This Kind of Thinking is Scary.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

Hmm, how about being a Prophet of God and having the authority to speak in His name. Wherein you put your faith in man and his lame wisdom to talk for God. Seems you might think God is Dead, for man does not allow God to speak anymore. Just some food for thought, good buddy.

The Christian church has Christ as its head..not a man. Jesus Christ gave all true believers in him the authority. The power to become sons of God. True believers are part of the" royal priesthood" that Peter talks about. The church Christ founded is not a building or organization. Its a body...a body of born-again believers everywhere.

[Jean Chauvin]

Hello,

This view came up during the Reformation. The answer is very colorful and very Biblical.

"Nobody knows."

The Bible was NOT written to babies. It was intended for adults. And, since the Bible does not universally address this issue, then logically:

"We are not to go beyond what is written." (I Corinthians 4:6).

So, perhaps we may know someday, but any thinking on this subject is purely in the realm of arguing from silence.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

[Richard]

[QUOTE=B2M5L2;72591]

Originally Posted by Richard

God decided. Now, one more time, What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"? And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?

God decided?? God decided? wow, I do believe that God inspired men to write as they were directed by the spirit, but do you really believe that God decided what was to be the final version and final book contained in the Bible?


The word “canon” comes from the rule of law that was used to determine if a book measured up to a standard.

Also Christian believe in a closed cannon while LDS believe that it is open cannon of scriptures. We like to think that God is in control, not visa versa where man claims the scriptures are close and by the way there is nothing you can point to that states God has finished speaking.

I rest my point, when will the Christian ever come to the unity of Faith.

After nearly nineteen centuries the canon of Scripture still remains an issue of debate. Protestants, Catholics and the Orthodox all have slightly differing collections of documents in their Bibles. Martin Luther, one of the early leaders of the Reformation, questioned the inclusion of the book of James in the canon. And many Christians today, while confessing the authority of all of Scripture, tend to rely on only a few books and particular themes while ignoring the rest.

http://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=1258

[Richard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Hmm, how about being a Prophet of God and having the authority to speak in His name.
Who would that be? Sure you jest if you mean Joe Smith, given that he never offered a prophecy that ever came to p*** and his theology was so abhorrent as to lead people into the idolatrous worship of a human being. So, just are you referring to?

Quote:
Wherein you put your faith in man and his lame wisdom to talk for God.

What man would that be?

Last time I looked this was the Mormon FORUM, so I guess it's not the Pope.

Quote:
Seems you might think God is Dead, for man does not allow God to speak anymore.

Sorry, but the Holy Spirit is alive and well, and speaks quite clearly to those who haven't decided to ignore the very vehicle God has chosen to speak through, namely the Bible.

Nothing to be sorry about:

After nearly nineteen centuries the canon of Scripture still remains an issue of debate. Protestants, Catholics and the Orthodox all have slightly differing collections of documents in their Bibles. Martin Luther, one of the early leaders of the Reformation, questioned the inclusion of the book of James in the canon. And many Christians today, while confessing the authority of all of Scripture, tend to rely on only a few books and particular themes while ignoring the rest.

http://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=1258

Quote:
Just some food for thought, good buddy.

Again, you really should change grocers, Chuck, given the anemia of the thought put into your posts.

Really? so you suggest that --- my body does not have enough healthy
red blood cells??

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

The Christian church has Christ as its head..not a man. Jesus Christ gave all true believers in him the authority. The power to become sons of God. True believers are part of the" royal priesthood" that Peter talks about. The church Christ founded is not a building or organization. Its a body...a body of born-again believers everywhere.

When's the last time Christ spoke to the body of the Church?? And what Church would he speak through?? Most interesting concept.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Its interesting but the apostle John recognized the deity of Jesus Christ. That he was with God and was God. His gospel testifies of this true deity. Yet, Joseph Smith took it upon himself to change John 1. Traditional Christianity has always understood that Jesus is God. Smith is in error here and you have no support anywhere to claim otherwise.

You stand on a very shaky, perilous foundation, that of one man.

We stand in good company, Prophets and Apostles with the keys of the Kingdom. Now we know the keys were given to Peter, wonder who he p***ed them onto?? The Catholics maybe, or maybe they were taken back when the Apostles were killed and not replaced.

[Richard]

I doubt you will have the guts to answer this, but here goes, and what particular denomination do you belong too. If you are in the least embarr***ed or in doubt of your own denomination and doctrine, then I will understand why you choose not to answer, Peace.

[Richard]

1 Samuel 1:8-2:21; Jeremiah 1:5; Luke 1:15).

This certainly affirms the salvation of some infants and repudiates the view that only baptized babies are ***ured of heaven.

Abraham said, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Genesis 18:25

[Richard]

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"?

Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, D&C, Book of Abraham, Dead Sea Scrolls, Apocalyptic literature.





And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?[/indent]

Because you can't find anything in the scriptures that state the Bible is completed and no further revelation will be forthcoming.



Since obviously you haven't, then why make silly accusations that you should know are easily re****ed by simply referring to what you've avoided?

Well, since no one has yet proven the BOM to be fiction and not the word of God, you loose.

[Richard]

Baptist: "We have tended to avoid embracing prepared creeds or other statements that might compromise our obligation to interpret Scripture as individuals within the community of faith under the guidance of the Holy Spirit."

First Christian Church: The Bible is our sole authority. Christian churches have rejected man-made creeds, doctrinal statements, and hierarchies. We use the Bible alone for guidance in matters of doctrine, structure, and practice. Many Christian churches have as a slogan, "No book but the Bible, no creed but Christ."

No Creed But Christ --- Disciples of Christ, Church of Christ, and Independent Christian Churches.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Richard

Baptist: "We have tended to avoid embracing prepared creeds or other statements that might compromise our obligation to interpret Scripture as individuals within the community of faith under the guidance of the Holy Spirit."

First Christian Church: The Bible is our sole authority. Christian churches have rejected man-made creeds, doctrinal statements, and hierarchies. We use the Bible alone for guidance in matters of doctrine, structure, and practice. Many Christian churches have as a slogan, "No book but the Bible, no creed but Christ."

No Creed But Christ --- Disciples of Christ, Church of Christ, and Independent Christian Churches.

Time to find out if they conform to the teachings of the Bible that are imprinted into the meaning of the creeds. Do they teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God in three Persons? Do they teach that God has been God from everlastings and will continued into eternity future as the Only GOD? That Jesus was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit. That He lived a sinless life died on the cross and rose the third day. That He ascended into heaven taking His rightful place at the right hand of the Father.

That is what the creeds teach so which part of that are you saying that any Christian church is rejecting? I hadn't even read the creeds until I came online to start a witnessing ministry. It was the Mormons I met here that forced me to read it.. I had be saying the same thing as these churches, that the Bible is my creed.. Then I read them. God spoke to me of their purpose. I see the Gospel taught within them..

The mormon creed doesn't address the real teaching about who the church believes God to be just a statement that they believe in a God they call the Father.. It also says they believe in a Jesus, and a Holy Ghost but never address who or what they are.. To find that out you have to delve into LDS History:

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit, and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it? (http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/Hist..._Church/Vol_VI)

Who can contradict it.. Jesus can:

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

The LORD our God is one Lord.. that does the *** of showing that Smith was a polytheistic false teacher..

So show were the Creeds are outside what the modern Church teaches and I will agree with you that the creeds are the teachings of men.. As I said when I first read them I saw the Gospel embedded within them.. the same Gospel I found in the Bible.. IHS jim

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Richard

What exactly are you alluding to when you say, "additional scripture"?

Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, D&C, Book of Abraham, Dead Sea Scrolls, Apocalyptic literature.





And why should anyone who knows anything about the canonization process of Scripture ***ume that anything beyond what is found within the 66 books of the Bible is Scripture?[/indent]

Because you can't find anything in the scriptures that state the Bible is completed and no further revelation will be forthcoming.



Since obviously you haven't, then why make silly accusations that you should know are easily re****ed by simply referring to what you've avoided?

Well, since no one has yet proven the BOM to be fiction and not the word of God, you loose.

Those writings you call "scripture" are not inspired. What your church has done is add to God's Holy Word. You have self proclaimed prophets who never even studied theology. Mr. Smith was a young man who claimed that God saddled him with this enormous responsibility to restore Christ's church which he said was lost. In other words, Smith was given the sole task of doing what Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the original Apostles failed to do. It is impossible for Christ to fail and insinuating that he did is calling God a liar.

The Bible makes it very clear that a total apostasy is impossible. From these things alone we know Smith was a false prophet.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

We stand in good company, Prophets and Apostles with the keys of the Kingdom. Now we know the keys were given to Peter, wonder who he p***ed them onto?? The Catholics maybe, or maybe they were taken back when the Apostles were killed and not replaced.

Neither you nor the catholics have any understanding about the "keys". They do not belong to a single church or organization. All born again believers in Jesus Christ are part of the Royal Priesthood. WE have the keys. What your church has done is resurrect a dead priesthood, (the Aaronic) and claim the right to the Melchizedek which was NEVER p***ed on because Christ alone holds this priesthood forever. No man even qualifies for this priesthood. Read the qualifications in Hebrews: without mother or father, without beginning or ending.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Richard

When's the last time Christ spoke to the body of the Church?? And what Church would he speak through?? Most interesting concept.

