This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged (alienated) from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Just in case you didn't know, Chuck, the Psalms are in the Bible.

“The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: They are like the deaf adder that stops up her ear, who listens not to the voice of charmers, charming ever so wisely. Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: Break out the great teeth of the young lions, O Jehovah.”

Hmmm, obviously one of your erroneous views about the Bible, BS. I thought you were big on discernment? You see BS there is a big difference in literal and figurative expressions.


Psalm 51:5 would teach that the child is a sinner from the moment of his conception, whereas Psalm 58:3 would suggest that the infant does not “go astray” until he is born – nine months later. Which is it – if the text is strictly literal?


Gosh, dude, I don't know, "I just thought I was being intellectual", wrong.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

Hmmm, obviously one of your erroneous views about the Bible, BS. I thought you were big on discernment? You see BS there is a big difference in literal and figurative expressions.

So now you're under the false ***umption that Psalm 58:3 is not in the Bible? Wow! And here I thought exalted human beings having sex with the rest of the gods and goddesses was strange. Mormonism and its followers just keep getting weirder and weirder all the time.

Psalm 51:5 would teach that the child is a sinner from the moment of his conception, whereas Psalm 58:3 would suggest that the infant does not “go astray” until he is born – nine months later. Which is it – if the text is strictly literal?

Oh Chuck, you're not that naive, are you? The first reference speaks to everyone's sin nature, while the latter demonstrates just how long it takes after arriving in the world for the sinner to start acting upon his/her sin nature. Kind of puts a cramp in the silly notion that Mormons have that a person doesn't sin until he/she is eight years-old, doesn't it Chuck?

Gosh, dude, I don't know, "I just thought I was being intellectual", wrong.

Oh, I agree, Chuck, you probably thought you were being intellectual, until the Word of God exposed your silliness once again as being in error.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

Thanks BS, I agree sin was not created, God did not make Satan evil, and evil has always existed or otherwise someone must have created it.

Sorry, but you still don't get it. Sin is not a creation at all. Sin is breaking of God's commandment. Big difference.

Very astute my Calvin friend. So since God is from everlasting to everlasting, and man is created innocent, who then brought evil in to the world?

What do you mean that God is from everlasting to everlasting, when that is something that ever Joseph Smith didn't believe? He said God became God. So, how can God be both from everlasting to everlasting and becoming at the same time?

As for your silly question, Satan was the first to rebel against God, and then showed up in the Garden and tempted with success both Adam and Eve to follow suit. Don't you ever read your Bible, Chuck?

Never mind, it obviously would be deflected any way. Just some food for thought BS.

Better find a better grocery store to shop at. What you've been consuming has left you theologically anemic.

[Richard]

Sorry, but you still don't get it. Sin is not a creation at all. Sin is breaking of God's commandment. Big difference.

REALLY, so it was man who invented sin? LOL, Does that mean that man is not predestined or preordained and has choice and was not chosen by God to be Saved?? after all if he can choose to break God's commandments he surely can choose too not accept Christ. But how do you handle the following? Westminster Confession of Faith, God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to p***.

Calvinism:
Original sin we mean the evil quality which characterizes man's natural disposition and will. We call this sin of nature original, because each fallen man is born with it.

Hmm, so now we see that you're saying sin is breaking of Gods commandments but your "Five Points of Calvinism" says each man is born with it! So which one is it BS?

What do you mean that God is from everlasting to everlasting, when that is something that ever Joseph Smith didn't believe? He said God became God. So, how can God be both from everlasting to everlasting and becoming at the same time?

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that "from eternity to eternity means from the spirit existence through the probation which we are in, and then back again to the eternal existence which will follow. Surely this is everlasting, for when we receive the resurrection, we will never die. We all existed in the first eternity. I think I can say of myself and others, we are from eternity; and we will be to eternity everlasting, if we receive the exaltation."

As for your silly question, Satan was the first to rebel against God, and then showed up in the Garden and tempted with success both Adam and Eve to follow suit. Don't you ever read your Bible, Chuck?

