What is Spirit?

[Russianwolfe]

The claim is made that God the Father is spirit, and the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well are used to back this up.

I understand the verse but I don't understand what spirit is. Can anyone provide any Biblical verses to show what Spirit is? And don't tell me what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection. I don't need to know what a spirit is not. I want to know what a spirit is.

Anyone?

Marvin

[dfoJC]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

The claim is made that God the Father is spirit, and the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well are used to back this up.

I understand the verse but I don't understand what spirit is. Can anyone provide any Biblical verses to show what Spirit is? And don't tell me what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection. I don't need to know what a spirit is not. I want to know what a spirit is.

Anyone?

Marvin

An interesting question Marvin. I will take a brief stab at this, but understand that the references to "spirit" in the Word are many and after a few moments of study I can find none that "define" what spirit is, however, when we look at the word spirit in the original languages we get some idea.

In Hebrew culture the spirit of a man is considered his center, in other words whatever is in the spirit of a man, that is what rules the man. Our soul is intimately connected to our spirit. So much so that whatever lives in our spirit rules over our soul, which is our mind will and emotions.

In the O.T. the most oft word used for spirit is "ruach." It has several definitions, the first being "breath." For example the Spirit of God is called "Ruach Ha Kodesh" it literally means the Breath of God. In Greek the word is "pneuma," and it has the same meaning of ruach.

As you are LDS, and I am not LDS so we are going to disagree at this point. It is the spirit of man that needs to be born again. Why? Well, it all gets back to what the Word calls "old nature." That is, the nature of Adam that we are all born with. If your spirit is not born again, frankly, then one is still living under the influence of what the first Adam bought into in the garden.

Trust this helps you out Marvin.

Take care,

dfoJC

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

An interesting question Marvin. I will take a brief stab at this, but understand that the references to "spirit" in the Word are many and after a few moments of study I can find none that "define" what spirit is, however, when we look at the word spirit in the original languages we get some idea.

In Hebrew culture the spirit of a man is considered his center, in other words whatever is in the spirit of a man, that is what rules the man. Our soul is intimately connected to our spirit. So much so that whatever lives in our spirit rules over our soul, which is our mind will and emotions.

In the O.T. the most oft word used for spirit is "ruach." It has several definitions, the first being "breath." For example the Spirit of God is called "Ruach Ha Kodesh" it literally means the Breath of God. In Greek the word is "pneuma," and it has the same meaning of ruach.

As you are LDS, and I am not LDS so we are going to disagree at this point. It is the spirit of man that needs to be born again. Why? Well, it all gets back to what the Word calls "old nature." That is, the nature of Adam that we are all born with. If your spirit is not born again, frankly, then one is still living under the influence of what the first Adam bought into in the garden.

Trust this helps you out Marvin.

Take care,

dfoJC

Thanks for your post. I think we agree more than you think.

But as you pointed out, you didn't give me a Bibical definition of what spirit is.

Thanks, anyway.

Marvin

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Thanks for your post. I think we agree more than you think.

But as you pointed out, you didn't give me a Bibical definition of what spirit is.

Thanks, anyway.

Marvin

We can make some ***umption based on what is taught in the Bible.. There we find that a spirit does not have flesh and bone.. As you have said the bible says that God is Spirit. Can I ***ume that God is also intelligent? The Bible says that God lives, and that He is invisible.. So a spirit is a living intelligent en***y that does not have flesh and bone. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

The claim is made that God the Father is spirit, and the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well are used to back this up.

ESV Study Bible
"John 4:24 God is spirit means that God is not made of any physical matter and does not have a material body but has a more wonderful kind of existence that is everywhere present (hence worship is not confined to one place, v. 21), is not perceived by the bodily senses (cf. 3:6, 8), and yet is so powerful that he brought the universe into existence (cf. 1:1–3, 10; 17:5). Because “God is spirit,” the Israelites were not to make idols “in the form of anything” in creation as did the surrounding nations (Ex. 20:4)."

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

We can make some ***umption based on what is taught in the Bible.. There we find that a spirit does not have flesh and bone.. As you have said the bible says that God is Spirit. Can I ***ume that God is also intelligent? The Bible says that God lives, and that He is invisible.. So a spirit is a living intelligent en***y that does not have flesh and bone. IHS jim

Like I said In the OP, James, I want to know what a spirit is not what it isn't. And you haven't provided any scriptural basis for what you say. It is most telling that you "***ume" what you are claiming a spirit is.

