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Thread: Surprising discoveries in Trinitarian theology

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    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Default Surprising discoveries in Trinitarian theology

    Most of what is attributed to the Father in the Old Testament is actually the Son (preincarnate).

    For one... the Father created only one thing: the body of the Son (John 1:14b and Hebrews 10:5b). That the Son (preincarnate) is the sole Creator of all things created in the beginning.

    Observe:

    John 1:1-3 (NASB95)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    God the Word became a man (John1:14a).

    Colossians 1:13-16 (NASB95)
    13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
    14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
    24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

    And the Holy Spirit is the one who wrote the Bible:

    2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)
    20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
    21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

    Both writing and non-writing prophets.

    Discovering these unique things about the individuals of the Godhead bolsters Trinitarian theology and further establishes that they are not one another as the Sabellians / Modalists try to make God out to be.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Notice also that the Father did not become the Father and the Son did not become the Son until the incarnation:

    Hebrews 1:5 (NIV)
    5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?


    We have a preincarnate ***le for the Son before he became the Son:

    John 1:1 (NIV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


    John 1:14 (NIV)
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


    The Father is mentioned in this verse but from the perspective of post incarnation. There is no other ***le or name given to the Father (other than the general "God" or "Lord / YHVH" which applies to all three persons / individuals of the Godhead.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Jesus is a Father, but he is not the Father (as in the Heavenly Father of the disciple's prayer {commonly mistakenly called the Lord's prayer which is actually John chapter 17}, or as in the Father of Jesus in John 1:14, John 20:17 {where he is called our Father too but only in the sense of adoption}...).

    All three individuals of the Godhead are coequal, co-eternal, existing with neither beginning or end. And only the body of the incarnate Jesus was created in the nature of the God-man; Jesus Christ.

    So God the Father is not our Grandfather. He is our Heavenly Father by adoption.


    Romans 8:15 (KJV)
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


    God the Word (who became the incarnate Christ) is the Father of all creation.

    John 1:1-3 (KJV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


    Luke 3:38 (KJV)
    38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


    God the Word has sons (man and the angels also called the sons of God... according to the above scriptures that was the preincarnate Jesus who created them).


    So don't freak out or be misled by a modalist when they resort to these scriptures...

    Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


    or

    John 14:8-9 (KJV)
    8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


    Ah, but verse 7 said (Jesus speaking) "my Father..." and the modalist thinks they have you on a hook!



    And you can go "Ah" right back at them and say look here:


    John 12:44-45 (KJV)
    44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
    45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.



    Colossians 1:13-15 (KJV)
    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


    Jesus is the only visible image of the invisible God. Show us the Father? I am all you are going to ever see of God (Father, Son, or Spirit)... Jesus speaking.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  4. #4
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    These things are not hard to get your head around. And they are biblical biblical biblical!

    The Bible is not written or structured so that we cannot comprehend its message but in such a way that we can comprehend it. What muddies the crystal clear water of this eternal fountain is human interference... erroneous teaching, misconceptions, traditions, heresy, etc. People get a convoluted idea and impose it upon the Bible, a misinterpretation, only partial information, and they run with it. In time it becomes a doctrine and a tradition. But not sound ones.

    If we subs***uted the word "family" for the word "God" to every objection modalists have... the error of their doctrine would become clear...

    "How can one God be three persons?"
    "How can one {FAMILY} be three persons?"



    God is a plurality of unity the same way a family is. A compound unity a compound oneness. And when one person in the Godhead speaks for the Godhead he / him / "I" / "me" / "mine" are applicable in the sense of that idiomatic method of speaking.

    In Star Wars III Chancellor Palpatine claimed "I am the Senate!" referring to the hundreds of thousands of Senators being under the power of his every whim. He being one spoke for the many.

    So when God says:

    Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV)
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


    Verse 11 clues us in on the fact that the preincarnate Jesus is the one who spoke for the Godhead here.


    This is not a modalist support text. It is simply God the Word speaking for the Godhead.
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    Last edited by johnd; 09-27-2015 at 07:26 AM.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Now that we have the complete word of God (by some 1600 years) and computer technology to ***ist us in our homework studying the scriptures to show ourselves approved a workman who needs not blush with embarr***ment rightly dividing the word of truth...

    we can begin a study of the nature of God unencumbered by the rigors of progressive revelation and human supposition (which was one of those must needs be evils to remedy the situation humanity got itself into)... we can go all the way back to the beginning...

    ...***ured by the scriptures that there is only one God and that the one God is three individuals...

    God individual A
    God individual B
    God individual C

    And then we can go throughout scripture attributing the offices and historic acts unique to each individual. And I rather think many believers will be quite surprised how little they know about this.

    For example:

    God individual A created only the body of the incarnate Son:

    John 1:14 (KJV)
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    Conversely:


    All other created things were created only by God individual B:


    John 1:1-3 (KJV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)
    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


    Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
    24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


    Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


    Hebrews 11:3 (KJV)
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


    A brief explanation about the use of "through" in the texts above...

    God created the worlds through the Word...

    The Trump family fortune was made through Donald Trump Sr. This obviously doesn't make Donald Sr. any lesser Trump nor does it imply that any other family member had a hand in the making of the fortune.

    So God (the Triune God) made all the worlds through God individual B.... is all those verses are saying.

    So God individual A is the unique Creator of the body of the incarnate Son (which God individual B who preexisted this advent became that incarnate Son).

    And God individual B is the Creator of all else (all things that were created).


    Genesis 1:1

    1 In the beginning God individual B created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:1
    1 In the beginning God the Word created the heaven and the earth.


    Genesis 1:1
    1 In the beginning the preincarnate Jesus created the heaven and the earth.