Did I say that Satan was the first to rebel, I guess you don't really know our doctrine that well BS.
For Satan said to God, "I'm only doing what has been done in other worlds"

Better find a better grocery store to shop at. What you've been consuming has left you theologically anemic.

Brian is back, thanks good buddy, we missed you.

[Richard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Hmmm, obviously one of your erroneous views about the Bible, BS. I thought you were big on discernment? You see BS there is a big difference in literal and figurative expressions.

So now you're under the false ***umption that Psalm 58:3 is not in the Bible? Wow! And here I thought exalted human beings having sex with the rest of the gods and goddesses was strange. Mormonism and its followers just keep getting weirder and weirder all the time.

Excuse me, but I'm having my usual difficulty in grasping the above hyperbole.

[QUOTE]

Quote:
Psalm 51:5 would teach that the child is a sinner from the moment of his conception, whereas Psalm 58:3 would suggest that the infant does not “go astray” until he is born – nine months later. Which is it – if the text is strictly literal?

Oh Chuck, you're not that naive, are you? The first reference speaks to everyone's sin nature, while the latter demonstrates just how long it takes after arriving in the world for the sinner to start acting upon his/her sin nature. Kind of puts a cramp in the silly notion that Mormons have that a person doesn't sin until he/she is eight years-old, doesn't it Chuck?

Really, Genesis 8:21: "I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth." I don't see infant here.
8 sounds like a good age to begin his accountability.

Calvinism:
Limited atonement
Christ did not die for all men but only those on the "saved list"

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

Adam and Eve did not comprehend just yet what the consequences were by being disobedient. They understood that they could make a choice, just like any infant eventually learns. The result of using our agency is the consequences of our choices; good choices produce good consequences, bad consequences produce wrong choices. Adam and Eve understood they faced two conflicting set of instructions-to avoid the fruit of the tree and to go forth and multiply.

Richard, God gave Adam the command to be fruitful and multiply before he and Eve partook of the fruit. Transgressions against God is always wrong. . Both transgressions and sins are violations against God's law. What the lds have done is redefine transgression and say it isn't a sin even if its committed against God. . You can transgress against me and its not a sin against God. But if you transgress against a command of God it is sin and has consequences and God punished Adam and Eve by throwing them out of Eden where they began to die that very day, with sickness, age and death. To rebel against God is sin.

Adam and Eve did not receive 2 sets of conflicting instructions. God never contradicts Himself, nor does he tempt anyone. Adam received the command to be fruitful and multiply and also to not partake of that particular tree. One did not have anything to do with the other.

You have it backwards when you say disobeying God was a good thing; a blessing. That is satan's lie. Adam and Eve listened to that lie and they paid the ultimate price, banishment from paradise and from immortality to mortality.

You also have a warped view of God if you believe He deliberately created a beautiful world and put two perfect people on it, for the sole purpose of wanting man to transgress against Him. For sin to taint the world and for God to have to come in the flesh and suffer a horrible and brutal degradation of Crucifixion. You do not understand the Holy One True God that Christianity has believed in for over 2,000 years and the God of the Jews. Your god was a man like you so you view him as no different than you except he's exalted. The problem is you have all these doctrines of men that you need to support, so you read the Bible and import your beliefs into the p***ages rather than letting God speak for himself. You need the Fall to be a good thing in order to support some of your unscriptual beliefs.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

REALLY, so it was man who invented sin? LOL, Does that mean that man is not predestined or preordained and has choice and was not chosen by God to be Saved?? after all if he can choose to break God's commandments he surely can choose too not accept Christ. But how do you handle the following? Westminster Confession of Faith, God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to p***.

Calvinism:
Original sin we mean the evil quality which characterizes man's natural disposition and will. We call this sin of nature original, because each fallen man is born with it.

Hmm, so now we see that you're saying sin is breaking of Gods commandments but your "Five Points of Calvinism" says each man is born with it! So which one is it BS?

