What is Spirit?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Knowing what spirit is not does not help us understand what spirit really is. Spirit is also not a car and it is not a star. But the real question is what is spirit?. Until you can answer this question, when you say that God is spirit you really haven't said anything. It doesn't help us to understand God more and that is the real problem when you don't know what spirit is.

When you say that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, you have another problem: Does that mean that a spirit has a form like man because the apostles mistook Christ to be a spirit?

We need to know the Biblical definition of what a spirit is before we can say anything more about God. Without the Biblical definition of spirit,you don't know anything more about God than before. God is not a car either but that is not helpful.

Marvin

I have given you what the Bible has said about it without injecting my opinion.. You don't like what the Bible teaches then admit that you believe God is inadequate and fall headlong into error and atheism.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Knowing what spirit is not does not help us understand what spirit really is.

Sure it helps us understand Marvin. That is a completely false statement.

Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

If a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones THEN it does not flesh and bones like you presume.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have given you what the Bible has said about it without injecting my opinion.. You don't like what the Bible teaches then admit that you believe God is inadequate and fall headlong into error and atheism.. IHS jim

But the Bible doesn't teach us anything about what a spirit is. That is the problem. All you have shown is what a spirit is not; something that was already known.

Its you who doesn't like what the Bible teaches. You keep trying to add your own opinion as if it were fact and Biblical. The problem is there are no verse to support your opinions; if there were you would have posted them long ago.

The fact is, all your claims for what a spirit is is not Biblical. When you say the God is spirit, you don't have a single verse to support what you claim that means. All you have is one verse that says that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Which doesn't help us understand what a spirit is.

Say what you want but anything you attempt to say about God being a spirit means nothing because the Bible says nothing about what a spirit is.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

But the Bible doesn't teach us anything about what a spirit is. That is the problem.

Marvin maybe a snippet from the LDS "Friend" may help you understand this a little bit better. Just think of the spirit as your hand and your physical body with flesh and bones as a glove.

Linda Magleby, "Sharing Time: I Can Repent and Be Happy", Friend, Apr. 2006, 14–16

". . .Using a glove, teach the children about resurrection. Show your hand without the glove and tell the children that before we came to earth we were spirits. We could move, think, choose, and learn. When we came to earth we each received a body (put hand in glove). We can still move, think, choose, and learn, but now we have wonderful bodies to take care of. When we die, the body and the spirit separate (take off the glove). The body can no longer move, but our spirit still lives. When we are resurrected, our body and our spirit are together again (put on glove), and the body and the spirit will never be separated again. . ."

[Billyray]

D and C 130
22The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Hey Marvin you know what a spirit is you are just trying to buffalo us. Look at the description for HG in your D and C.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

The claim is made that God the Father is spirit, and the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well are used to back this up.

I understand the verse but I don't understand what spirit is. Can anyone provide any Biblical verses to show what Spirit is? And don't tell me what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection. I don't need to know what a spirit is not. I want to know what a spirit is.

Anyone?

Marvin

I'm not sure it can be shown, absolutely, from the Bible. From taking into consideration all that I have learned from the Bible and other places, I would define spirit as "essence". It seems to be the force or fire of life.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm not sure it can be shown, absolutely, from the Bible. From taking into consideration all that I have learned from the Bible and other places, I would define spirit as "essence". It seems to be the force or fire of life.

But the Wolf insists on a Biblical reference and all that the Bible tells us has been given to him.. He rejects those references because none tell us what a spirit is.. Jesus tells us what a Spirit isn't.. He also tells us that God is Spirit. But even with the pronouncements that God is Spirit, that He is invisible, Marvin still insists that his church is right and the word of God is a lie? If my pastor came to me and said that he has a set of tasks for me to do and when I was done I would have complete confidence that I was going to be with Jesus in heaven, I would tell him:
1. That he was a cultist.
2. That he is teaching error
3. That according to the Bible salvation is a gift of God's grace.
And most importantly
4. If he didn't resign as the teaching elder of the church and the board of elder sustained him in that position I would no longer be a member of that church..

When a man insist that he is right and the word of God is in error he has no right to be in leadership in the Church of God.. Joseph Smith had no right to leadership and least of all to call Himself a prophet of God.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

But the Bible doesn't teach us anything about what a spirit is. That is the problem. All you have shown is what a spirit is not; something that was already known.

