This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

There you go, man not allowing God to continue to reveal Himself, we have a bible, a bible and need no more.

II Nephi 29:6 states “Thou fool, that shall say a Bible, we have got a Bible and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?” Can you note the FOOLS are the only ones who trust in the Bible? Read verse 10. Here, the Book of Mormon declares the need for more revelation and makes way for its own existence!

A point of interest - turn to I Nephi 13:26: “a great and abominable church - has taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.”

[Richard]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

That's it in a nutshell. You have additional, unscriptual, unbiblical teachings which you can't prove inspiration. You claim that the lds church is a "restoration" of original Christianity, yet what your church has actually done is added and subs***uted, forging ahead unchecked. With leaders who have sometimes contradicted each other or even had their teaching tossed out. But God's Word endures forever!

Hmmm, and how do you come to believe that the Bible is inspired? With men who wrote Creeds which added and subs***uted unchecked, and leaders who argued and contradicted each other and even has some killed for their beliefs, yes the Christian have a very unique history and interesting evolution.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

Even though I don't teach it, I kind of like the Adam God THEORY, still waiting to find out what BY would say in full context.



Really, then why was it that after she and Adam ate the fruit the following was stated.

“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.




Thank you, it goes along with all the other versus in the Bible that include preexistence. Something you guys are still in denial about.


Oh maybe something you still ignore in the Scriptures: “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

Oh my, there we have it, Adam now understood good and evil just like God the Father. So good buddy, where did evil come from?? please try to give a meaningful answer and not to the typical deflect.

So you see Adam as the redemptive hero because he transgressed God's command?

“I tell you, when you see your Father in heaven, you will see Adam . . .” (M****cript Addresses of B.Y., Oct. 8, 1854)

Can Adam be the God of Scripture?...

“When our Father Adam came into the Garden of Eden . . . He is Michael, the archangel, the Ancient Of Days. . . he is our Father and our God, and the Only God with whom we have to do” (Gen. Conf., Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51, 1854).

Can Michael be Adam who is the God of Scripture? If Adam is an angel (Michael) and the Father of Jesus then Jesus is the offspring of an angel which would make him an angel...

McConkie wrote in "Mormon Doctrine" that Adam in his proper place was the preexistence Michael..

Is Noah the arch angel Gabriel ?

BTW, Brigham Young did not see the Adam-God teaching as a "theory." He taught it as doctrine. Young said he never sent out a sermon to the children of men that they could not call scripture. Most lds today totally reject this teaching.

[TheSword99]

[QUOTE=Richard;72565]

Hmmm, and how do you come to believe that the Bible is inspired? With men who wrote Creeds which added and subs***uted unchecked, and leaders who argued and contradicted each other and even has some killed for their beliefs, yes the Christian have a very unique history and interesting evolution.

The creeds neither adds nor subs***utes what God has revealed in His Word.

You are mimicking the falsity of Joseph Smith when he said all christian churches, creeds and leaders are corrupt. We know this to be a lie because Smith never saw God. GOD SAID that no man can see His face and Live. How conveniently Smith changes the Bible verse to: No one can see my face and live except him that believes. This is tampering with the Holy Word of God and it will not go unpunished. God will deal with this perversion of His Word.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

There you go, man not allowing God to continue to reveal Himself, we have a bible, a bible and need no more.

You didn't answer the questions. Why? Too difficult? If not, here they are again.

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

[B2M5L2]

[QUOTE=Richard;72565]

Hmmm, and how do you come to believe that the Bible is inspired?

Uh, duh, maybe because it, first of all, claims to be?

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his [Paul's] letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

With men who wrote Creeds which added and subs***uted unchecked, and leaders who argued and contradicted each other and even has some killed for their beliefs, yes the Christian have a very unique history and interesting evolution.

What exactly is in the Creeds that are not supported by the Bible? For example, what is biblical erroneous about the following creed?

I believe in one God the Father Almighty; Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds [God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance [essence] with the Father; by whom all things were made; who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And [I believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And [I believe] one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge on Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Or are you simply talking through your seer stone embossed hat again?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

You didn't answer the questions. Why? Too difficult? If not, here they are again.

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

Thanks for the opportunity to share with our friends and visitors.

Isaiah 29:4
And thou shalt be brought down, [and] shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Perceiving how this would take place, Nephi1, the first writer in the Book of Mormon, wrote about 570 B.C. to unborn generations: "My beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust" (2 Ne. 33:13). Similarly, the last writer in the Book of Mormon, Moroni2, wrote about A.D. 400: "I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words" (Morm. 9:30; cf. Moro. 10:27). As he was about to bury the records, he wrote: "No one need say [the records] shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it" (Morm. 8:26; cf. TPJS, p. 98).