What church? Again, you need to understand that "church" is NOT a building or religious organization. Its a body of believers, the bride of Christ. We find true born-again believers in Jesus Christ everywhere in every faith. Its not a singe church as in, lds, Catholic, Episcopalian, etc etc. It consists of the "called out one", those who are Christ's sheep. His sheep hear their Master voice. The unregenerate knows nothing about this.

When has Christ ever spoke to the body of the church? Jesus said before he ascended to heaven that he would not leave us comfortless, but would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, who is God, teaches, guides, convicts, confirms, clarifies God's will for our lives and illuminates the Scriptures. God speaks to us through His Spirit. God speaks to us in His Word, in a still small voice and sometimes even in dreams. God uses others to speak to us.

The lds has men that claim to do all these things. Therein lies the difference. If your church understood the Holy Scriptures, you would see there's no need for additional "scriptures." All we need to know pertaining to salvation and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is in there.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

What church? Again, you need to understand that "church" is NOT a building or religious organization. Its a body of believers, the bride of Christ. We find true born-again believers in Jesus Christ everywhere in every faith. Its not a singe church as in, lds, Catholic, Episcopalian, etc etc. It consists of the "called out one", those who are Christ's sheep. His sheep hear their Master voice. The unregenerate knows nothing about this.

When has Christ ever spoke to the body of the church? Jesus said before he ascended to heaven that he would not leave us comfortless, but would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, who is God, teaches, guides, convicts, confirms, clarifies God's will for our lives and illuminates the Scriptures. God speaks to us through His Spirit. God speaks to us in His Word, in a still small voice and sometimes even in dreams. God uses others to speak to us.

The lds has men that claim to do all these things. Therein lies the difference. If your church understood the Holy Scriptures, you would see there's no need for additional "scriptures." All we need to know pertaining to salvation and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is in there.

Interesting, you ought to read the scriptures and how Christ Church was set up in the New Testament, way before the Creeds were issued and man decided God was dead.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Neither you nor the catholics have any understanding about the "keys". They do not belong to a single church or organization. All born again believers in Jesus Christ are part of the Royal Priesthood. WE have the keys. What your church has done is resurrect a dead priesthood, (the Aaronic) and claim the right to the Melchizedek which was NEVER p***ed on because Christ alone holds this priesthood forever. No man even qualifies for this priesthood. Read the qualifications in Hebrews: without mother or father, without beginning or ending.

So the keys are given to Peter, James and John and the apostles and you have no idea what became of them, this is what I'm hearing.

[Richard]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Time to find out if they conform to the teachings of the Bible that are imprinted into the meaning of the creeds. Do they teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God in three Persons? Do they teach that God has been God from everlastings and will continued into eternity future as the Only GOD? That Jesus was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit. That He lived a sinless life died on the cross and rose the third day. That He ascended into heaven taking His rightful place at the right hand of the Father.

That is what the creeds teach so which part of that are you saying that any Christian church is rejecting? I hadn't even read the creeds until I came online to start a witnessing ministry. It was the Mormons I met here that forced me to read it.. I had be saying the same thing as these churches, that the Bible is my creed.. Then I read them. God spoke to me of their purpose. I see the Gospel taught within them..

No contradiction, these are two separate issues which you want to ignore.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Those writings you call "scripture" are not inspired. What your church has done is add to God's Holy Word. You have self proclaimed prophets who never even studied theology. Mr. Smith was a young man who claimed that God saddled him with this enormous responsibility to restore Christ's church which he said was lost. In other words, Smith was given the sole task of doing what Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the original Apostles failed to do. It is impossible for Christ to fail and insinuating that he did is calling God a liar.

The Bible makes it very clear that a total apostasy is impossible. From these things alone we know Smith was a false prophet.

Interesting, you claim the dead sea scrolls and maybe some of the Apocalyptic literature is not inspired, wow, I'm stunned.

Those who find the Rapture in the Bible read many of its diverse apocalyptic p***ages together without recognizing the different circumstances of the believers to whom each was addressed. Instead, what should be understood as separate apocalyptic books are seen as a single work of prophecy in which future events are clearly and specifically predicted.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=Richard;72662]

No contradiction, these are two separate issues which you want to ignore.

What is separate issue about saying that the creeds are just restatement of the Gospel of Jesus that is found in the Bible..

Christian churches today can say they don't need the creeds because a large percent of people today are literate. The Bible says everything the creeds say and we get it as it was given by God (the Holy Spirit).. Yes the creeds are outmoded but that doesn't removed the fact they they told the truth of the Gospel . Giving the people the ability to have the Gospel and the true God filling their hearts and minds because of the Creeds. The people who couldn't read and couldn't afford books. Foe the purpose the Creeds were they have been a Godsend to the Church..

Why is it that you as an example ignore the 13th article of the mormon creed?

AofF 13
We believe in being honest...

