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Thread: This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

  1. #76
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Of course. If you think it was intended to mean literally all beings in existence, then you believe it says that God and Jesus sinned.

    LDS have the sense to realize that it's foolish to take it in an absolutely literal way, just like "In Jerusalem there were Jews from every nation under heaven." I guess YOU believe it's saying that even Jews from ancient, precolumbian America were there...right?
    So besides Jesus what group of people are exempt?

  2. #77
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Of course. If you think it was intended to mean literally all beings in existence, then you believe it says that God and Jesus sinned.


    Well, we certainly know that the "God" and "Jesus" of Mormonism had to have sinned, if what the Mormons have to say about them is true.

    As for ***erting that because the Bible says that "all have sinned" implies a confession from God that He sinned as well, that would either implicate God in an absurdity or a lie, neither of which is possible, otherwise we would not be here at all. Therefore, context must rule the day when interpreting the verse, otherwise the Bible is worthless as a valid source of objectivity when dealing with such questions.

    LDS have the sense to realize that it's foolish to take it in an absolutely literal way, just like "In Jerusalem there were Jews from every nation under heaven."
    It's just too bad that the LDS don't have the sense to realize that they're all under a curse because the solution they propose to cleanse from sin is not the same one that God recommends.

    I guess YOU believe it's saying that even Jews from ancient, precolumbian America were there...right?
    Hey Jeff, lets go another one of your infamous diversionary excursions that have nothing to do with the original question, okay?

  3. #78
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Of course. If you think it was intended to mean literally all beings in existence, then you believe it says that God and Jesus sinned.

    LDS have the sense to realize that it's foolish to take it in an absolutely literal way, just like "In Jerusalem there were Jews from every nation under heaven." I guess YOU believe it's saying that even Jews from ancient, precolumbian America were there...right?
    While its true that some parts of the Bible speaks in metaphors, such as God having wings or feathers, it is an entirely different thing altogether when the Bible speaks of true doctrines such as the doctrine of God and Salvation.The Bible says that all have sinned. All have fallen short. There is no one righteous, no not one, this is God speaking. There is not a single human being who is without sin.
    It does not say all beings in existence and you are cunning to even suggest that. God is speaking very clearly here and we all need to listen.

  4. #79
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Well, we certainly know that the "God" and "Jesus" of Mormonism had to have sinned, if what the Mormons have to say about them is true.

    As for ***erting that because the Bible says that "all have sinned" implies a confession from God that He sinned as well, that would either implicate God in an absurdity or a lie, neither of which is possible, otherwise we would not be here at all. Therefore, context must rule the day when interpreting the verse, otherwise the Bible is worthless as a valid source of objectivity when dealing with such questions.



    It's just too bad that the LDS don't have the sense to realize that they're all under a curse because the solution they propose to cleanse from sin is not the same one that God recommends.



    Hey Jeff, lets go another one of your infamous diversionary excursions that have nothing to do with the original question, okay?
    I have said all along that according to mormonism's view of God and Christ being once like us, that it certainly has to mean that God and Christ must have sinned while they were men. Then Erik said the same thing and this lead to a poll by Jeff and a thread started by Sir.

  5. #80
    nrajeff
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    And that poll showed that you are making a false statement when you accuse the LDS of believing that Jesus, His Father in Heaven and the Holy Spirit were all once sinful men. And now you have suckered Brian into following your false preaching. Congrats. Billy, Libs, and Jim Banta were honest enough and BRAVE enough to stand up and put their names to their refutation of your accusation.

    What can you really say about that? You gonna accuse THEM of having finite, carnal minds that are unable to understand the Bible, and THAT explains why they say you are wrong?

    Just keep on digging. Maybe you can get to China and emerge from your self-made hole THERE. Meanwhile, the rest of us get to watch you self-destruct.

  6. #81
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    And that poll showed that you are making a false statement when you accuse the LDS of believing that Jesus, His Father in Heaven and the Holy Spirit were all once sinful men. And now you have suckered Brian into following your false preaching. Congrats. Billy, Libs, and Jim Banta were honest enough and BRAVE enough to stand up and put their names to their refutation of your accusation.