Its you who doesn't like what the Bible teaches. You keep trying to add your own opinion as if it were fact and Biblical. The problem is there are no verse to support your opinions; if there were you would have posted them long ago.

The fact is, all your claims for what a spirit is is not Biblical. When you say the God is spirit, you don't have a single verse to support what you claim that means. All you have is one verse that says that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Which doesn't help us understand what a spirit is.

Say what you want but anything you attempt to say about God being a spirit means nothing because the Bible says nothing about what a spirit is.

Marvin

I add nothing to what is spoken of in the Bible.. Did Jesus or did He not say that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone? Did He or did He not teach that God is Spirit? Those are not my inventions.. I never taught a thing about the nature of God that is NOT in the Bible.. I was one that said that the Bible doesn't define what a spirit is.. You kept insisting that I tell you what it said about a spirit.. I gave you all the information I could find but the Spirit told me one additional fact that the Bible teaches, that is that God is invisible.. Since He is Spirit, spirits are therefore invisible.. These are Biblical facts not personal inventions..

I leave personal inventions to people who pervert the teachings of the Bible. That deny these biblical truths. People like Joseph Smith that taught that God has a body as tangible as man's.. That is a perversion of the Bible.. That God was once a man and lived on an earth the same as Jesus did.. That is a perversion of the Bible. That God was not always God but obtained that position through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.. That is also a perversion of the Bible.. Then you, who believe all these perversions, tell me that I am adding my opinion to the word.. And you wonder why I say you have a LOG in your eye.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I add nothing to what is spoken of in the Bible.. Did Jesus or did He not say that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone?

As I have pointed out many times, telling me what a spirit isn't doesn't help. I want to know what the Bible says a spirit is. If you can't tell me that, then you can't tell me what God is if you really believe that God is spirit. How can you claim to know God if you don't know what the Bible says spirit is?

Originally Posted by James Banta

Did He or did He not teach that God is Spirit?

But what does that mean? If you can't tell me what the Bible says Spirit is, what does that mean. Until you can tell me what the Bible says spirit is, then this means nothing.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Those are not my inventions.. I never taught a thing about the nature of God that is NOT in the Bible..

You claim that Christ is still on the cross because he is beyond time and space. That is what you have claimed about God. But until you can provide a Biblical teaching about what spirit is, you can't even say this. If God is spirit and the Bible provides no definition of what spirit is, then this beyond space and time thing is only your convoluted logic attempting to read a conclusion you already believed.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I was one that said that the Bible doesn't define what a spirit is.. You kept insisting that I tell you what it said about a spirit.. I gave you all the information I could find but the Spirit told me one additional fact that the Bible teaches, that is that God is invisible.. Since He is Spirit, spirits are therefore invisible.. These are Biblical facts not personal inventions..

I don't quite see the jump from spirit to invisibility. The could be many reasons why God is invisible without resorting to because he is spirit. When Christ appeared to the apostles they thought they were seeing a spirit. Thus, we have an indication that spirits aren't exactly invisible. And Christ did not contract did that aspect of their belief. All he did is point out what a spirit is not.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I leave personal inventions to people who pervert the teachings of the Bible. That deny these biblical truths. People like Joseph Smith that taught that God has a body as tangible as man's.. That is a perversion of the Bible.. That God was once a man and lived on an earth the same as Jesus did.. That is a perversion of the Bible. That God was not always God but obtained that position through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.. That is also a perversion of the Bible.. Then you, who believe all these perversions, tell me that I am adding my opinion to the word.. And you wonder why I say you have a LOG in your eye.. IHS jim

That God is beyond space and time, that is a perversion of the Bible. Christ told his apostles that he had a body of flesh and bones to contradict that is a perversion of the Bible. The scriptures tell the story of this earth and nothing more. Any statement by God in the Bible relates only to this earth. Before this earth is eternity as the ancient Hebrew believed it not as the Greeks defined it. The Bible is silent on things that might have happened before this earth was created. And it is more than just vague about what happens after the judgement. But the Bible is very clear about what is required for salvation here and now.

Most of what you have said about God that you believe to be true, comes from Greek philosophy mingled with scripture. It was first said by Greek philosophers and their student before it became part of Christian theology.