Next time how about providing Biblical basis for what you are claiming.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Next time how about providing Biblical basis for what you are claiming.

Marvin

Marvin we have answered your question. What exactly are you after?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by apexviper

God is a Spirit

"Note that in the KJV cited above, the word “is” is italicized. This is because the King James translators have inserted it on their own—it is not present in the Greek text from which the translation was made.

Secondly, the reader should be aware that the indefinite article (“a”, as in "a dog" or "a spirit") does not exist in Greek. Thus, the addition of the word "a" in English occurs at the discretion of the translators.[1]

This leaves two Greek words: theos pneuma [θεος πνεμα]—“God spirit”. The JST resolves this translational issue by saying “for unto such hath God promised his spirit”. The word pneuma, which is translated spirit, also means ‘life’ or ‘breath’. The King James Version of Revelation 13:15 renders ‘pneuma’ as life. Thus "God is life," or "God is the breath of life" are potential alternative translations of this verse. "

Saying that actually defines His being is irrational. There are verses that say He is light and and fire. Is God the Father a big wall of flame? No.

Why didn't you tell us where you got this from?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Nature_of_God/God_is_a_Spirit

[dfoJC]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Thanks for your post. I think we agree more than you think.

But as you pointed out, you didn't give me a Bibical definition of what spirit is.

Thanks, anyway.

Marvin

You are welcome Marvin. Interesting to hear that "we agree more than you think."

Even though we have yet to find a definitive verse that states "this is what the spirit is" I think we need to look at this a bit more. I think this discussion is of utmost importance for us, so I am going to offer up a couple of scriptures and observations for us to consider. Please understand, this is not an attempt at a derail-I just believe there needs to be more clarification about the spirit.

In Zecaraiah 12:1 it says this, "The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." Those last seven words are significant when it comes to discussing "spirit." My point simply being, God formed the spirit of man within him. Our spirit then is created.

As is our soul, Isaiah 57:16 says this; "For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made." Note that spirit and soul are separate and that they would "fail" before Him-that means in His presence.

So, to get back to your question-"what is spirit." First I believe that the spirit is life. Notice when Jesus died on the cross it says in Matthew 27:50 that Jesus gave up His spirit and died, so, without the spirit, there is no life.

Here is another verse to consider; "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63. So, Jesus Himself is saying that His words are spirit.

Spirit is life, spirit is the word. Finally may I suggest that we have a spirit because He is Spirit? How then does God interact with those who have been reborn of the Spirit? Well it has to be via our spirit-of course this deals more with purpose rather than definition. This also reminds me that that salvation is an inside out work, and not the other way around. Nothing we can do can bring our spirits to life-this is a work that only God can do, and He does so through salvation...Of course I recognize that the LDS will disagree....

Blessings,

dfoJC

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by christian4life

The original Bible did not have italicized words.

It is well know that the italicized words are added in. One big clue is that they are italicized. Certainly you don't need LDS to tell Christians that.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Like I said In the OP, James, I want to know what a spirit is not what it isn't. And you haven't provided any scriptural basis for what you say. It is most telling that you "***ume" what you are claiming a spirit is.

Next time how about providing Biblical basis for what you are claiming.

Marvin

Yes indeed I made some terrible ***umptions.. Like God is intelligent.. Then I hold a verse of the Bible up for examination that God is Spirit (John 4:24).. Then I tell you what Jesus said a Spirit isn't (Luke 24:39). That information should help you see that a Spirit is.. I will add one more, a spirit is invisible, for God is Spirit and is called invisible (Col 2:15).. If God had a body as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22) it would be visible.. That is proof right there that Smith was a false prophet, for he again spoke in the name of some other God, other than the one revealed by the Bible.. A SPIRIT is not flesh..

But of course none of this will be on subject to you.. You never see any real answer as being on the subject you try to twist to fit into mormonism.. The mormon concept of God is flawed.. Smith said that God having a Spirit meets the requirement for the verse about God being Spirit.. But Jesus did say that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone.. So Smith's and therefore mormonism's idea of what a spirit will include is WRONG.. He didn't lie this time, he just didn't know what he was talking about.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes indeed I made some terrible ***umptions.. Like God is intelligent..

The word ***ume was your word. And so was the modifier terrible.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then I hold a verse of the Bible up for examination that God is Spirit (John 4:24)..