TWO RECORDS. Ezekiel also prophesied concerning the two records—that of Joseph or Ephraim (i.e., the Book of Mormon) and that of Judah (i.e., the Bible)—that would be joined in the last days as an instrument provided by the Lord to gather his people back to himself (Ezek. 37:15-22; cf. 2 Ne. 3:11-12; see Ezekiel, Prophecies of; Israel: Gathering of Israel).


Again, thanks for the great opportunity to teach the truth.

[Richard]

[

QUOTE=TheSword99;72567]

Originally Posted by Richard

The creeds neither adds nor subs***utes what God has revealed in His Word.

Really? amazing, and you really believe this? So why the need for clarification?

You are mimicking the falsity of Joseph Smith when he said all christian churches, creeds and leaders are corrupt. We know this to be a lie because Smith never saw God. GOD SAID that no man can see His face and Live. How conveniently Smith changes the Bible verse to: No one can see my face and live except him that believes. This is tampering with the Holy Word of God and it will not go unpunished. God will deal with this perversion of His Word.

Ok, beyond this perversion you dwell on, what proof can you provide that the BOM is fiction, did you ever read it from first verse to last verse? We know the Bible is not inerrant.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

[

Ok, beyond this perversion you dwell on, what proof can you provide that the BOM is fiction, did you ever read it from first verse to last verse? We know the Bible is not inerrant.

Ok so please tell me what are the errors/contradictions in the Bible? Many have claimed its corrupted, such as Muslims for one, but fall flat on their face when it comes time to prove it.

Is the JST inerrant? Why don't you use it exclusively, or even in church on sunday?

If the BoM is supposed to be the most correct book of any on earth, then why does Mormonism disagree with it concerning doctrines?

The BoM is clearly a 19th century work.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

Thanks for the opportunity to share with our friends and visitors.

You still haven't answered the questions. So, why not share an answer with "our friends and visitors" as to What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

Because the longer you keep delaying or obfuscating the questions, the more you look to "our friends and visitors" like someone who doesn't want to be friendly and honest.

Btw, just to let you know, spam is poor subs***ute for providing a well thought-out response. And worse yet, when you claim credit for it, it really makes you look deceitful, especially when you arrogantly think you're teaching it as well.

[Richard]

[QUOTE=B2M5L2;72571]

Originally Posted by Richard

Uh, duh, maybe because it, first of all, claims to be?

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his [Paul's] letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Interesting you never mention personal revelation and the witness of the HG.
So again, how do you know it's inspired?

What exactly is in the Creeds that are not supported by the Bible? For example, what is biblical erroneous about the following creed?

Well it seems even the Christians have their doubts, there are the Trinity believers and then the Oneness Doctrine, and then the Calvinist, none seem to agree on much.

I believe in one God the Father Almighty; Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds [God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance [essence] with the Father; by whom all things were made; who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And [I believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And [I believe] one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge on Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Or are you simply talking through your seer stone embossed hat again?

Very good, and can you explain that to a fifth grader let alone many of your own Christian members who have no clue to it's meaning or are able to understand this doctrine.

April 10, 2009
A new nationwide survey of adults’ spiritual beliefs, conducted by The Barna Group, suggests that Americans who consider themselves to be Christian have a diverse set of beliefs – but many of those beliefs are contradictory or, at least, inconsistent.
The survey explored beliefs about spiritual beings, the influence of faith on their life, views of the Bible, and reactions to faiths other than their own.

Hmmm, where is the unity of faith talked about in the scriptures.

The Barna survey asked questions about God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Satan, and demons.

All 1,871 self-described Christians were asked about their perception of God. In total, three-quarters (78%) said he is the “all-powerful, all-knowing Creator of the universe who rules the world today.” The remaining one-quarter chose other descriptions of God – depictions that are not consistent with biblical teaching (e.g., everyone is god, god refers to the realization of human potential, etc.).

[Richard]

[QUOTE=B2M5L2;72578]You still haven't answered the questions. So, why not share an answer with "our friends and visitors" as to What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

Because the longer you keep delaying or obfuscating the questions, the more you look to "our friends and visitors" like someone who doesn't want to be friendly and honest.

Isaiah 29:4
And thou shalt be brought down, [and] shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.





Btw, just to let you know, spam is poor subs***ute for providing a well thought-out response. And worse yet, when you claim credit for it, it really makes you look deceitful, especially when you arrogantly think you're teaching it as well.