Of course man did not invent sin. God is a Holy God. His very nature does not allow Him to look the other way when someone transgresses against Him. When we break one of His commands. God's nature requires that He deal with this sinful act. The Bible says we are all born with a sin nature, the capacity to sin. None of us can ever escape it. David was fully aware of this and he said in sin did his mother conceive him. This does not mean his mother sinned. She was the Lord's handmaid and conceived David in chaste wedlock. What David was saying is that we all have this sin nature brought on by Adam's disobeying God and violating His command. No one needs to teach a young child to lie or steal. Its in his nature. Why else does everyone sin and continue to do so? The apostle Paul said he had no confidence in his flesh.The very thing he should be doing, he wasn't. The thing he should not do, was the thing he was doing. He saw the hopelessness of trying to be perfect and sinless. But he also saw the wonderful grace of God and that Christ's blood cleanses us of all sin. (I John 1:7)

The doctrine of original sin was not invented by Calvin, but is traced to the Apostle Paul's description of human sinfulness, especially in the Epistle to the Romans, as a universal condition inherited from Adam.

If man isn't born with a sin nature, then why can't we be free of sins?

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

[COLOR="Green"][B][I]REALLY, so it was man who invented sin?

Sin is not an invention. Are you not paying attention yet, Chuck?

Hmm, so now we see that you're saying sin is breaking of Gods commandments but your "Five Points of Calvinism" says each man is born with it! So which one is it BS?

Where was it written that I'm Calvin?

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that "from eternity to eternity means from the spirit existence through the probation which we are in, and then back again to the eternal existence which will follow. Surely this is everlasting, for when we receive the resurrection, we will never die. We all existed in the first eternity. I think I can say of myself and others, we are from eternity; and we will be to eternity everlasting, if we receive the exaltation."

And how does this answer the questions you were asked, namely, What do you mean that God is from everlasting to everlasting, when that is something that ever Joseph Smith didn't believe? He said God became God. So, how can God be both from everlasting to everlasting and becoming at the same time? Are you admitting to some kind of monistic cosmology?

Did I say that Satan was the first to rebel, I guess you don't really know our doctrine that well BS.

You asked a question, and was given a biblical answer, because it is quite obvious that "really don't know [the Bible] that well," Chuck.

For Satan said to God, "I'm only doing what has been done in other worlds"

CFR

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

Excuse me, but I'm having my usual difficulty in grasping the above hyperbole.

Now what you're writing is so hyperbolic that even you can't grasped it? In fact, you're confused by it? Yet, you think you've got an answer to the mountainous number of criticisms against Mormonism which clearly show it to be a false religion?

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Richard

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that "from eternity to eternity means from the spirit existence through the probation which we are in, and then back again to the eternal existence which will follow. Surely this is everlasting, for when we receive the resurrection, we will never die. We all existed in the first eternity. I think I can say of myself and others, we are from eternity; and we will be to eternity everlasting, if we receive the exaltation."


:

Is Joseph fielding Smith God? Let God speak for Himself. You have absolutely no support from God's Word. Just the ramblings of men. Mormonism is founded upon the doctrines of man.

You are out of bounds here.

God Himself said we had a beginning. Read Genesis again..."In the beginning". You can't go further back than that. If you want to try, then please explain how the first man got his body>

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Richard, God gave Adam the command to be fruitful and multiply before he and Eve partook of the fruit. Transgressions against God is always wrong. . Both transgressions and sins are violations against God's law. What the lds have done is redefine transgression and say it isn't a sin even if its committed against God. . You can transgress against me and its not a sin against God. But if you transgress against a command of God it is sin and has consequences and God punished Adam and Eve by throwing them out of Eden where they began to die that very day, with sickness, age and death. To rebel against God is sin.

Adam and Eve did not receive 2 sets of conflicting instructions. God never contradicts Himself, nor does he tempt anyone. Adam received the command to be fruitful and multiply and also to not partake of that particular tree. One did not have anything to do with the other.