    All viable interpretations of verse 1 in the Bible.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  6. #6
    alanmolstad
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    I was reading your post...and near the end it gets a little too tricky for me to follow...so I lost your point?

  7. #7
    alanmolstad
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    within the nature of the one true God there are 3 persons.

    all are God, yet there is only one God.

    They are all different persons, in that they are not just figures of speech.....

    they are real individuals with individual personalities.

    They love each other.
    They are with each other.

  8. #8
    alanmolstad
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    so while i agree with all this stuff, Im still not sure about the statement seen here about the "father making the body of the son"

    If I remember how things went, we find that the trinity is always united in the stuff dealing with the incarnation...and that the Holy Spirit was also in on this as much as both the father and the Son

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    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    John 1:14 (NASB95)
    14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    Hebrews 1:5 (NASB95)
    5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”?


    Hebrews 10:5 (NASB95)
    5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;




    Jesus is the lone Creator in the Godhead in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24) who acted alone / by himself though in company with the Father (1 John 1:2) and the Spirit (Genesis 1:2).

    The only creation of the Father (only begotten) is the body of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrew 1:5 / John 1:14.


    Luke 3:38 (NASB95)
    38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

    Cannot refer to God the Father if Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father.


    ...Adam, the son of God the Word lone Creator in the beginning of all things created who became the incarnate Jesus.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    Most of what is attributed to the Father in the Old Testament is actually the Son (preincarnate).

    For one... the Father created only one thing: the body of the Son (John 1:14b and Hebrews 10:5b). That the Son (preincarnate) is the sole Creator of all things created in the beginning.

    Observe:

    John 1:1-3 (NASB95)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    God the Word became a man (John1:14a).

    Colossians 1:13-16 (NASB95)
    13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
    14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
    24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

    And the Holy Spirit is the one who wrote the Bible:

    2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)
    20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
    21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

    Both writing and non-writing prophets.

    Discovering these unique things about the individuals of the Godhead bolsters Trinitarian theology and further establishes that they are not one another as the Sabellians / Modalists try to make God out to be.
    I don't completely get what you're saying here, can you please clarify?
    1. You mentioned that when the Word was incarnated, that He BECAME the Son? Do I understand you correctly here? That Father-Son relationship didn't happen until the Word was incarnate?
    2. Then you are saying that God-Word relationship is fundamentally different than Father-Son relationship?
    3. So you don't think that God had the same Father-Son-Holy Spirit relationship they have today in the NT era?

    I admit that I didn't study all you said in this thread, so I might be misunderstanding you.
    TD

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    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    I don't completely get what you're saying here, can you please clarify?
    1. You mentioned that when the Word was incarnated, that He BECAME the Son? Do I understand you correctly here? That Father-Son relationship didn't happen until the Word was incarnate?
    2. Then you are saying that God-Word relationship is fundamentally different than Father-Son relationship?
    3. So you don't think that God had the same Father-Son-Holy Spirit relationship they have today in the NT era?

    I admit that I didn't study all you said in this thread, so I might be misunderstanding you.
    TD
    John 1-2 and John 1:14 along with Philippians 2:6 clearly indicate The Word became a man and in the Philippians 2:6 text in the Greek states "morphe theos huparchon" never ceasing to be God. It was at this incarnation that he became the Son. Hebrews 1:5 explicitly proves this. Hebrews 10:5 proves the one who would become the Father is the creator of the body that the Word would become and John 1:14 clearly states that the Father did this and only created in this case. Though all three were present (the Holy Spirit Genesis 1:2, the Father 1 John 1:2, and of course the Word John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Hebrews 1:2... Isaiah 44:24 states clearly that the Maker of all things created in the beginning did so "alone" "by myself."

    There are references to other sons of God in Genesis 6, *** 1, *** 2, Luke 3:38, and the many verses that say we who believe in Jesus are children of God. But John 1:14 can only be true if the Father created nothing but the body of the Son (Hebrews 10:5 Hebrews 1:5).

    Before then, actually before creation there was no distinction in office in the Godhead. Since then the three equal individuals occupy offices (apparently necessary to deal with what goes on in creation) the Authority (the Father) the Creator / Savior (the Son) the Bible Author / revealer of truth (the Holy Spirit)
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  12. #12
    alanmolstad
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    Im not sure how it all works out....sometimes I think we are just making stuff up that sounds good to our human ears....

  13. #13
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Im not sure how it all works out....sometimes I think we are just making stuff up that sounds good to our human ears....
    ?

    2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    All scripture was prophetic until the canonization of it. Therefore, no scripture is of any private interpretation. The Holy Spirit is the sole interpreter of scripture and his interpretations are found (you guessed it) in scripture. Some say it like this "the Bible is its own best commentary." At any rate, how can you say this, alan, in light of all the scripture I cited and even quoted?

    Oh well, que sera sera... everfybody sees things different... you got YOUR truth I got MY truth...

    If we have any hope of ANY truth existing at all we need to put our trust in God's word.


    1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV)
    21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


    1 John 4:1 (KJV)
    1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


    Acts 17:11 (KJV)
    11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.



    2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  14. #14
    bluto
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    Hi, I was reading what your wrote in this thread and in your first post, first sentence you said the following: "Most of what is attributed to the Father in the Old Testament is actually the Son (preincarnate). Then here in your last post you say, "It was at this incarnation that he became the Son." How do you reconcile the contradiction of your words?

    In Him,
    bluto

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    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Hi, I was reading what your wrote in this thread and in your first post, first sentence you said the following: "Most of what is attributed to the Father in the Old Testament is actually the Son (preincarnate). Then here in your last post you say, "It was at this incarnation that he became the Son." How do you reconcile the contradiction of your words?

    In Him,
    bluto

    Both refer to God the Word. No contradiction at all.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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