I say, let the blind lead the blind and they shall both fall in a ditch.

If the Bible has not definition about what spirit is, then that leaves a really big hole in our understanding of who and what God is. And that leaves us without salvation because Christ told us:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast esent.

If we can't know what God is and this scripture is true, then we don't have eternal life. That means that that the Bible is lacking in something essential to our salvation.

Marvin

[dfoJC]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

And I will say it again, we agree far more than you believe.

And I will to say again, that you have not provided a Bibical definition of what spirit is.

Marvin

Hi again Marvin, I am not sure then based on your above statement that you are really wanting to define what "spirit" is.

Doesn't this verse clearly say that the "spirit" are His words? Does it not say that the "spirit" makes alive? How can this not be a definition? Or do you reject this simply because you don't agree?

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.

Perhaps you are looking for something more?

Take care,
dfoJC

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

As I have pointed out many times, telling me what a spirit isn't doesn't help. I want to know what the Bible says a spirit is. If you can't tell me that, then you can't tell me what God is if you really believe that God is spirit. How can you claim to know God if you don't know what the Bible says spirit is?




But what does that mean? If you can't tell me what the Bible says Spirit is, what does that mean. Until you can tell me what the Bible says spirit is, then this means nothing.




You claim that Christ is still on the cross because he is beyond time and space. That is what you have claimed about God. But until you can provide a Biblical teaching about what spirit is, you can't even say this. If God is spirit and the Bible provides no definition of what spirit is, then this beyond space and time thing is only your convoluted logic attempting to read a conclusion you already believed.



I don't quite see the jump from spirit to invisibility. The could be many reasons why God is invisible without resorting to because he is spirit. When Christ appeared to the apostles they thought they were seeing a spirit. Thus, we have an indication that spirits aren't exactly invisible. And Christ did not contract did that aspect of their belief. All he did is point out what a spirit is not.




That God is beyond space and time, that is a perversion of the Bible. Christ told his apostles that he had a body of flesh and bones to contradict that is a perversion of the Bible. The scriptures tell the story of this earth and nothing more. Any statement by God in the Bible relates only to this earth. Before this earth is eternity as the ancient Hebrew believed it not as the Greeks defined it. The Bible is silent on things that might have happened before this earth was created. And it is more than just vague about what happens after the judgement. But the Bible is very clear about what is required for salvation here and now.

Most of what you have said about God that you believe to be true, comes from Greek philosophy mingled with scripture. It was first said by Greek philosophers and their student before it became part of Christian theology.

I say, let the blind lead the blind and they shall both fall in a ditch.

If the Bible has not definition about what spirit is, then that leaves a really big hole in our understanding of who and what God is. And that leaves us without salvation because Christ told us:



If we can't know what God is and this scripture is true, then we don't have eternal life. That means that that the Bible is lacking in something essential to our salvation.

Marvin

I have told you but you won't hear me (How many times did Jesus say that about people that didn't believe in Him).. A spirit is known only as taught in the Bible.. It is invisible. It was created within us.. God is Such a Being.. Just because you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches in this matter doesn't change the truth that is in the Word or the truth that God is. Here is one more explanation for you..
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
A Spirit is that which God creates within us, filling us, causing us to be a living soul.. Deny that.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Actually James you are the one who is refusing to believe what the Bible teaches. You have yet to address the fact that the apostle thought they saw a spirit when Christ appeared to them. You can't simply say that a spirit is invisible when Christ did not correct them and say that they couldn't be seeing a spirit because a spirit is invisible. Christ told them that a spirit does not have flesh and bones as he (Christ) had.

No matter how many times you say that a spirit is invisible, Luke contradicts you every time. When you can address this scripture in a way that does not compromise what it says, this discussion can continue. Until then you have an apparent contradiction to deal with. Is a spirit really invisible because God is invisible or is there something else that you have not considered?

Marvin

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have told you but you won't hear me (How many times did Jesus say that about people that didn't believe in Him).. A spirit is known only as taught in the Bible.. It is invisible. It was created within us.. God is Such a Being.. Just because you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches in this matter doesn't change the truth that is in the Word or the truth that God is. Here is one more explanation for you..
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
A Spirit is that which God creates within us, filling us, causing us to be a living soul.. Deny that.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

Hi again Marvin, I am not sure then based on your above statement that you are really wanting to define what "spirit" is.