You have it backwards when you say disobeying God was a good thing; a blessing. That is satan's lie. Adam and Eve listened to that lie and they paid the ultimate price, banishment from paradise and from immortality to mortality.

You also have a warped view of God if you believe He deliberately created a beautiful world and put two perfect people on it, for the sole purpose of wanting man to transgress against Him. For sin to taint the world and for God to have to come in the flesh and suffer a horrible and brutal degradation of Crucifixion. You do not understand the Holy One True God that Christianity has believed in for over 2,000 years and the God of the Jews. Your god was a man like you so you view him as no different than you except he's exalted. The problem is you have all these doctrines of men that you need to support, so you read the Bible and import your beliefs into the p***ages rather than letting God speak for himself. You need the Fall to be a good thing in order to support some of your unscriptual beliefs.

He did not create a world of paradise, he created a GARDEN wherein he placed ADAM and EVE. The Scriptures are silent on the what, how and why of ADAM and EVE if they had remained there. WE know that they would have stayed innocent, not knowing good and evil.

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

So, tell me, what do the Scriptures tell us, would Adam and Eve remain in the GARDEN forever, would they be innocent forever, would then never have known evil or good? Tell me what you know??? Please.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

He did not create a world of paradise, he created a GARDEN wherein he placed ADAM and EVE. The Scriptures are silent on the what, how and why of ADAM and EVE if they had remained there. WE know that they would have stayed innocent, not knowing good and evil.

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

So, tell me, what do the Scriptures tell us, would Adam and Eve remain in the GARDEN forever, would they be innocent forever, would then never have known evil or good? Tell me what you know??? Please.

"Paradise" (Hebrew פרדס PaRDeS) used as a synonym for the Garden of Eden.

If the Scriptures are silent about something, than so too should we be and not try and make a doctrine based on presuppositions and speculations.

[Richard]

Sin is not an invention. Are you not paying attention yet, Chuck?

Of course it's not as I so stated. But you fail to answer how sin came about.
If man was created by God, yes I believe you teach this.
Did God also create sin?
If man never existed and there is only God, how then did evil ever become part of mans nature? Please enlighten us with your doctrine which so far
has been limited to something about ---- quote TheSword99
"The Bible says we are all born with a sin nature, the capacity to sin. None of us can ever escape it."

Confused, how can you teach something from nothing, ex nihilo, and yet state man was born with a sin nature, where did that sin nature originate? Out of nothing? And if so, did God understand prior to his creation anything about Sin? Please enlighten us with your doctrine some more.

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Bingo, knowing good and evil, so again good buddy, where did sin come from? seems to say in the scriptures that the God already knew all about sin.

Where was it written that I'm Calvin?

Maybe because you frequent the Calvin Forum, CARM. BS.

And how does this answer the questions you were asked, namely, What do you mean that God is from everlasting to everlasting, when that is something that ever Joseph Smith didn't believe? He said God became God. So, how can God be both from everlasting to everlasting and becoming at the same time? Are you admitting to some kind of monistic cosmology?

READ my reply again. "from eternity to eternity means from the spirit existence through the probation which we are in, and then back again to the eternal existence which will follow. Surely this is everlasting, for when we receive the resurrection, we will never die. We all existed in the first eternity. I think I can say of myself and others, we are from eternity; and we will be to eternity everlasting, if we receive the exaltation."

You asked a question, and was given a biblical answer, because it is quite obvious that "really don't know [the Bible] that well," Chuck.
CFR

What biblical answer? "As for your silly question, Satan was the first to rebel against God, and then showed up in the Garden and tempted with success both Adam and Eve to follow suit. Don't you ever read your Bible, Chuck?"

That was Biblical, please educate us with that scripture or chapter, take your pick, that shows Satan was the first to ever rebel? Oh, yea, now you will have to include ex nihilo which isn't biblical.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

He did not create a world of paradise, he created a GARDEN wherein he placed ADAM and EVE.

That is, unless one happens to be Brigham Young, and then God and Adam are the same person. But, I digress. And while you may want to mince words, clearly the Garden of Eden was a paradise, as even your own writers and leaders have alluded to it as.