Which tells us what God is but does nothing for our understanding of what Spirit is, according to the Bible.

If you try to define salt as salty, you have said nothing. Your definition does not help us understand what salt is. And the verse you refer to does not help us understand what Spirit is. And until it does, it doesn't help you understand God either.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then I tell you what Jesus said a Spirit isn't (Luke 24:39).

Yes, and this is exactly what I asked you not to tell me. Spirit isn't a lot of things and none of them help us to understand what Spirit is.

Originally Posted by James Banta

That information should help you see that a Spirit is..

So far you are batting a big fat zero. Nothing of what you have said in this post or in the previous one helps us to understand what Spirit is.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I will add one more, a spirit is invisible, for God is Spirit and is called invisible (Col 2:15)..

Again, you are ***uming that a spirit is invisible just because you make a connection between what Christ said and what Paul said. It could also be that God is invisible for some other reason and not because he is Spirit as you claim.

Originally Posted by James Banta

If God had a body as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22) it would be visible..

So you ***ume.

Originally Posted by James Banta

That is proof right there that Smith was a false prophet, for he again spoke in the name of some other God, other than the one revealed by the Bible.. A SPIRIT is not flesh..

And you haven't shown what Spirit is and so have come to a false conclusion based on your own ***umptions and conclusions that are not warranted until you can show us what Spirit really is.

Originally Posted by James Banta

But of course none of this will be on subject to you.. You never see any real answer as being on the subject you try to twist to fit into mormonism..

I haven't said anything about Mormonism. You brought that up. I am asking for a Biblical definition of what Spirit is. So far, you have nothing. Speculation, and stating your ***umptions as fact is not a Biblical definition.

Originally Posted by James Banta

The mormon concept of God is flawed..

It is different from yours, but you have not established that it is flawed. You are expecting us to accept your statement of opinion as fact. Sorry, won't do that. And won't let you get away with it.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Smith said that God having a Spirit meets the requirement for the verse about God being Spirit..

CFR

Originally Posted by James Banta

But Jesus did say that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone..

Christ was addressing the fears of the apostles and not trying to give them more information about God. You can't really use this verse the way you think you can. To do so is to rip it from context. It was about the apostles fears not about God. And if you believe in only one God, the fact that Christ had a resurrected body shows that God is not simply Spirit.

Originally Posted by James Banta

So Smith's and therefore mormonism's idea of what a spirit will include is WRONG..

You have to show us a Biblical definition of what Spirit is before you can make this statement true. So far you haven't.

Originally Posted by James Banta

He didn't lie this time, he just didn't know what he was talking about.. IHS jim

You conclusion is not warranted based on what you have presented here.

So far, no one has been able to present any Biblical definition of what a Spirit is. What should I conclude about what a Spirit is?

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

And I will say it again, we agree far more than you believe.

And I will to say again, that you have not provided a Bibical definition of what spirit is.

Marvin

Originally Posted by dfoJC

You are welcome Marvin. Interesting to hear that "we agree more than you think."

Even though we have yet to find a definitive verse that states "this is what the spirit is" I think we need to look at this a bit more. I think this discussion is of utmost importance for us, so I am going to offer up a couple of scriptures and observations for us to consider. Please understand, this is not an attempt at a derail-I just believe there needs to be more clarification about the spirit.

In Zecaraiah 12:1 it says this, "The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." Those last seven words are significant when it comes to discussing "spirit." My point simply being, God formed the spirit of man within him. Our spirit then is created.

As is our soul, Isaiah 57:16 says this; "For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made." Note that spirit and soul are separate and that they would "fail" before Him-that means in His presence.

So, to get back to your question-"what is spirit." First I believe that the spirit is life. Notice when Jesus died on the cross it says in Matthew 27:50 that Jesus gave up His spirit and died, so, without the spirit, there is no life.

Here is another verse to consider; "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63. So, Jesus Himself is saying that His words are spirit.

Spirit is life, spirit is the word. Finally may I suggest that we have a spirit because He is Spirit? How then does God interact with those who have been reborn of the Spirit? Well it has to be via our spirit-of course this deals more with purpose rather than definition. This also reminds me that that salvation is an inside out work, and not the other way around. Nothing we can do can bring our spirits to life-this is a work that only God can do, and He does so through salvation...Of course I recognize that the LDS will disagree....