    Hey Jeff, why shouldn't a person believe that the Mormon "God" and "Jesus" sinned, when both lived the same kinds of lives that all humans do and neither were gods when doing it?

    What can you really say about that? You gonna accuse THEM of having finite, carnal minds that are unable to understand the Bible, and THAT explains why they say you are wrong?
    I'm going to say that I think that the Mormons are afraid to be consistent with their prophets and doctrine. Are you going to demonstrate otherwise by providing a cogent line of thinking which shows that "Heavenly Father" and "Jesus" were not sinners, and how they managed to escape sinning as mere human beings?

    Just keep on digging. Maybe you can get to China and emerge from your self-made hole THERE. Meanwhile, the rest of us get to watch you self-destruct.
    There's nothing to dig for when Mormon teaching keeps providing conflicted statements originating out of the pit itself.

  7. #82
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Hey Jeff, why shouldn't a person believe that the Mormon "God" and "Jesus" sinned, when both lived the same kinds of lives that all humans do and neither were gods when doing it?
    --Why should a person think you are truthfully characterizing LDS theology?
    Answer: They shouldn't, obviously. Especially if they know that LDS teach that Jesus was the DEITY Jehovah before His incarnation. Especially if they know that LDS teach that Jesus' Father is just like Him, and since LDS TEACH THAT JESUS NEVER SINNED, it means that His Father didn't either.

    Why should anyone think that you'd get away with saying things about LDS doctrine that are false?

  8. #83
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --Why should a person think you are truthfully characterizing LDS theology?


    Why shouldn't they?

    Answer: They shouldn't, obviously. Especially if they know that LDS teach that Jesus was the DEITY Jehovah before His incarnation. Especially if they know that LDS teach that Jesus' Father is just like Him, and since LDS TEACH THAT JESUS NEVER SINNED, it means that His Father didn't either.
    So, how did Jesus become God without ever going through all the Eternal Progression prerequisites? Moreover, how did he do something he never saw his father do, since he was nothing but a mere man, who did sin, prior to becoming something which is logically absurd to do, namely go from a finite "intelligence" to an infinitely contingent "God" (if the latter makes any sense at all)?

    Why should anyone think that you'd get away with saying things about LDS doctrine that are false?
    You haven't demonstrated anywhere that what I've written is false. In fact, all you keep doing is dancing around the questions like your Mormon cohorts keep doing.

  9. #84
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Why shouldn't they?
    --They should not think that you are truthfully characterizing LDS theology because it's so obvious that you aren't. Even a majority of your fellow Evangelical Christians here say so. Next question.

    So, how did Jesus become God without ever going through all the Eternal Progression prerequisites?
    ---Go here

    http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/?cid=wpats1

    and educate yourself regarding Jesus.

    Specific answer to your question is here:

    http://broadcast.lds.org/Handheld/Cu...hechrist04.mp3


    You haven't demonstrated anywhere that what I've written is false.
    ---You made the ***ertion, the burden of making anyone believe your ***ertion is valid rests on you.

  10. #85
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --Why should a person think you are truthfully characterizing LDS theology?
    Answer: They shouldn't, obviously. Especially if they know that LDS teach that Jesus was the DEITY Jehovah before His incarnation. Especially if they know that LDS teach that Jesus' Father is just like Him, and since LDS TEACH THAT JESUS NEVER SINNED, it means that His Father didn't either.

    Why should anyone think that you'd get away with saying things about LDS doctrine that are false?
    Oh, but, nra, who was Jesus before he was Jehovah? Wasn't he a man like you?

  11. #86
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --They should not think that you are truthfully characterizing LDS theology because it's so obvious that you aren't. Even a majority of your fellow Evangelical Christians here say so. Next question.


    I think you need to go back and read some of the posts by the Christians on here. They have told you that God and Christ, while still mortal men must have been capable of sinning. And they told you your poll was meaningless the way you set it up.