Doesn't this verse clearly say that the "spirit" are His words? Does it not say that the "spirit" makes alive? How can this not be a definition? Or do you reject this simply because you don't agree?

Describing what a spirit does or can do, does not tell us what it is. I can tell you that I am a computer programmer, but then so are many people. What does that tell you about what I am? Nothing. It describes actions that I perform, but that is not what I am.

Originally Posted by dfoJC

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.

Perhaps you are looking for something more?

As I have asked, I am looking for a Biblical definition of what a spirit is. Describing what a spirit does, is not a definition of what a spirit is.


Marvin

[Libby]

If we can't know what God is and this scripture is true, then we don't have eternal life. That means that that the Bible is lacking in something essential to our salvation.

Yes, I understand this is your bottom line, but I don't think we need to (or CAN) understand God's essence. What is more important to our salvation is to understand God's love...his character and nature. Our salvation sprang from a recognition of his great love..not from a complete understanding of what it means to be "spirit". Yes?

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

As I have pointed out many times, telling me what a spirit isn't doesn't help. I want to know what the Bible says a spirit is. If you can't tell me that, then you can't tell me what God is if you really believe that God is spirit. How can you claim to know God if you don't know what the Bible says spirit is?




But what does that mean? If you can't tell me what the Bible says Spirit is, what does that mean. Until you can tell me what the Bible says spirit is, then this means nothing.


You claim that Christ is still on the cross because he is beyond time and space. That is what you have claimed about God. But until you can provide a Biblical teaching about what spirit is, you can't even say this. If God is spirit and the Bible provides no definition of what spirit is, then this beyond space and time thing is only your convoluted logic attempting to read a conclusion you already believed.



I don't quite see the jump from spirit to invisibility. The could be many reasons why God is invisible without resorting to because he is spirit. When Christ appeared to the apostles they thought they were seeing a spirit. Thus, we have an indication that spirits aren't exactly invisible. And Christ did not contract did that aspect of their belief. All he did is point out what a spirit is not.




That God is beyond space and time, that is a perversion of the Bible. Christ told his apostles that he had a body of flesh and bones to contradict that is a perversion of the Bible. The scriptures tell the story of this earth and nothing more. Any statement by God in the Bible relates only to this earth. Before this earth is eternity as the ancient Hebrew believed it not as the Greeks defined it. The Bible is silent on things that might have happened before this earth was created. And it is more than just vague about what happens after the judgement. But the Bible is very clear about what is required for salvation here and now.

Most of what you have said about God that you believe to be true, comes from Greek philosophy mingled with scripture. It was first said by Greek philosophers and their student before it became part of Christian theology.

I say, let the blind lead the blind and they shall both fall in a ditch.

If the Bible has not definition about what spirit is, then that leaves a really big hole in our understanding of who and what God is. And that leaves us without salvation because Christ told us:



If we can't know what God is and this scripture is true, then we don't have eternal life. That means that that the Bible is lacking in something essential to our salvation.

Marvin

We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life. Jesus told us how to have eternal life many times. Christ alone is the way to salvation.

The problem is Marvin, you want the Holy Bible to spell everything out in no uncertain terms. God chooses to reveal only what He wants about Himself. Jesus didn't go around saying in specific words that He was God. He asked the people who they believed He was. Its faith that pleases God. Thomas finally understood this when the Holy Spirit revealed it to him that Jesus is God and Lord. The Bible is clear that God does not have a body of flesh and bone/blood. You won't find that anywhere in all of Scripture. If someone shows you what a spirit is not, then the opposite is true: God does not have a body. He's immaterial, non tangible, invisible. Joe Smith shows up and says God has a body and you believe him. Where is the evidence? One man's word is all you have.

The lds wants a God that is more human, more like us. But He never was and never will be. God told us that in His word. He is the Holy, Eternal, Uncreated. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Heb. 11:1,3)

Bottom line: it takes faith to believe in God, not using your naked eye or human reasoning. You have been given the scriptures which say God is invisible but still you refuse to believe. I think you want Mormonism more that you reject all scripture that conflicts with the teachings of your church. You are like doubting Thomas who refused to believe until he could touch the wounds and see with his own eyes. But Jesus said more blessed are those who have not seen, but believe.