I'm not teaching at all, just sharing as I stated, and then followed up with having taught truth by providing information one can research for themselves.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Ok so please tell me what are the errors/contradictions in the Bible? Many have claimed its corrupted, such as Muslims for one, but fall flat on their face when it comes time to prove it.

Is the JST inerrant? Why don't you use it exclusively, or even in church on sunday?

If the BoM is supposed to be the most correct book of any on earth, then why does Mormonism disagree with it concerning doctrines?

The BoM is clearly a 19th century work.

We do teach from the JST, when we want to cross reference the errors in interpretation or missing scripture.

President Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., wrote:
"We are all aware that there are errors in the Bible due to faulty translations and ignorance on the part of the translators, but the hand of the Lord has been over this volume of Scripture nevertheless, and it is remarkable that it has come down to us in the excellent condition in which we find it." (Doctrines of Salvation, 3:191)
There is no question that some parts of the text have been corrupted. Of the thousands of early Greek and Hebrews m****cripts and fragments that scholars have to work with, there are many small and some serious differences that make it impossible to propose one single, standard text that one might hope to be free from errors. In fact, Leon Vaganay and Christian-Bernard Amphoux, two non-LDS writers, say that there are over 5,000 Greek m****cripts or fragments to work with, containing roughly 250,000 variants among them. They say that "it would be difficult to find a sentence, even part of a sentence, for which the rendering is consistent in every single m****cript. That certainly gives plenty of food for thought." (Leon Vaganay and Christian-Bernard Amphoux, Initiation a la critique textuelle du Nouveau Testament [An Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism], translated by J. Heimerdinger, New York: Cambridge University Press, 1991, p.2, as cited by Kerry A. Shirts, Journal of Mormon Apologetics, Vol. 1, 1999, p. 94.)

[B2M5L2]

[QUOTE=Richard;72581]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

You still haven't answered the questions. So, why not share an answer with "our friends and visitors" as to What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

Because the longer you keep delaying or obfuscating the questions, the more you look to "our friends and visitors" like someone who doesn't want to be friendly and honest.

Isaiah 29:4
And thou shalt be brought down, [and] shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.





Btw, just to let you know, spam is poor subs***ute for providing a well thought-out response. And worse yet, when you claim credit for it, it really makes you look deceitful, especially when you arrogantly think you're teaching it as well.

You still haven't answered the questions, Chuck. What seems to be the problem?

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

I'm not teaching at all, just sharing as I stated, and then followed up with having taught truth by providing information one can research for themselves.

So, now you're not teaching at all, even though previously you said you were. Strange mental world you live in, Chuck? Don't you ever tire of contradicting yourself?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

So you see Adam as the redemptive hero because he transgressed God's command?

“I tell you, when you see your Father in heaven, you will see Adam . . .” (M****cript Addresses of B.Y., Oct. 8, 1854)

Can Adam be the God of Scripture?...

“When our Father Adam came into the Garden of Eden . . . He is Michael, the archangel, the Ancient Of Days. . . he is our Father and our God, and the Only God with whom we have to do” (Gen. Conf., Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51, 1854).

Can Michael be Adam who is the God of Scripture? If Adam is an angel (Michael) and the Father of Jesus then Jesus is the offspring of an angel which would make him an angel...

McConkie wrote in "Mormon Doctrine" that Adam in his proper place was the preexistence Michael..

Is Noah the arch angel Gabriel ?

BTW, Brigham Young did not see the Adam-God teaching as a "theory." He taught it as doctrine. Young said he never sent out a sermon to the children of men that they could not call scripture. Most lds today totally reject this teaching.

I said I like the THEORY and would look forward to the day when BY can give it to us in full context. So for now I have to consider it a unteachable theory.
But I can think outside the box and not get excommunicated. Again, I don't teach it in Church or parade it around as doctrine.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Just responding to your comments. So, there was no deflection. Now, since you've avoided answering the questions I asked of you, who's the one doing the deflecting?

As usual it's you BS. I have stated in the past, you make accusations and never provide the verification. So what is one to think other then you have lots of opinions and conclusions based on BS.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

We do teach from the JST, when we want to cross reference the errors in interpretation or missing scripture.

Why refer to the JST? Is it an early m****cript that textual critics like Bruce Metzger, Matthew Black, or Barbara Aland would refer to when comparing texts to grade their integrity? If not, then just what gives the JST textual credence over the thousands of m****cripts, from both the Hebrew and Greek, that anyone with the slightest amount textual critical savvy should pay attention to?

[Richard]

[QUOTE=B2M5L2;72584]

Originally Posted by Richard

You still haven't answered the questions, Chuck. What seems to be the problem?