    The very fact that you give us links goes to show that you are incapable of discussing lds theology.

    By the way, where are your lds comrades? Looks like they abandoned the ship because they realize its nearly sunk.

  12. #87
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    Oh, but, nra, who was Jesus before he was Jehovah? Wasn't he a man like you?
    ---Who told you THAT is LDS doctrine? LOL. How could Jesus have been a mortal man BEFORE He was incarnated as a mortal about 2010 years ago? Do you really think that LDS doctrine is that Jesus was mortal more than once?

    Where are you GETTING such patently false ideas about LDS doctrines? I really want to know, because although I have seen some wacky claims about what LDS believe, your claims are pushing the envelope.

    What will you ***ert next--that LDS have an exact replica of the Oval Office in their temple so they can run the USA after they take over? That is no more wacky than what you have been claiming.

  13. #88
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    I think you need to go back and read some of the posts by the Christians on here. They have told you that God and Christ, while still mortal men must have been capable of sinning.
    ---They said that? And you call them CHRISTIANS?

    And they told you your poll was meaningless the way you set it up.
    --Really? So Sword says "the lds teaching (is) that these three, The Father, the Word, (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit were once sinful men."

    And I ask everyone "Is what he said true--is that REALLY LDS doctrine ?"

    And YOU claim that's an INVALID poll? LOL. What makes it invalid, pray tell.
    Next you'll be saying that if Sword had said "2+2=99" and I asked you whether his statement is correct, THAT would be an invalid poll, too.

    HELLO? Is your illogic not obvious?


    The very fact that you give us links goes to show that you are incapable of discussing lds theology.
    ---Oh. So to you extremist Evangelical cultists, if a person provides references to support an argument, it means they are incapable of discussion? You are really out of your Communistic Christians comfort zone when you come here, aren't you? Tell Bob he needs to do a better *** of preparing his disciples for the real world before he sends them out of the commune.

  14. #89
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --They should not think that you are truthfully characterizing LDS theology because it's so obvious that you aren't. Even a majority of your fellow Evangelical Christians here say so. Next question.
    Sure it's obvious, Jeff. It's so obvious that you either cannot remember anything that was untruthful or you simply don't have the stones to mention anything out of fear of being shown otherwise.


    [COLOR="Purple"]---Go here

    and educate yourself regarding Jesus.
    What's wrong with going to the Bible to educate oneself about Jesus? Mormons do believe the Bible, don't they?

    Specific answer to your question is here:
    In other words, you don't have an answer. You do realize that with enough confessions, you just might stumble upon reality itself?

    ---You made the ***ertion, the burden of making anyone believe your ***ertion is valid rests on you.
    Actually, it was you making the ***ertion, and we have yet to see anything of substance which would lead anyone to believe you were telling the truth.

  15. #90
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Who told you THAT is LDS doctrine? LOL. How could Jesus have been a mortal man BEFORE He was incarnated as a mortal about 2010 years ago? Do you really think that LDS doctrine is that Jesus was mortal more than once?

    Where are you GETTING such patently false ideas about LDS doctrines? I really want to know, because although I have seen some wacky claims about what LDS believe, your claims are pushing the envelope.

    What will you ***ert next--that LDS have an exact replica of the Oval Office in their temple so they can run the USA after they take over? That is no more wacky than what you have been claiming.
    Oh my nra, are you confused. Now you are saying that Jesus did not become a man until Mary gave birth to him. But then you say he was Jehovah in the OT. So was he always Jehovah? Who's lying here, you or your church when its said that all gods were once men who had to progress to be the gods they are now? If Jesus was always Jehovah God, then by your own admission he was never a man who progressed to godhood. If he didn't become a man until Mary gave birth to him, and was Jehovah before that, then how can you say all gods were once men?? When did Jesus progress? Before he became Jehovah, or after Mary gave birth to him?

    Sounds like you need to find another church, a Christian one.