Blessings,

dfoJC

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

The word ***ume was your word. And so was the modifier terrible.



Which tells us what God is but does nothing for our understanding of what Spirit is, according to the Bible.

If you try to define salt as salty, you have said nothing. Your definition does not help us understand what salt is. And the verse you refer to does not help us understand what Spirit is. And until it does, it doesn't help you understand God either.



Yes, and this is exactly what I asked you not to tell me. Spirit isn't a lot of things and none of them help us to understand what Spirit is.



So far you are batting a big fat zero. Nothing of what you have said in this post or in the previous one helps us to understand what Spirit is.



Again, you are ***uming that a spirit is invisible just because you make a connection between what Christ said and what Paul said. It could also be that God is invisible for some other reason and not because he is Spirit as you claim.



So you ***ume.



And you haven't shown what Spirit is and so have come to a false conclusion based on your own ***umptions and conclusions that are not warranted until you can show us what Spirit really is.



I haven't said anything about Mormonism. You brought that up. I am asking for a Biblical definition of what Spirit is. So far, you have nothing. Speculation, and stating your ***umptions as fact is not a Biblical definition.



It is different from yours, but you have not established that it is flawed. You are expecting us to accept your statement of opinion as fact. Sorry, won't do that. And won't let you get away with it.



CFR



Christ was addressing the fears of the apostles and not trying to give them more information about God. You can't really use this verse the way you think you can. To do so is to rip it from context. It was about the apostles fears not about God. And if you believe in only one God, the fact that Christ had a resurrected body shows that God is not simply Spirit.



You have to show us a Biblical definition of what Spirit is before you can make this statement true. So far you haven't.



You conclusion is not warranted based on what you have presented here.

So far, no one has been able to present any Biblical definition of what a Spirit is. What should I conclude about what a Spirit is?

Marvin

No one will ever be able to give you what you insist on having.. The Bible teaches that God is not a person of flesh and bone.. Therefore a spirit is a person who is not flesh and bone yet exists as a person.. Yes The Apostle were afraid and Jesus explained that he was real and not a spirit by telling us that spirits don't have tangible bodies.. Mormonism teaches the exact opposite of that om the BofM.. This is your CFR.

Father in Heaven: A perfect being who looks like a mortal man but has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. He is the Father of our spirits, to whom we pray. (Gospel Fundamentals, 2002. p. 280)

You do accept a doctrine what the Prophet calls Gospel Fundamentals do you not? This is a clear denial of the words of Jesus:

John 4:24
God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Mormonism teaches that this is in error no matter how much you deny it:

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us" (D. & C. 130:22).

Clearly this p***age supports the idea of the mormon concept I have shown here that the Father is a person of flesh and bone and not just Spirit.. The best you can do to make momronism fit it to say that God has a spirit..

I have shown from the Bible that a spirit in not tangible. So what is a spirit? The Bible doesn't describe that any more than to say that God is Spirit.. That should be enough.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No one will ever be able to give you what you insist on having..

Why is it so difficult to get a Biblical definition of what Spirit is? This is a very important question. Can anyone provide the answer? What does the Bible say that Spirit is?

Originally Posted by James Banta

The Bible teaches that God is not a person of flesh and bone..

CFR. Provide the verses say exactly what you have claimed. No one has ever said what you say here. Where is the verses that make this claim?

And you lose. You are deflecting from the OP. Let's get back on the OP. Is that too much to ask?

Originally Posted by James Banta

Therefore a spirit is a person who is not flesh and bone yet exists as a person..

And again, you are telling me what Spirit is not, exactly what I ask you not to tell me. Are you going to tell me that Spirit is not..............a howitzer? Or a telephone? We all know millions of things that Spirit is not. What I am asking for is a Biblical definition of what a spirit is?

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes The Apostle were afraid and Jesus explained that he was real and not a spirit by telling us that spirits don't have tangible bodies..

Like he had. A tangible body like Christ had. Which sorta contradicts your claim that God is just a spirit. Unless you don't believe Jesus to be God.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Mormonism teaches the exact opposite of that om the BofM.. This is your CFR.

Father in Heaven: A perfect being who looks like a mortal man but has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. He is the Father of our spirits, to whom we pray. (Gospel Fundamentals, 2002. p. 280)

You do accept a doctrine what the Prophet calls Gospel Fundamentals do you not?