You can't make the jump from what Smith said to what the Bible says because you have listened to Smith for so long that it seems true to you. This is why you struggle with God being invisible and outside of time. This is not a perversion of the Bible. Read it again: A thousand years is like a day to God, and a day is like a thousand years. God is not confined to 24 hour days.

[Knox]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life.

Excellent! Then LDS people do not have to know that God is 3 persons in one being in order to be saved. Right?

[Knox]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No one will ever be able to give you what you insist on having..

He insists on having important spiritual info. Info you say the Bible does not have. What do you think about this fact? Do you think that the Bible once did have this essential info, but it got deleted at some point in the history of the Bible? Or do you think that God never wanted people to know this info, so He deliberately kept it out of the Bible from day one?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I understand this is your bottom line, but I don't think we need to (or CAN) understand God's essence. What is more important to our salvation is to understand God's love...his character and nature. Our salvation sprang from a recognition of his great love..not from a complete understanding of what it means to be "spirit". Yes?

You, like the others, are compromising the Bible. You refuse to allow the Bible to define itself but insist on compromising it so that it can be explained in terms that agree with what you already believe. And you criticize us for our belief that the translations are not perfect.

Marvin

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Knox

Excellent! Then LDS people do not have to know that God is 3 persons in one being in order to be saved. Right?

It doesn't sound like you understand what Jesus Christ meant when he told us we MUST be born-again or we cannot see the kingdom of God. Nor do you understand that Jesus Christ alone is the way to salvation.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

You, like the others, are compromising the Bible. You refuse to allow the Bible to define itself but insist on compromising it so that it can be explained in terms that agree with what you already believe. And you criticize us for our belief that the translations are not perfect.

Marvin

You show a lack of respect for the Holy Bible by denying its the very word of God. God said He alone is God, there are no others. One day you will stand before God to give an account and you will answer to why you believed in a different gospel filled with zillions of gods. when God almighty told YOU there aren't any anywhere!!

Explain to Him why you chose to be polytheistic. Abraham believed in one God and it was declared as righteousness. You will not stand before God innocent.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life. Jesus told us how to have eternal life many times. Christ alone is the way to salvation.

And now you are denying the Bible. The scripture says:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Why do you compromise the Bible? Why does the Bible have to be explained rather than undestood? Why don't you simply believe the Bible?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

The problem is Marvin, you want the Holy Bible to spell everything out in no uncertain terms.

And here I thought you were using that very at***ude to prove LDS doctrine was wrong. After all, don't you say that LDS doctrine is wrong because it is not in the Bible? You want the Bible to spell it out or it is false. Where the Bible speaks you speak, where the Bible is silent your are silent and anyone who speaks where the Bible is silent is absolutely and complete wrong. Isn't that your at***ude? Tell that to Noah, or Moses. I think they might have an at***udinal correction for you.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

God chooses to reveal only what He wants about Himself.

And John 17:3 reveals a very important fact about salvation. And you, who believes that God is spirit, are lacking the ability to know God because the Bible doesn't have a definition of what spirit is. Why would God set you up for failure like this?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Jesus didn't go around saying in specific words that He was God. He asked the people who they believed He was.

And when Peter told him, Christ said that flesh and blood (a living mortal man, sorta like Christ) had not revealed it to him. Christ relied the Father to witness to those who wanted to believe, exactly who Christ was and Peter was one of those who wanted to believe.

Matthew 16:13¶When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Its faith that pleases God. Thomas finally understood this when the Holy Spirit revealed it to him that Jesus is God and Lord.

We aren't talking about faith here, Erik. Try to stay focused.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

The Bible is clear that God does not have a body of flesh and bone/blood. You won't find that anywhere in all of Scripture.

And yet Christ was born of a woman like any other man thus obtained a body of flesh and blood. He lived as a man with all the trials and stresses of having a body. He died and they buried his body of flesh and blood and on the third day he arose from the dead with a body of flesh and bones. And you are trying to tell me that God does not have a body. Does that mean you don't believe Christ was resurrected?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

If someone shows you what a spirit is not, then the opposite is true: God does not have a body.