IHS jim

[Richard]

[QUOTE=James Banta;72667]

Originally Posted by Richard

What is separate issue about saying that the creeds are just restatement of the Gospel of Jesus that is found in the Bible..

Christian churches today can say they don't need the creeds because a large percent of people today are literate. The Bible says everything the creeds say and we get it as it was given by God (the Holy Spirit).. Yes the creeds are outmoded but that doesn't removed the fact they they told the truth of the Gospel . Giving the people the ability to have the Gospel and the true God filling their hearts and minds because of the Creeds. The people who couldn't read and couldn't afford books. Foe the purpose the Creeds were they have been a Godsend to the Church..

Why is it that you as an example ignore the 13th article of the mormon creed?

AofF 13
We believe in being honest...

IHS jim

Interesting statement: "Yes the creeds are outmoded but that doesn't removed the fact they they told the truth of the Gospel."

No longer acceptable: outmoded.

You said it not me. Thanks for unwittingly admitting they are not longer acceptable.

[TheSword99]

The reason why councils were set up was to combat heresy and also to more clearly define the True doctrines of Christianity, lest some be swayed by the heretics. Creeds are the outcome of some of these councils. Its a statement of Faith. So Joseph Smith was just reinforcing his dislike of the Christian church and the creeds when he said they were all wrong. It certainly did not come from God because the creeds reaffirm His Word.

The lds have their creed: the articles of faith.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=Richard;72679]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Interesting statement: "Yes the creeds are outmoded but that doesn't removed the fact they they told the truth of the Gospel."

No longer acceptable: outmoded.

You said it not me. Thanks for unwittingly admitting they are not longer acceptable.

And they are outmoded.. OLD fashion.. Today people read and the truth of the creeds come though the Bible.. One is One Lord! God is the ONLY GOD that has ever or will ever exist.. That He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Three separate person in One eternal God.. Salvation is a gift of His grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING..

All doctrines of the creed that were taken direct from the Bible.. For a population where well over 90% are literate, a creed that is set in memory is no longer required. It is OUTMODED.. You speak as if you though we taught that the creeds were inerrant as the Bible is..The CREEDS were never scripture. Not like the creeds of mormonism that are included in your scripture.. IHS jim

[TheSword99]

[QUOTE=James Banta;72692]

Originally Posted by Richard

And they are outmoded.. OLD fashion.. Today people read and the truth of the creeds come though the Bible.. One is One Lord! God is the ONLY GOD that has ever or will ever exist.. That He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Three separate person in One eternal God.. Salvation is a gift of His grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING..

All doctrines of the creed that were taken direct from the Bible.. For a population where well over 90% are literate, a creed that is set in memory is no longer required. It is OUTMODED.. You speak as if you though we taught that the creeds were inerrant as the Bible is..The CREEDS were never scripture. Not like the creeds of mormonism that are included in your scripture.. IHS jim

The creeds were written up in the early history of Christianity to clearly define Christian doctrines. We no longer need them per se, because we have the Bible and true Christians understand the true doctrines.

For the same reason we no longer need Apostles today because it was a one time mission at the start of Christianity. Once the foundation had been laid and True Doctrines clearly defined, we no longer need to repeat such things.

[B2M5L2]

[QUOTE=James Banta;72692]

Originally Posted by Richard

And they are outmoded.. OLD fashion.. Today people read and the truth of the creeds come though the Bible.. One is One Lord! God is the ONLY GOD that has ever or will ever exist.. That He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Three separate person in One eternal God.. Salvation is a gift of His grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING..

All doctrines of the creed that were taken direct from the Bible.. For a population where well over 90% are literate, a creed that is set in memory is no longer required. It is OUTMODED.. You speak as if you though we taught that the creeds were inerrant as the Bible is..The CREEDS were never scripture. Not like the creeds of mormonism that are included in your scripture.. IHS jim

So, if all the doctrines of the creeds were taken directly from the Bible, yet the creeds are "outmoded..OLD fashion," then by deduction the Bible must be "outmoded..OLD fashion" as well. Nice. Way to play right into the hands of Bible critics, skeptics, and cultists everywhere.

[TheSword99]

[QUOTE=B2M5L2;72695]

Originally Posted by James Banta

So, if all the doctrines of the creeds were taken directly from the Bible, yet the creeds are "outmoded..OLD fashion," then by deduction the Bible must be "outmoded..OLD fashion" as well. Nice. Way to play right into the hands of Bible critics, skeptics, and cultists everywhere.

I think "outmoded" isn't the correct word, but in a sense we don't rely on the creeds to define doctrines as we have the Holy Scriptures.

Back then when creeds were first written up, not everyone could read nor owned a Bible. Lots of heresies crept in. The Catholic church wanted the bible to remain in Latin and thus a lot of people were bible illiterate.