This book is not the prophet speaking. It is a book prepared to teach people the fundamentals of the Gospel. Your attempt to give this book more authority than it should have is noted as a deceptive tactic.

You made a references to the BofM but did not provide a reference from that book. Can you please either provide a reference or stop making these kinds of claims? You are making your position look real weak especially when you make reference to something that you don't provide.

And you claimed that Joseph Smith made a statement about God having a spirit. This you have not CFR'ed. You have failed to provide the reference to back up your statement. Again, making your position look really really weak.

Originally Posted by James Banta

This is a clear denial of the words of Jesus:

John 4:24
God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Mormonism teaches that this is in error no matter how much you deny it:

And so far you haven't provided a Biblical definition of what spirit is. How can you know for sure that this is a an error? If you don't know what spirit is how can you say that this an error? The only thing you can say is what it isn't and that doesn't help you understand what spirit is.

Originally Posted by James Banta

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us" (D. & C. 130:22).

Clearly this p***age supports the idea of the mormon concept I have shown here that the Father is a person of flesh and bone and not just Spirit.. The best you can do to make momronism fit it to say that God has a spirit..

And you still insist on telling me the errors of Mormonism but you are failing to tell me what spirit is. Why not stick to the OP? All this other stuff is just a deflection to cover up the fact that you have failed to provide a Biblical definition for what a spirit is. Stick to the OP.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have shown from the Bible that a spirit in not tangible. So what is a spirit? The Bible doesn't describe that any more than to say that God is Spirit.. That should be enough.. IHS jim

Why should that be enough? You make many claims about what a spirit is and claim that this proves LDS doctrine is wrong. But if you don't know what a spirit is how can you say that LDS doctrine is wrong? You are arguing from silence which is a logical fallacy. Find out what spirit is before you say we are wrong about it.

Marvin

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Why is it so difficult to get a Biblical definition of what Spirit is? This is a very important question. Can anyone provide the answer? What does the Bible say that Spirit is?



CFR. Provide the verses say exactly what you have claimed. No one has ever said what you say here. Where is the verses that make this claim?

And you lose. You are deflecting from the OP. Let's get back on the OP. Is that too much to ask?



And again, you are telling me what Spirit is not, exactly what I ask you not to tell me. Are you going to tell me that Spirit is not..............a howitzer? Or a telephone? We all know millions of things that Spirit is not. What I am asking for is a Biblical definition of what a spirit is?



Like he had. A tangible body like Christ had. Which sorta contradicts your claim that God is just a spirit. Unless you don't believe Jesus to be God.



This book is not the prophet speaking. It is a book prepared to teach people the fundamentals of the Gospel. Your attempt to give this book more authority than it should have is noted as a deceptive tactic.

You made a references to the BofM but did not provide a reference from that book. Can you please either provide a reference or stop making these kinds of claims? You are making your position look real weak especially when you make reference to something that you don't provide.

And you claimed that Joseph Smith made a statement about God having a spirit. This you have not CFR'ed. You have failed to provide the reference to back up your statement. Again, making your position look really really weak.



And so far you haven't provided a Biblical definition of what spirit is. How can you know for sure that this is a an error? If you don't know what spirit is how can you say that this an error? The only thing you can say is what it isn't and that doesn't help you understand what spirit is.



And you still insist on telling me the errors of Mormonism but you are failing to tell me what spirit is. Why not stick to the OP? All this other stuff is just a deflection to cover up the fact that you have failed to provide a Biblical definition for what a spirit is. Stick to the OP.



Why should that be enough? You make many claims about what a spirit is and claim that this proves LDS doctrine is wrong. But if you don't know what a spirit is how can you say that LDS doctrine is wrong? You are arguing from silence which is a logical fallacy. Find out what spirit is before you say we are wrong about it.

Marvin

This is just an attack on Christianity. Because we believe the Bible and what it says about God being a spirit, you seem to prefer to bring this up INSTEAD of the fact that the lds church teaches that God has a body like ours. Being the Mormonism category, we need to discuss mormon beliefs. This is what most of the lds on here refuse to want to talk about.

So tell us why you don't believe God is a spirit but rather has a body of flesh and bone.