Men grow strong and powerful as they learn to do things for themselves. The administration at Washington seemed cold and unsympathetic in its answers to our appeal for help when it said, "Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you." Yet that is similar to the at***ude of the Creator, out on the border of time, when he drove man from the Garden of Eden and set him to work in the spirit of self reliance and conquest. The fiat of Eden, "Go forth and multiply and replenish the earth, conquer it, and subdue it and have dominion," as well as the sentence which soon followed it, viz: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread," seemed very severe and harsh. Time and accomplishment have taught men that those were kind words, in the light of the blessings which came from the results of their being chosen by the Deity for the training of the human race in the beginning. And that there might be no retreat back into Eden's Elysian bowers, a Cherubim, with flaming sword, was placed at the Gates of Paradise. So, God apparently intended that we should be outside of Paradise.—Elder Nephi L. Morris

I sometimes think of this world and compare it with what it was before the curse of the Almighty came upon it in the Garden of Eden, where everything was beautiful and everything was peace and tranquility, the lion and the lamb lying down together, and all was harmony. It must have been beautiful indeed. It is referred to in the scripture as "the garden of the Lord." Isaiah tells us: "For the Lord shall comfort Zion; he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody." (Isaiah 51:3.) Surely then the Garden of Eden must have been beautiful, a little heaven on earth. It was Paradise.—Elder Rulon S. Wells

Brother George A. Smith has said, very truly, that we are not told in the revelations that we shall not wear good and handsome clothes; no, we are not; we are authorized to make them as beautiful as we please, and also to make the earth as beautiful as the Garden of Eden, to gather around us every variety of the comforts of life, to endeavor to produce joy, peace, life and health, and to strive to make everything around us, if possible, as glorious as the paradise of our first parents.—Brigham Young

It is proposed that the `high way cast up' between the two cities of our God, be decorated with fruit and shade trees between the cities and villages, (which are only eighty furlongs apart,) for the accommodation of `wayfaring men of Israel.' Gabriel has brought from Paradise, some seeds of fruit and grain, which were originally in the Garden of Eden, and will greatly add to the comfort and convenience of man."—Parley P. Pratt

The Scriptures are silent on the what, how and why of ADAM and EVE if they had remained there. WE know that they would have stayed innocent, not knowing good and evil.

We also know that they would have obeyed God, had children, and carried out the dominion that God gave them in when he instructed them to "Be fruitful and multiply…"

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Way to quote Satan as your authority, Chuck.

So, tell me, what do the Scriptures tell us, would Adam and Eve remain in the GARDEN forever, would they be innocent forever, would then never have known evil or good? Tell me what you know??? Please.

What is your point? That good and evil are locked in an eternally never ending dualistic battle? That evil and sin are necessary? That Adam and Eve could only obey God by first disobeying him? Just what serpentine bit of wisdom are you going to thrust upon us this time, Chuck, which stems from those first those first notorious words that extended from his lips when he asked "Has God said?"

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

Of course it's not as I so stated. But you fail to answer how sin came about.
If man was created by God, yes I believe you teach this.
Did God also create sin?
If man never existed and there is only God, how then did evil ever become part of mans nature? Please enlighten us with your doctrine which so far
has been limited to something about ---- quote TheSword99
"The Bible says we are all born with a sin nature, the capacity to sin. None of us can ever escape it."

Confused, how can you teach something from nothing, ex nihilo, and yet state man was born with a sin nature, where did that sin nature originate? Out of nothing? And if so, did God understand prior to his creation anything about Sin? Please enlighten us with your doctrine some more.





Maybe because you frequent the Calvin Forum, CARM. BS.





READ my reply again. "from eternity to eternity means from the spirit existence through the probation which we are in, and then back again to the eternal existence which will follow. Surely this is everlasting, for when we receive the resurrection, we will never die. We all existed in the first eternity. I think I can say of myself and others, we are from eternity; and we will be to eternity everlasting, if we receive the exaltation."