As I have pointed out many, many times. What a spirit isn't doesn't help. A spirit is also not a bug, nor is it a bird. All of which does not help us understand what a spirit is. And your statements have a sum value of nothing.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

He's immaterial, non tangible, invisible.

How do you know this if the Bible does not tell you that this is what a spirit is. Where does the Bible say a spirit is immaterial. That is an old medeval belief and it has not more basis in Biblical doctrine than the flat earth. How do you know it is non tangible? Where in the Bible did you get that idea? How can you know this if the Bible does not tell you so. As I learned in Bible Summer Camp, Jesus Loves Me Because the Bible Tells Me So. But you are revealing that you know more than the Bible? Are you above the Bible? Are you equal with God that you can say something is true that the Bible does not say?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Joe Smith shows up and says God has a body and you believe him. Where is the evidence? One man's word is all you have.

Stay focused, Erick, we are talking about what a spirit is not about what Joseph Smith say.

And please note, that even you should believe that Christ has a body. Are you now revealing that you believe in two Gods, one with a body and one without?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

The lds wants a God that is more human, more like us.

I reject your claim that we want a God who more human. We want a God who is our father, really our father which makes us more like him and does not make him more like us. LDS doctrine raises man a little higher but does not lessen or reduce God.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

But He never was and never will be.

You claim that is without Biblical evidence.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

God told us that in His word. He is the Holy, Eternal, Uncreated.

There is no uncreated doctrine in the Bible. This is a creation of the Greek philosophers that was adopted by the Christian leadership when they lost direct revelation from God.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Heb. 11:1,3)

Focus Erik. We are talking about spirit not faith. And you have a rather paradox to solve. Why would Christ say that to know God is life eternal and then fail to tell you what spirit is since, if what you believe is true, thus denying you salvation. Or do you believe that Christ was lying? Are you telling me that you deny what Christ said in the Bible? Are you casting doubt on the veracity of the Bible?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Bottom line: it takes faith to believe in God, not using your naked eye or human reasoning. You have been given the scriptures which say God is invisible but still you refuse to believe.

I don't refuse to believe, but I don't accept what you say without thinking about it first. And I have thought about it and I know you are wrong. God is invisible because he choses to be.

I have provided you with quotes from the Bible where people have seen God and you have refused to believe the Bible. I don't care if you don't believe me, but for someone who says that his beliefs are Biblically based, I find that you refuse to believe the quotes I have provided an earthshattering revelation. You only believe what you want to believe and reject the rest. Very revealing Erik, very revealing.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

I think you want Mormonism more that you reject all scripture that conflicts with the teachings of your church.

I have not rejected any scriptures. I have provided simple explanations. I don't rely on convoluted logic to provide my explanation. Something you haven't done.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

You are like doubting Thomas who refused to believe until he could touch the wounds and see with his own eyes. But Jesus said more blessed are those who have not seen, but believe.

For someone who claims he believes in the Bible and only believes what the Bible tells him to believe, you are creating a fantastic amount of non-Biblcal beliefs. Sorta like what you accuse the LDS of doing. Ready to join us?

Originally Posted by ErikErik

You can't make the jump from what Smith said to what the Bible says because you have listened to Smith for so long that it seems true to you.

Again, you are completely and totally wrong. I see a perfect harmony between the two and I have shown you that harmony in the explanations I have provided.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

This is why you struggle with God being invisible and outside of time.

You have no Biblical basis for these beliefs. None whatsoever. And yet, find fault with me for not believing them. I guess you really do believe you are God.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

This is not a perversion of the Bible. Read it again: A thousand years is like a day to God, and a day is like a thousand years. God is not confined to 24 hour days.

As I pointed out before, God is immortal and does not measure time as we do. Your explanation is a private one that has no basis in the Bible.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

You wrest the scriptures unto you own destruction.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

You show a lack of respect for the Holy Bible by denying its the very word of God. God said He alone is God, there are no others. One day you will stand before God to give an account and you will answer to why you believed in a different gospel filled with zillions of gods. when God almighty told YOU there aren't any anywhere!!

Explain to Him why you chose to be polytheistic. Abraham believed in one God and it was declared as righteousness. You will not stand before God innocent.

Focus Erik. We are talking about what Spirit is. You keep creating these rabbit trails and you will lose your mind.