  16. #91
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Sure it's obvious, Jeff.
    --Correct. My poll made it obvious that what YOU 'feeel' to be LDS doctrine, it NOT. Which means, OBVIOUSLY, that when you claim it IS, you are making a false statement. A false claim. A false accusation or ***ertion. Why are you fighting against the statements from Libs, Jim Banta, and Billy Ray? AT least they were honest enough to say that LDS DO NOT teach that Jesus, His Father, and the Holy SPIRIT were once sinful men. Why is it so hard for you and your kindred spirit Sword99 to admit that you are wrong even according to other Evangelical Christians?

    It's so obvious that you either cannot remember anything that was untruthful or you simply don't have the stones to mention anything out of fear of being shown otherwise.
    --Do you remember the poll from 6 days ago? Do you remember the results? Do YOU have the stones to admit that although you made false statements regarding LDS doctrine, you were shown otherwise?
    Do you intend to maintain your false accusations, even when your fellow Evangelical Christians stated that your accusations are false?


    What's wrong with going to the Bible to educate oneself about Jesus?
    ---You wouldn't have been satisfied with just the Bible. You asked:

    "how did Jesus become God without ever going through all the Eternal Progression prerequisites?"

    and the Bible would not have given you an answer you would be happy with.

    Actually, it was you making the ***ertion
    --Really? Was it ME who ***erted that LDS doctrine is that Jesus, His Faher, and the Holy SPIRIT were once sinful men? I thought it was one of you extremist Westboro types. I thought I was DENYING the validity of the ***ertion. Are you having trouble keeping the players in the game sorted out in your mind?

    YOU attacked. WE ask you to back up your attack with evidence. It's not really that hard to understand how it works.

    And when it comes to your backing up your ***ertion that LDS doctrine is that Jesus, His Faher, and the Holy SPIRIT were once sinful men.....


    we have yet to see anything of substance which would lead anyone to believe you were telling the truth.
    Last edited by nrajeff; 11-02-2010 at 11:44 AM.

  17. #92
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    [COLOR="Purple"]--Correct. My poll made it obvious that what YOU 'feeel' to be LDS doctrine, it NOT.
    Your poll doesn't mean squat. And since it's your leaders that I allude to when making a statement, then my feelings about the subject are as irrelevant as your poll.

    --Do you remember the poll from 6 days ago? Do you remember the results? Do YOU have the stones to admit that although you made false statements regarding LDS doctrine, you were shown otherwise?
    Do you intend to maintain your false accusations, even when your fellow Evangelical Christians stated that your accusations are false?
    One more time, your poll doesn't mean squat, and you have yet to prove that anything I've asked about was false.

    ---You wouldn't have been satisfied with just the Bible. You asked:

    "how did Jesus become God without ever going through all the Eternal Progression prerequisites?"

    and the Bible would not have given you an answer you would be happy with.
    And you never answered the question. Now, just why was that? It's because there is no such thing as eternally progressing unto godhood found in the Bible.

    --Really? Was it ME who ***erted that LDS doctrine is that Jesus, His Faher, and the Holy SPIRIT were once sinful men? I thought it was one of you extremist Westboro types. I thought I was DENYING the validity of the ***ertion. Are you having trouble keeping the players in the game sorted out in your mind?


    No need to deny Mormon doctrine, given that you're a Mormon. Unless, of course, you're simply trying to be deceitful; then we understand, since that is an intentional or non-intentional part of being a Mormon.

    YOU attacked. WE ask you to back up your attack with evidence. It's not really that hard to understand how it works.
    Are you now denying that the little "god" you worship was once a man who "progressed" into becoming a god? If not, then you have your proof, just as I have that he by necessity had to sin, since he was not a god prior to becoming one. It's called the effects that sin has had upon all creation, which now groans for redemption (Rom. 8:22).

    And when it comes to your backing up your ***ertion that LDS doctrine is that Jesus, His Faher, and the Holy SPIRIT were once sinful men.....
    How did Jesus manage to become a god, if what the Mormon leadership has to say about the father is true, namely that he did what he saw his father do? And as for the Holy Spirit, just how did he become a god without going through all the prerequisites necessarily laid out in the Mormon doctrine of Eternal Progression? In fact, since Mormon cosmology is cyclical, then somewhere in the universe the HS' parents had to have sinned in order that they might have joy, meaning that he was born with a sin nature as well.