What biblical answer? "As for your silly question, Satan was the first to rebel against God, and then showed up in the Garden and tempted with success both Adam and Eve to follow suit. Don't you ever read your Bible, Chuck?"

That was Biblical, please educate us with that scripture or chapter, take your pick, that shows Satan was the first to ever rebel? Oh, yea, now you will have to include ex nihilo which isn't biblical.

God told you how sin came about. Through the disobedience of Adam and Eve. But the lds refuses to believe this because it would **** their other doctrines to smithereens.

Frequenting the CARMS forum does not mean one subscribes to Calvinism. I see quite a few mormons there.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

That is, unless one happens to be Brigham Young, and then God and Adam are the same person. But, I digress. And while you may want to mince words, clearly the Garden of Eden was a paradise, as even your own writers and leaders have alluded to it as.

Men grow strong and powerful as they learn to do things for themselves. The administration at Washington seemed cold and unsympathetic in its answers to our appeal for help when it said, "Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you." Yet that is similar to the at***ude of the Creator, out on the border of time, when he drove man from the Garden of Eden and set him to work in the spirit of self reliance and conquest. The fiat of Eden, "Go forth and multiply and replenish the earth, conquer it, and subdue it and have dominion," as well as the sentence which soon followed it, viz: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread," seemed very severe and harsh. Time and accomplishment have taught men that those were kind words, in the light of the blessings which came from the results of their being chosen by the Deity for the training of the human race in the beginning. And that there might be no retreat back into Eden's Elysian bowers, a Cherubim, with flaming sword, was placed at the Gates of Paradise. So, God apparently intended that we should be outside of Paradise.—Elder Nephi L. Morris

I sometimes think of this world and compare it with what it was before the curse of the Almighty came upon it in the Garden of Eden, where everything was beautiful and everything was peace and tranquility, the lion and the lamb lying down together, and all was harmony. It must have been beautiful indeed. It is referred to in the scripture as "the garden of the Lord." Isaiah tells us: "For the Lord shall comfort Zion; he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody." (Isaiah 51:3.) Surely then the Garden of Eden must have been beautiful, a little heaven on earth. It was Paradise.—Elder Rulon S. Wells

Brother George A. Smith has said, very truly, that we are not told in the revelations that we shall not wear good and handsome clothes; no, we are not; we are authorized to make them as beautiful as we please, and also to make the earth as beautiful as the Garden of Eden, to gather around us every variety of the comforts of life, to endeavor to produce joy, peace, life and health, and to strive to make everything around us, if possible, as glorious as the paradise of our first parents.—Brigham Young

It is proposed that the `high way cast up' between the two cities of our God, be decorated with fruit and shade trees between the cities and villages, (which are only eighty furlongs apart,) for the accommodation of `wayfaring men of Israel.' Gabriel has brought from Paradise, some seeds of fruit and grain, which were originally in the Garden of Eden, and will greatly add to the comfort and convenience of man."—Parley P. Pratt

We also know that they would have obeyed God, had children, and carried out the dominion that God gave them in when he instructed them to "Be fruitful and multiply…"



Way to quote Satan as your authority, Chuck.



What is your point? That good and evil are locked in an eternally never ending dualistic battle? That evil and sin are necessary? That Adam and Eve could only obey God by first disobeying him? Just what serpentine bit of wisdom are you going to thrust upon us this time, Chuck, which stems from those first those first notorious words that extended from his lips when he asked "Has God said?"

AMEN! Excellent post.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Is Joseph fielding Smith God? Let God speak for Himself. You have absolutely no support from God's Word. Just the ramblings of men. Mormonism is founded upon the doctrines of man.

You are out of bounds here.

God Himself said we had a beginning. Read Genesis again..."In the beginning". You can't go further back than that. If you want to try, then please explain how the first man got his body>

Yes, lets let God speak for himself shall we. So I guess then that the Christian Creeds need to be cast out, for man is telling us who God is.