Marvin

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Actually James you are the one who is refusing to believe what the Bible teaches. You have yet to address the fact that the apostle thought they saw a spirit when Christ appeared to them. You can't simply say that a spirit is invisible when Christ did not correct them and say that they couldn't be seeing a spirit because a spirit is invisible. Christ told them that a spirit does not have flesh and bones as he (Christ) had.

No matter how many times you say that a spirit is invisible, Luke contradicts you every time. When you can address this scripture in a way that does not compromise what it says, this discussion can continue. Until then you have an apparent contradiction to deal with. Is a spirit really invisible because God is invisible or is there something else that you have not considered?

Marvin

I don't understand why you would say I am denying the scripture by saying that if Jesus said that God is Spirit that he would be invisible. Does the Bible not teach that Jesus is the image of the invisible God?

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

It isn't me that is denying the scripture here.. It would seem as if anyone that denies that the Father is the invisible God is doing that..

Because the Apostles believed in ghosts is not a fault in Jesus or in God, they were WRONG. As wrong as anyone that would say or teach that "the Father has a body as tangible as man's"..

So if God is Spirit and invisible, it isn't a giant leap to understand that a Spirit is invisible.. That leads to the question of Luke, in the Christmas story.. Are Angels spirits or are they some other sort of spiritual creation.. I would say since an angel can be revealed to the eyes and minds of men that they are not spirits.. I don't recall one reference in the Bible where an angel said they were a spirit.. There is no reference in the Bible where they are called a spirit..

Jesus did correct the apostles that believed Jesus to be a spirit.. He said that spirits didn't have flesh and bone.. He said nothing about the nature of angels.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I don't understand why you would say I am denying the scripture by saying that if Jesus said that God is Spirit that he would be invisible. Does the Bible not teach that Jesus is the image of the invisible God?

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

It isn't me that is denying the scripture here.. It would seem as if anyone that denies that the Father is the invisible God is doing that..

If Christ is in the image of the invisible God, then the invisible God must have an image that is not invisible, else there would be no image for Christ to be in. So by the very verse you quote, it implies that God the Father is not invisible just not seen by us at this time. Probably because God the Father chooses to not be seen.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Because the Apostles believed in ghosts is not a fault in Jesus or in God, they were WRONG. As wrong as anyone that would say or teach that "the Father has a body as tangible as man's"..

But Christ didn't contradict that belief. In fact, he told them there was a difference between him and a spirit, confiming that what they believed about spirit was true but there was a difference with Christ. So the apostles were not wrong. They were correct.

Originally Posted by James Banta

So if God is Spirit and invisible,

You have not established that God is invisible because he is spirit. You have only established that is is invisible and that he is spirit. Since Christ did not tell the apostles that spirits were invisible, you have one count against that belief. Do you have any other verse that talks about spirits? If not, we have to conclude that spirits are not invisible.

Originally Posted by James Banta

it isn't a giant leap to understand that a Spirit is invisible..

Sorry, but you have not evidence to make this conclusion.

Originally Posted by James Banta

That leads to the question of Luke, in the Christmas story.. Are Angels spirits or are they some other sort of spiritual creation.. I would say since an angel can be revealed to the eyes and minds of men that they are not spirits.. I don't recall one reference in the Bible where an angel said they were a spirit.. There is no reference in the Bible where they are called a spirit..

Jesus did correct the apostles that believed Jesus to be a spirit.. He said that spirits didn't have flesh and bone.. He said nothing about the nature of angels.. IHS jim

And he said nothing about spirits being invisible either, which contradicts your attempt to equal spirits with being invisible.

Marvin

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

You, like the others, are compromising the Bible. You refuse to allow the Bible to define itself but insist on compromising it so that it can be explained in terms that agree with what you already believe. And you criticize us for our belief that the translations are not perfect.

Marvin

Not sure what you mean. The Bible says, God is love. You are right that there is not a very clear definition of "spirit", in the Bible. Not quite understanding why you believe this is critical to salvation.

I don't criticize anyone for believing the "translations are not perfect". I don't believe that any of the translations are perfect, myself (and neither do most Christians). I'm not really in the "inerrant" camp, either.

I probably shouldn't have entered this conversation. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I just thought you brought up an interesting question and I wasn putting in my two cents, for what it's worth.