    What a tangled web we weave, when we set out to form doctrine apart from the Bible.

    we have yet to see anything of substance which would lead anyone to believe you were telling the truth.
    And you've provided nothing to refute the reality of just where your doctrine leads when thought out to its logical conclusion.

  18. #93
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Your poll doesn't mean squat. And since it's your leaders that I allude to when making a statement, then my feelings about the subject are as irrelevant as your poll.



    .
    Poor nra. That poll was a joke and proved nothing.

  19. #94
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    Poor nra. That poll was a joke and proved nothing.
    Yeah, it's kind of sad that Jeff seems to think that his impromptu poll carries more authority than what his church leaders have been saying for quite some time now. It makes one wonder why Jeff would even want to claim to be a Mormon. Why doesn't he just set out and start his own splinter cult of Mormonism like so many Mormons already have done?
    Last edited by B2M5L2; 11-02-2010 at 01:48 PM.

  20. #95
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --Correct. My poll made it obvious that what YOU 'feeel' to be LDS doctrine, it NOT. Which means, OBVIOUSLY, that when you claim it IS, you are making a false statement. A false claim. A false accusation or ***ertion. Why are you fighting against the statements from Libs, Jim Banta, and Billy Ray? AT least they were honest enough to say that LDS DO NOT teach that Jesus, His Father, and the Holy SPIRIT were once sinful men. Why is it so hard for you and your kindred spirit Sword99 to admit that you are wrong even according to other Evangelical Christians?

    Jeff, your church does not have the courage to say that it was possible that God and Jesus Christ sinned when they were in their mortal stage because if they did, they would be guilty of blasphemy and many lds would leave the church. But the fact is your church insinuates it by claiming that gods were once men like you and me. How can one teach that God was once a man like you, but turn around and say He never sinned, was not even capable of sinning? I guess your founder and subsequent leaders didn't look ahead to the future and see the complications and consequences of trying to establish blasphemous doctrines.

    Its just more denials and cover-ups.

  21. #96
    nrajeff
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    Ah. So you're saying that the church does NOT in fact teach what you claimed it teaches, but if it DID teach it, then your accusation would not have been a dishonest one?

    I can agree with that.

  22. #97
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    Ah. So you're saying that the church does NOT in fact teach what you claimed it teaches, but if it DID teach it, then your accusation would not have been a dishonest one?

    I can agree with that.
    Your church dug themselves a huge hole that they can't get out of. They cannot dispute the very real possibility that if gods were once men, which includes God and Jesus Christ, then they too must have sinned,

  23. #98
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Your church dug themselves a huge hole that they can't get out of. They cannot dispute the very real possibility that if gods were once men, which includes God and Jesus Christ, then they too must have sinned,
    ----And your claim is a fairly good example of fallacious reasoning, because it is entirely possible that a deity could have one mortal offspring who never sinned, even if all the others did sin. Becoming mortal does not guarantee that a person will sin, and Jesus is proof of that.

    In other words: The fact that YOU are a sinner does not necessarily mean that JESUS has to be a sinner.

    I wonder how long it will take before you see the illogic of your position.

  24. #99
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    The fact that YOU are a sinner does not necessarily mean that JESUS has to be a sinner.
    But both can become a god. In fact the vast majority of gods out there were former sinners on another planet if you extrapolate LDS
    theology.

  25. #100
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But both can become a god. In fact the vast majority of gods out there were former sinners on another planet if you extrapolate LDS
    theology.
    ---Even if that is true, it STILL does not validate your claim that "since other mortals sinned, it means that JESUS must have sinned."

    Your claim is invalid. It is like saying, "Since I and most other students in this cl*** got a C or D or F, then it's impossible that the super-smart kid could have gotten an A."

    You are still lost in Fallacy Land, Billy.

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