The Bible says that Christ is the image of the invisible God. Being invisible means sans body. The Bible tells us that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. God cannot be all these things if he were like us with a body which would mean He is confined by space and time. The bible tells us that a thousand years is like a day to God so He is OUTSIDE of time. That is sufficient for me. But it seems the lds wants to go beyond that because of your unscriptual teachings. You are hoping that Christians cannot answer your original question and thereby try and use this to show that means God is like us with a body of flesh and bone, but you didn't get your teaching from the Holy Bible, but from Joe Smith.

Marvin, where in all of God's word does it say God has a body as tangible as man's? Please provide Scriptural reference. Chapter and verse.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

So far, no one has been able to present any Biblical definition of what a Spirit is. What should I conclude about what a Spirit is?
Marvin

Marvin I guess this means you should conclude that YOU think that this means a spirit is a body of flesh and bones or has a body of flesh and bones.

[James Banta]

[Russianwolfe;74528]Why is it so difficult to get a Biblical definition of what Spirit is? This is a very important question. Can anyone provide the answer? What does the Bible say that Spirit is?

I have given you all that the Bible says about the nature of a spirit.. That it isn't physical that is it doesn't have flesh or bones.. I can add that John teaches that we don't know what we will be other than we will be like Him for we will see him as He is (1 John 3:2).. If you demand more you will have to wait til that time..

CFR. Provide the verses say exactly what you have claimed. No one has ever said what you say here. Where is the verses that make this claim?

I have given you the reference In Luke 24:39.. You have ignored that going on with the idea that God has a resurrected body as tangible a man's.. A Body of flesh and bone.. Jesus taught different..

And you lose. You are deflecting from the OP. Let's get back on the OP. Is that too much to ask?

You asked what a spirit is when I show you from the words of Jesus you deny it and say that it is wrong.. But that is what you always do if the Bible disagrees with you your weapon is to dent it's message..

And again, you are telling me what Spirit is not, exactly what I ask you not to tell me. Are you going to tell me that Spirit is not..............a howitzer? Or a telephone? We all know millions of things that Spirit is not. What I am asking for is a Biblical definition of what a spirit is?

A spirit according to the context of Jesus appearing to the Apostles in Luke 24 is that a spirit is the living part of a person not an inanimate object.. I have given you what the Bible teaches about the nature of a spirit.. You just reject it..

Like he had. A tangible body like Christ had. Which sorta contradicts your claim that God is just a spirit. Unless you don't believe Jesus to be God.

The Father may be called God separately of conjunctively with the Son and the Holy Spirit. Both usages are proper because the Father is all the God there is or ever can be.. Do you wish to discuss the Trinity again?

This book is not the prophet speaking. It is a book prepared to teach people the fundamentals of the Gospel. Your attempt to give this book more authority than it should have is noted as a deceptive tactic.

This reference is from an official LDS church publication. One approved by the highest authorities of the church. That mean that they agree with all that is being taught that and take full responsibility for it's content.. It is as if they wrote the whole of that manual.. There is no deception in my statement.. To say that official church publications are not the responsibility (The content that is) of the leadership is to be deceptive..

You made a references to the BofM but did not provide a reference from that book. Can you please either provide a reference or stop making these kinds of claims? You are making your position look real weak especially when you make reference to something that you don't provide.

I quoted a LDS statement and gave the reference.. But in Alma 18:26-28 we see that the BofM teaches that God is a spirit. If you will look back at my quote you will see that I gave the reference for the quote I used..

And you claimed that Joseph Smith made a statement about God having a spirit. This you have not CFR'ed. You have failed to provide the reference to back up your statement. Again, making your position look really really weak.

You are right I can't fine that quote so I retract and yield that point.. At the same time are you going to tell me that you have never heard that taught.. I have many times.. That is how the problem of this p***age was explained to me by SS teachers, Seminary teachers, bishops and counselors.

And so far you haven't provided a Biblical definition of what spirit is. How can you know for sure that this is a an error? If you don't know what spirit is how can you say that this an error? The only thing you can say is what it isn't and that doesn't help you understand what spirit is.

Oh course I have you just won't accept the words of Jesus as being the truth.. I know this is correct because I have the Lord's word that His word will never p*** away.. This is his word on the nature of a spirit.. It hasn't flesh and bone.. He taught that God is Spirit.. Anyone that teaches different than that is teaching error..

And you still insist on telling me the errors of Mormonism but you are failing to tell me what spirit is. Why not stick to the OP? All this other stuff is just a deflection to cover up the fact that you have failed to provide a Biblical definition for what a spirit is. Stick to the OP.

