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Thread: This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

  1. #101
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Even if that is true, it STILL does not validate your claim that "since other mortals sinned, it means that JESUS must have sinned."

    Your claim is invalid. It is like saying, "Since I and most other students in this cl*** got a C or D or F, then it's impossible that the super-smart kid could have gotten an A."

    You are still lost in Fallacy Land, Billy.
    Wrong again Jeff, Since YOU believe Jesus was once a mortal, then he must have sinned since all mortals do. This isn't rocket science.

    Your ****ogy doesn't even come close to what we're talking about. All men sin.

    Seems the ld wants us to believe that some mortals don't sin.

  2. #102
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Even if that is true, it STILL does not validate your claim that "since other mortals sinned, it means that JESUS must have sinned."
    Jeff, quote me where I said that Jesus sinned. I think you are confused on this one.

  3. #103
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do you think this kind of thinking is scary? We are all sinners by nature and we all sin because of our sin nature. I think that you will find that this concept is not unique to a single poster but rather a commonly held Christian belief. If this were not so then you would expect to see sinless people but you don't. Now what I think that you are confusing is sin and accountability. For example a 4 year old can go into a store and steal a piece of candy. This act is breaking the law, but because of his age he would not be held accountable for that crime, but it is still a crime.
    In Gods eyes it is not a sin, since the innocent cannot be held accountable.
    God will judge the infant as innocent of sin, since the sin can only be judged as sin if the person willingly disobeys and recognizes it's a sin.

  4. #104
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    In Gods eyes it is not a sin, since the innocent cannot be held accountable.
    God will judge the infant as innocent of sin, since the sin can only be judged as sin if the person willingly disobeys and recognizes it's a sin.

    Oh but "innocent" Adam and Eve were indeed held accountable.

    And according to nrajeff, Adam and Eve were infants.

  5. #105
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    since the sin can only be judged as sin if the person willingly disobeys and recognizes it's a sin.
    So a person can kill and commit adultery etc. and this is not sin as long as he does not recognize that he is breaking God's laws such as would be the case for an atheist?

  6. #106
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    In Gods eyes it is not a sin, since the innocent cannot be held accountable.
    God will judge the infant as innocent of sin, since the sin can only be judged as sin if the person willingly disobeys and recognizes it's a sin.
    Did Eve recognize that she was disobeying God? Bible says she was deceived. Yet God meted out punishment.

  7. #107
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    Oh but "innocent" Adam and Eve were indeed held accountable.

    And according to nrajeff, Adam and Eve were infants.
    Innocent no, because they were told what they could and could not do.
    Accountable for being disobedient, do you not know the scriptures? dude.

  8. #108
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So a person can kill and commit adultery etc. and this is not sin as long as he does not recognize that he is breaking God's laws such as would be the case for an atheist?
    Hmmm, thought we were discussing those not old enough to be accountable, when did you decide to deflect from this issue?

  9. #109
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    Did Eve recognize that she was disobeying God? Bible says she was deceived. Yet God meted out punishment.
    Did not God the Father tell her not to eat the Apple? did she not make a choice? did Satin force her to disobey? did she not know the consequences of her action? She understood obedience and disobedience. Yes or no, right or wrong.

    Mormons believe Adam's fall was part of the Lord's plan for His children.

  10. #110
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Did not God the Father tell her not to eat the Apple? did she not make a choice? did Satin force her to disobey? did she not know the consequences of her action? She understood obedience and disobedience. Yes or no, right or wrong.

    Mormons believe Adam's fall was part of the Lord's plan for His children.
    According to your fellow mormon, nrajeff, Adam and Eve were babies and not capable of understanding right from wrong.

    According to the bible, nowhere does it say that God told Eve not to eat of the fruit. He commanded Adam not to. This is why Eve was deceived, but Adam deliberately disobeyed.

    Mormons believe that Adam and Eve's transgression against God was a blessing. That's satan's lie. What is the definition of transgression? Look it up in a bible dictionary.
    Last edited by ErikErik; 11-03-2010 at 11:23 AM.

  11. #111
    Jean Chauvin
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    You lost me with the word "because."

    Respectfully,

    Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

  12. #112
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Did not God the Father tell her not to eat the Apple? did she not make a choice? did Satin force her to disobey? did she not know the consequences of her action? She understood obedience and disobedience. Yes or no, right or wrong.

    Mormons believe Adam's fall was part of the Lord's plan for His children.
    And who said that the Mormon "God" never sinned? Here Chuck has out-and-out implicated his "God" in sin, and this was after he became a god. Thanks Chuck for another admission, but it really wasn't necessary, since we already deduced that your "God" sinned from statements that your leaders have made about him being a human being at some point in his existence.
    Last edited by B2M5L2; 11-03-2010 at 02:33 PM.

  13. #113
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    we already deduced that your "God" sinned from statements that your leaders have made about him being a human being at some point in his existence.
    So, logically, since Jesus was a human at some point in His existence, we are to deduce that he was a sinner?

    Your logic just blew up like an atomic hand grenade.

  14. #114
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Hmmm, thought we were discussing those not old enough to be accountable, when did you decide to deflect from this issue?
    When you made the following statement
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    God will judge the infant as innocent of sin, since the sin can only be judged as sin if the person willingly disobeys and recognizes it's a sin.

  15. #115
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    So, logically, since Jesus was a human at some point in His existence, we are to deduce that he was a sinner?
    Following the LDS line of thinking, absolutely. Following the Bible's line of thought, absolutely not.