Man tells us that the creation took six days, man is telling us that God creates something out of nothing, man is telling us that God does not reveal himself anymore, hence only the Bible. Really? You believe this?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Now what you're writing is so hyperbolic that even you can't grasped it? In fact, you're confused by it? Yet, you think you've got an answer to the mountainous number of criticisms against Mormonism which clearly show it to be a false religion?

Nice deflection, answers the question by making a blanket statement, really good point, did your talking points book run out of creditable replies.
Just wondering?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

"Paradise" (Hebrew פרדס PaRDeS) used as a synonym for the Garden of Eden.

If the Scriptures are silent about something, than so too should we be and not try and make a doctrine based on presuppositions and speculations.

I can buy that, so quit speculating. WE have additional scripture, our light and knowledge is continuing to reveal all of Gods Plan of Salvation.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

AMEN! Excellent post.

Thank you TS99. Praise be to the Lord.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

Nice deflection, answers the question by making a blanket statement, really good point, did your talking points book run out of creditable replies.
Just wondering?

Just responding to your comments. So, there was no deflection. Now, since you've avoided answering the questions I asked of you, who's the one doing the deflecting?

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

Yes, lets let God speak for himself shall we. So I guess then that the Christian Creeds need to be cast out, for man is telling us who God is.

Man tells us that the creation took six days, man is telling us that God creates something out of nothing, man is telling us that God does not reveal himself anymore, hence only the Bible. Really? You believe this?

Christ's church recognizes the ancient creeds as accurate expressions of Biblical teaching. They came straight from God's Word. The lds on the other hand has 1,000's of writings over 100 years that lack support from the Holy Scriptures.

Therein lies the difference.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

I can buy that, so quit speculating. WE have additional scripture, our light and knowledge is continuing to reveal all of Gods Plan of Salvation.

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

I can buy that, so quit speculating. WE have additional scripture, our light and knowledge is continuing to reveal all of Gods Plan of Salvation.

That's it in a nutshell. You have additional, unscriptual, unbiblical teachings which you can't prove inspiration. You claim that the lds church is a "restoration" of original Christianity, yet what your church has actually done is added and subs***uted, forging ahead unchecked. With leaders who have sometimes contradicted each other or even had their teaching tossed out. But God's Word endures forever!

The JWs have additional scriptures. They too, like Joseph Smith, rewrote God's word, they too change John 1 from Jesus being GOD, to being a god. They too claim to receive new "Light" (revelations)

But God showed us in His Word that we are to be like the noble Bereans in the Book of Acts who searched the Scriptures daily for truth, not to men.

The Apostle Paul said that he had fully preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Himself told us what we must do to be saved. There is no need for additional revelation concerning God's plan of salvation. It has never changed. Salvation is through Christ alone; not through church and church rules and rituals.

[Richard]

That is, unless one happens to be Brigham Young, and then God and Adam are the same person. But, I digress. And while you may want to mince words, clearly the Garden of Eden was a paradise, as even your own writers and leaders have alluded to it as.

Even though I don't teach it, I kind of like the Adam God THEORY, still waiting to find out what BY would say in full context.

We also know that they would have obeyed God, had children, and carried out the dominion that God gave them in when he instructed them to "Be fruitful and multiply…"

Really, then why was it that after she and Adam ate the fruit the following was stated.

“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Way to quote Satan as your authority, Chuck.

Thank you, it goes along with all the other versus in the Bible that include preexistence. Something you guys are still in denial about.

What is your point? That good and evil are locked in an eternally never ending dualistic battle? That evil and sin are necessary? That Adam and Eve could only obey God by first disobeying him? Just what serpentine bit of wisdom are you going to thrust upon us this time, Chuck, which stems from those first those first notorious words that extended from his lips when he asked "Has God said?"

Oh maybe something you still ignore in the Scriptures: “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

Oh my, there we have it, Adam now understood good and evil just like God the Father. So good buddy, where did evil come from?? please try to give a meaningful answer and not to the typical deflect.