Just because you deny the scripture on the nature of God doesn't mean that I haven't explained it by the by that authority.. Jesus did say that God is Spirit and that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone.. That should be enough for a person who says that they believe in God and know that He doesn't lie.. But it is part of mormonism to cal God a liar.. His word has been corrupted.. Never mind His promises to the contrary..

Why should that be enough? You make many claims about what a spirit is and claim that this proves LDS doctrine is wrong. But if you don't know what a spirit is how can you say that LDS doctrine is wrong? You are arguing from silence which is a logical fallacy. Find out what spirit is before you say we are wrong about it.

It should be enough because that is what Jesus told us! Mormonism hold the doctrine that the Father is a person of flesh and bone.. Jesus said that He is NOT.. Jesus is right, Mormonism is wrong.. If you don't even hold the correct doctrine about who and what God is then saying that Mormonism is wrong is truth.. I know that a spirit is a person without physical form.. that is the meaning of the word of Jesus.. You wish to reject this because of Smith rants near the end of his life.. You do know that in the lectures on Faith the explanation of the nature of God is more in line with the Bible and less insistent that God has a physical body.

In 1835 the "Lectures on Faith", which were originally delivered before a cl*** of the Elders, in Kirtland, Ohio, were printed in the Doctrine and Covenants. In these lectures it was definitely stated that God the Father was a personage of spirit.

In the fifth lecture we find this statement about the Godhead:

"... the Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power, possessing all perfection and fulness, the Son, ... a personage of tabernacle ..." (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 Edition, page 53)

The "Lectures on Faith" not only taught that God the Father is a spirit, but also that God is omnipresent. Present everywhere at the same time. In the second lecture the following statement is made:

We here observe that God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicient; without beginning of days or end of life; ... (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 Edition, page 12)

But here you are insisting that I don't understand the meaning of what a spirit is.. Ok by Smith own words herein the lectures a spirit is a person but is not a person of tabernacle.. See even the highest authority of mormonism describes a spirit by what it is not.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

This is just an attack on Christianity.

My asking a question is an attack on Christianity???????? If I look at you wrong is that an attack on you??????

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Because we believe the Bible and what it says about God being a spirit, you seem to prefer to bring this up INSTEAD of the fact that the lds church teaches that God has a body like ours.

Unless you know what spirit is by Biblical definition what are you saying when you say that God is spirit? If the Bible does not say what spirit is, how can you say?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Being the Mormonism category, we need to discuss mormon beliefs. This is what most of the lds on here refuse to want to talk about.

I am attempting to engage in a conversation about Spirit. If you don't know what spirit is, then how can you say that our definition is wrong? If we are to talk about LDS beliefs, you must have something to compare it to. If not, then you have nothing to say that is Biblical. If it is not Biblical, then what is it? Who told you what spirit is? Who defined spirit if it is not in the Bible?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

So tell us why you don't believe God is a spirit but rather has a body of flesh and bone.

If you don't know what Spirit is by Biblical definition, how can you say that I don't believe it? If you don't have a clear Biblical definition as to what spirit is, then what do you have?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

The Bible says that Christ is the image of the invisible God.

And Christ has a resurrected body. If Christ is in the image of the invisible God, why doesn't the invisible God have a body?

But this is off topic. I am trying to understand what you mean when you say God is spirit by asking what does the Bible mean when it says spirit. Unless you know from the Bible what spirit is how can you know what God is?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Being invisible means sans body.

Why does it mean 'sans body'? That is you arguing from your conclusions. Invisible only means not seen. It has no relationship to whether or not God has a body. You are attempting to short cut the argument by claiming a definition that is not true except in your own beliefs which you haven't shown to be Biblical.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

The Bible tells us that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. God cannot be all these things if he were like us with a body which would mean He is confined by space and time.

What convoluted logic led you to this conclusion? Why does God have to be unconfined by space and time if he is all powerful (omnipotent)?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

The bible tells us that a thousand years is like a day to God so He is OUTSIDE of time.

Why does this have to be? The very fact that it is defined as a longer space of time actually proves you wrong. If God is outside of space and time, then no measurement is valid and yet a thousand years are as a day to God. Just because he is immortal and would see time differently than you or I who measure our whole life in less than a hundred years (except for a lucky few) doesn't mean that he is outside of space and time. Your conclusions are not valid nor supported by any evidence or logical on your part. I don't accept your statements of opinion as fact. Show me the evidence for your statement so I can make my own decision.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

That is sufficient for me.