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?



So, now you're not teaching at all, even though previously you said you were. Strange mental world you live in, Chuck? Don't you ever tire of contradicting yourself?

Who decided the Cannon of Scripture contain all of Gods words, or that some books may not actually be that inspired, hmmm, seems you put your faith in man and not personal revelation.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Why refer to the JST? Is it an early m****cript that textual critics like Bruce Metzger, Matthew Black, or Barbara Aland would refer to when comparing texts to grade their integrity? If not, then just what gives the JST textual credence over the thousands of m****cripts, from both the Hebrew and Greek, that anyone with the slightest amount textual critical savvy should pay attention to?

Hmm, how about being a Prophet of God and having the authority to speak in His name. Wherein you put your faith in man and his lame wisdom to talk for God. Seems you might think God is Dead, for man does not allow God to speak anymore. Just some food for thought, good buddy.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

As usual it's you BS. I have stated in the past, you make accusations and never provide the verification. So what is one to think other then you have lots of opinions and conclusions based on BS.

Have you answered these questions? You know, the ones I've now asked four times, and all you've done is avoid them?

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

Since obviously you haven't, then why make silly accusations that you should know are easily re****ed by simply referring to what you've avoided?

[B2M5L2]

[QUOTE=Richard;72588]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Who decided the Cannon of Scripture contain all of Gods words, or that some books may not actually be that inspired, hmmm, seems you put your faith in man and not personal revelation.

God decided. Now, one more time, What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

God told you how sin came about. Through the disobedience of Adam and Eve. But the lds refuses to believe this because it would **** their other doctrines to smithereens.

Frequenting the CARMS forum does not mean one subscribes to Calvinism. I see quite a few mormons there.

So how do you explain, "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


You say disobedience, God tells us Adam and Eve can now know like the Gods and understand what Good and Evil is. So, good and evil were here before the Creations, right or wrong, what do the scriptures say or are you want to twist them some more?

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Richard

Hmm, how about being a Prophet of God and having the authority to speak in His name.

Who would that be? Sure you jest if you mean Joe Smith, given that he never offered a prophecy that ever came to p*** and his theology was so abhorrent as to lead people into the idolatrous worship of a human being. So, just are you referring to?

Wherein you put your faith in man and his lame wisdom to talk for God.

What man would that be?

Seems you might think God is Dead, for man does not allow God to speak anymore.

Sorry, but the Holy Spirit is alive and well, and speaks quite clearly to those who haven't decided to ignore the very vehicle God has chosen to speak through, namely the Bible.

Just some food for thought, good buddy.

Again, you really should change grocers, Chuck, given the anemia of the thought put into your posts.

[TheSword99]

[QUOTE=Richard;72580]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Very good, and can you explain that to a fifth grader let alone many of your own Christian members who have no clue to it's meaning or are able to understand this doctrine.

April 10, 2009
A new nationwide survey of adults’ spiritual beliefs, conducted by The Barna Group, suggests that Americans who consider themselves to be Christian have a diverse set of beliefs – but many of those beliefs are contradictory or, at least, inconsistent.
The survey explored beliefs about spiritual beings, the influence of faith on their life, views of the Bible, and reactions to faiths other than their own.

Hmmm, where is the unity of faith talked about in the scriptures.

The Barna survey asked questions about God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Satan, and demons.

All 1,871 self-described Christians were asked about their perception of God. In total, three-quarters (78%) said he is the “all-powerful, all-knowing Creator of the universe who rules the world today.” The remaining one-quarter chose other descriptions of God – depictions that are not consistent with biblical teaching (e.g., everyone is god, god refers to the realization of human potential, etc.).

Anyone can label themselves Christian. Doesn't mean that they are truly born-again. Some people think if they go to church occasionally then that makes them a christian.

Then there's the pseudo christians and those that belong to a cult that claims to be christian but when you take a look at their beliefs/doctrines, its very clear that they teach a false gospel.

There is no unity among the mormons . They have splintered into more than 100 different groups. All claiming Joseph Smith as their founder and professing faith in the BoM. if the BoM is truly the most correct book, then why don't all these splinter groups agree?

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

We do teach from the JST, when we want to cross reference the errors in interpretation or missing scripture.

Its interesting but the apostle John recognized the deity of Jesus Christ. That he was with God and was God. His gospel testifies of this true deity. Yet, Joseph Smith took it upon himself to change John 1. Traditional Christianity has always understood that Jesus is God. Smith is in error here and you have no support anywhere to claim otherwise.

You stand on a very shaky, perilous foundation, that of one man.