    Your logic just blew up like an atomic hand grenade.
    That's what will happen if one follows the LDS line of thinking. So, why do you persist to follow something that by your own admittance will **** up on you?

  16. #116
    ErikErik
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    I don't think most lds have examined some of their beliefs very closely. They just accept what they are taught. Thus the implications of God and Christ having once been mortal men could also mean they had sinned, has never really occurred to the lds. Many get appalled when others suggest this very real possibility. Just like when you tell the lds that their leaders have taught that God had sex with Mary, the mother of Jesus, they try to deny this because its shocking.

    By the same token, when you ask them where the first man got his body and if Heavenly Father has a father, why then does he say in the Scriptures that he knows of no other gods, the lds cannot answer. However, the Bible tells us God is a spirit. He was never a man. So for the Christian, we know the answers to these questions because God revealed them to us in His Word..

  17. #117
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    In Gods eyes it is not a sin, since the innocent cannot be held accountable.
    God will judge the infant as innocent of sin, since the sin can only be judged as sin if the person willingly disobeys and recognizes it's a sin.
    I'm not so sure that the Bible says God will judge infants as innocent, but rather, because of God's grace they will be declared forgiven. The Bible says all have sinned. It doesn't make any exceptions. It is because of what Jesus Christ did at Calvary that makes forgiveness possible.

  18. #118
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    According to your fellow mormon, nrajeff, Adam and Eve were babies and not capable of understanding right from wrong.

    According to the bible, nowhere does it say that God told Eve not to eat of the fruit. He commanded Adam not to. This is why Eve was deceived, but Adam deliberately disobeyed.

    Mormons believe that Adam and Eve's transgression against God was a blessing. That's satan's lie. What is the definition of transgression? Look it up in a bible dictionary.
    Adam and Eve did not comprehend just yet what the consequences were by being disobedient. They understood that they could make a choice, just like any infant eventually learns. The result of using our agency is the consequences of our choices; good choices produce good consequences, bad consequences produce wrong choices. Adam and Eve understood they faced two conflicting set of instructions-to avoid the fruit of the tree and to go forth and multiply.


    Lehi, the first prophet of the Book of Mormon, explained it this way:

    If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

    And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

    But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

    Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

    And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall.” (2 Nephi 2:22-26)
    The act that produced the Fall was not a sin-inherently wrong-but a transgression-wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall.” (Dallin H. Oaks, “‘The Great Plan of Happiness‘,” Ensign, Nov 1993, 72)

  19. #119
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    When you made the following statement

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Richard
    God will judge the infant as innocent of sin, since the sin can only be judged as sin if the person willingly disobeys and recognizes it's a sin.


    Your quote:
    "So a person can kill and commit adultery etc. and this is not sin as long as he does not recognize that he is breaking God's laws such as would be the case for an atheist?"


    How can that relate to a infant? Youere way out in left field, good buddy.

  20. #120
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    And who said that the Mormon "God" never sinned? Here Chuck has out-and-out implicated his "God" in sin, and this was after he became a god. Thanks Chuck for another admission, but it really wasn't necessary, since we already deduced that your "God" sinned from statements that your leaders have made about him being a human being at some point in his existence.
    Sadly you can't even answer the question, who created sin? MY, my BS, the **** that you come up with staggers the mind.

  21. #121
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    I don't think most lds have examined some of their beliefs very closely. They just accept what they are taught. Thus the implications of God and Christ having once been mortal men could also mean they had sinned, has never really occurred to the lds. Many get appalled when others suggest this very real possibility. Just like when you tell the lds that their leaders have taught that God had sex with Mary, the mother of Jesus, they try to deny this because its shocking.

    By the same token, when you ask them where the first man got his body and if Heavenly Father has a father, why then does he say in the Scriptures that he knows of no other gods, the lds cannot answer. However, the Bible tells us God is a spirit. He was never a man. So for the Christian, we know the answers to these questions because God revealed them to us in His Word..
    LOL, the scriptures never stated that God was not once a man, it is silent on this. So you add to the scriptures an opinion, your opinion and conclusion.
    Yes God is Spirit, as much as is His Son and also you and I. Who created sex, who says sex is not eternal. Just wondering where you get your theories from, surely not from the scriptures.

  22. #122
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    I'm not so sure that the Bible says God will judge infants as innocent, but rather, because of God's grace they will be declared forgiven. The Bible says all have sinned. It doesn't make any exceptions. It is because of what Jesus Christ did at Calvary that makes forgiveness possible.
    So you believe that infants can sin, amazing. But then again so are the Christian Creeds.

  23. #123
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Sadly you can't even answer the question, who created sin?


    Sin wasn't created. Otherwise, please cite a reference in Genesis where it says, "Then God said, let there be sin…"

    MY, my BS, the **** that you come up with staggers the mind.
    And you think that some sinful human being evolving into your "Heavenly Father" isn't staggering to the mind?

  24. #124
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    So you believe that infants can sin, amazing. But then again so are the Christian Creeds.
    Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

    Just in case you didn't know, Chuck, the Psalms are in the Bible.

  25. #125
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Sin wasn't created. Otherwise, please cite a reference in Genesis where it says, "Then God said, let there be sin…"



    And you think that some sinful human being evolving into your "Heavenly Father" isn't staggering to the mind?
    Thanks BS, I agree sin was not created, God did not make Satan evil, and evil has always existed or otherwise someone must have created it.

    Very astute my Calvin friend. So since God is from everlasting to everlasting, and man is created innocent, who then brought evil in to the world? Never mind, it obviously would be deflected any way. Just some food for thought BS.

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