But not for me. I would like to see the evidence you have from the Bible that leads to that conclusion. Otherwise, it is just your opinion and of no serious import.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

But it seems the lds wants to go beyond that because of your unscriptual teachings.

Again, you are attempting to hijack this thread. Let's get back to the Biblical definition of spirit.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

You are hoping that Christians cannot answer your original question and thereby try and use this to show that means God is like us with a body of flesh and bone, but you didn't get your teaching from the Holy Bible, but from Joe Smith.

I am doing nothing of the kind. It occured to me that I don't know what the Bible means by spirit. After a search on my own, I am now asking you and your friends to see if I maybe missed something. LDS doctrine very clearly defines what spirit is. But if you don't know what the Biblical definition of spirit is, how can you say that our definition is wrong?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Marvin, where in all of God's word does it say God has a body as tangible as man's? Please provide Scriptural reference. Chapter and verse.

No, this is not about your questions that are a clear attempt to hijack this thread. Please stick to the OP.

Marivn

PS. In Luke, Christ appears to the apostles and clearly states that he has a body which a spirit does not. He then eats a honey comb and a fish. Why would he do that? To show the apostles that he has a body just like theirs although resurrected. I don't think it gets any clearer than that.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

MUnless you know what spirit is by Biblical definition what are you saying when you say that God is spirit? If the Bible does not say what spirit is, how can you say?

Thus Marvin concludes God is spirit = God has a body of flesh and bones.

Folks this is Mormon reasoning and how they rationalize in their own minds to make their theology mesh with the Bible.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Thus Marvin concludes God is spirit = God has a body of flesh and bones.

Folks this is Mormon reasoning and how they rationalize in their own minds to make their theology mesh with the Bible.

Mormons must rationalize many things away, deny and redefine. Otherwise they will be forced to admit mormonism is a false religion.

Sandra Tanner, a relative of Brigham Young, once wrote that she had confronted lds about this. Someone high up on the mormon hierarchy asked her to stop. He said to let the mormons have their lie. Since they are comfortable, why rock the boat?

Sad, very sad considering that one's salvation is at stake.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Mormons must rationalize many things away, deny and redefine. Otherwise they will be forced to admit mormonism is a false religion.

I'm not the one who has to rationalize anything away. You say that the Bible says that no man can see God. All I do is point out Exodus 24 where it says that many men saw God at the same time. I am the one defending the Bible. You are the attacking it. Why don't you believe the Bible?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Sandra Tanner, a relative of Brigham Young, once wrote that she had confronted lds about this. Someone high up on the mormon hierarchy asked her to stop. He said to let the mormons have their lie. Since they are comfortable, why rock the boat?

And Sandra Tanner's relationship to BY is her claim to authority? I find that ridiculous.

And you reference to 'someone high up on the mormon hierarchy' is a real knee slapper. This anecdote screams very loudly 'This is a lie'

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Sad, very sad considering that one's salvation is at stake.

What does the Bible say about liars?

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

You say that the Bible says that no man can see God. All I do is point out Exodus 24 where it says that many men saw God at the same time. I am the one defending the Bible. You are the attacking it. Why don't you believe the Bible?

Hey Marvin I answered your question. I guess you are not reading my posts. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand. What you don't know won't hurt you.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by apexviper

In other words when people say God is spirit they're actually saying He's the center because He is our Heavenly Father, not that He's actually just a spirit.

No when we Believe the Bible.. We actually accept the Biblical truth that God is Spirit.. That a spirit hasn't flesh and bone as Jesus has.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No when we Believe the Bible.. We actually accept the Biblical truth that God is Spirit.. That a spirit hasn't flesh and bone as Jesus has.. IHS jim

Knowing what spirit is not does not help us understand what spirit really is. Spirit is also not a car and it is not a star. But the real question is what is spirit?. Until you can answer this question, when you say that God is spirit you really haven't said anything. It doesn't help us to understand God more and that is the real problem when you don't know what spirit is.

When you say that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, you have another problem: Does that mean that a spirit has a form like man because the apostles mistook Christ to be a spirit?

We need to know the Biblical definition of what a spirit is before we can say anything more about God. Without the Biblical definition of spirit,you don't know anything more about God than before. God is not a car either but that is not helpful.

Marvin