong except by crying. Sometimes babies and little children just want to be held (yes that is selfish on their part) but that is one way they can feel the love of their parents and others so that the babies bond with people.
    I agree, I just was pointing out that we sin because we are sinners not because we sin.. It is our nature to sin so from birth we follow that nature..We hold to that until we are reborn from above, BORN AGAIN..

    Even the BofM agrees with this point saying "The natural man is am enemy of God" (Mosiah 3: 19).. Yet they deny even this their own scripture saying that "a person comes into this world clean and pure.." They deny their own "scripture" in that doctrine.. IHS jim

  20. #70
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    And no, it is not a fact that infants are sinners. That is a debateable issue, not a fact.
    When the Bible says that ALL have sinned you believe this exempts a certain group of people?

  21. #71
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    When the Bible says that ALL have sinned you believe this exempts a certain group of people?
    I can only ***ume that to mormons ALL means SOME.. IHS jim

  22. #72
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by glm1978 View Post
    Has anyone following this considered the age of accountability in this matter?
    Where is "the age of accountability" found in the Bible?

  23. #73
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Where is "the age of accountability" found in the Bible?
    It isn't in the Bible and that's the point. The lds however, places the age of accountability at 8.

    Moroni 8:8 in the BoM states that "little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin, wherefore the curse of Adam istaken from them in me."

    Walter Martin, in his book: The Kingdom of the Cults says regarding this: "Anyone who thinks that children under age 8 cannot sin has not visited the cl***rooms of today's schools."

  24. #74
    ErikErik
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    There are more than a few quotes from the early church fathers that confirm humans are born in sin which came from Adam's transgression. Tertullian wrote: " Every soul by reason of its birth, has a nature in Adam until it is born-again in Christ. Moreover, it is unclean all the while that it remains without this regeneration, and because it is unclean, it is actively sinful."

    Psalms 58:3 says: The wicked are estranged from the womb. They go astray as soon as they are born."

    Origen said of this verse: "They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

    Origen also wrote: "It is evident that no one is pure either by essence or nature..in the Trinity alone does goodness exist."

    Ps. 51:5 says: "Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceived me." nrajeff thinks this means that it was David's mother who sinned. However, David was conceived in chaste wedlock.

  25. #75
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    When the Bible says that ALL have sinned you believe this exempts a certain group of people?
    ---Of course. If you think it was intended to mean literally all beings in existence, then you believe it says that God and Jesus sinned.

    LDS have the sense to realize that it's foolish to take it in an absolutely literal way, just like "In Jerusalem there were Jews from every nation under heaven." I guess YOU believe it's saying that even Jews from ancient, precolumbian America were there...right?

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