What is Spirit?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Telling me that a girl is not a boy, doesn't tell me very much about what a girl is. And telling me that a spirit does not have flesh and bones does not tell me what a spirit is.

I have asked you several times to show me from the Bible whether God is invisible by nature or by choice. You have not done this either. Yes, as you claim, Christ did say that God is spirit and in another place it says that God is invisible. But is God invisible because spirit is invisible or is God invisible because he chooses to be? This is important because if God is invisible by nature, then there is no chance of ever seeing him, inspite of what Christ said about the pure in heart seeing God. If God is invisible by choice, then he can reveal himself and then spirit is not invisible.

But you have not provided any scriptures to say one way or another. And yet you still maintain that God is invisible. I cannot go against the scripture but neither can I agree with what you are attempting to say because the nature/choice question have not been resolved.

You claim that man and God are not the same. You claim that one is created and the other uncreated. And yet here you speculate (with no Biblical support) that man and God are in fact similar. How can they be similar if they are so different. Is a created spirit the same as an uncreated spirit? Do you have a Biblical references that supports your claim? If not, then you have just created an extra-Biblical doctrine. Or is it a heresy? I guess that depends on whether you agree with it or not.

You haven't shown me that God has said anything about the subject. How can I submit to what you haven't shown me?


And here I agree with you. I hope you can show me something from the Bible that will resolve this issue.

Marvin

I have given you what the Bible says about the nature of spirit.. Unlike you I don't invent doctrines based on unbiblical writings of mere men.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

James,

It is impossible to follow what you have posted here. You make claims about what I have said but I don't see what you are responding to. Try dividing the post into two parts so that you can include the original post. I am unable to respond to this post in a coherent fashion because I can't follow what you said without seeing the original post. Try again and divide it into two post.

Marvin

I am not responsible for your inability to understand.. Think harder.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Marvin wants proof straight from the Bible that a spirit is invisible. I have given him 2 references that refers to God as invisible, yet it doesn't suffice for him. Yet he and you and all lds have beliefs that are not in the bible. Why do you believe those things? Why do you take a man's word over almighty God's?

And your references don't say that spirit is invisible. All you have is a reference to the invisible God and a reference that says God is spirit in the middle of a discussion of temple worship. You have not found the scripture that ties the two together. You haven't found a scripture that says that spirit is invisible but I have shown you that God being invisible is God's choice not God's nature because Christ promised the pure in heart that they would see God.

You have failed to make your case but I have used scriptures to make mine.

I have succeeded in proving that God is invisible by choice not by nature.

Marvin

[Knox]

(LDS people need to know that God is 3 persons in one being, in order for those LDS people to be saved. True, or false?)

Originally Posted by ErikErik

TRUE. Unless you believe in the God of the Holy Scriptures and the One true Jesus Christ, who is GOD, then you worship a false god and christ. a false god and christ saves no one.

But the Jews don't worship some 3-person being. If you ask them "Do you worship Jesus Christ?" they will say "No." So, using your reasoning, do Jews worship a false god? Seems like you have to answer "yes."

You don't even know who God is Knox.

You don't. You believe certain things about God that make it apparent that the real God is not much like what you believe. I believe that God is a kind, wise, fair-minded, loving, merciful, powerful parent. That is who I believe God is.

You have stated (when you answered "true") that I need to know WHAT God is or else I can't be saved. Yet you have also stated that

"We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life."

You have just been caught being duplicitous. Congratulations.

You believe he was once a man like you.

Isn't that a "what" statement?

We don't have to know what God is, but who He is.

Then why did you say that it is "True" that LDS people need to know that God is 3 persons in one being, in order for those LDS people to be saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Knox

But the Jews don't worship some 3-person being.

The Jews don't believe in Christ either. Are they right?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I think that is a good description. God always is and we were created by Him.. That is a huge differs greatly in "the method by which they come about"..

But in the case of diamonds (and this is where your ****ogy fails completely) they are both created.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Just so you know the topic here in "What is Spirit" the way that spirit comes to be is on that topic.. I agree with what the Bible teaches that God "formeth the spirit of man within him". Mormonism teaches that God formed the spirits of mam as a result of a creative act of himself and a goddess in some part of creation that existed before our bodies existed. Tell me that is a private interpretation.. I would love to see you deny your church's doctrine..

The Bible says that God 'formeth' it does not say that God 'createth' the spirit of man within him.

We have no scripture that says how spirit are created. We only know that they are created from what is refered to as intelligence. Every thing you said about spirits is your own private interpretation based on the understanding of men who were speculating. Surely you knew this!!!???

Originally Posted by James Banta

Please show where I have interpreted the p***age at all.. It says, as I have already quoted, that God formeth the spirit of man within him. If someone is making an interpretation of the p***age it is you, not me.. All I am doing is quoting it..

And you are ***uming that forms means the same as create. That is your interpretation. My understanding differs. If God formed but did not create the spirit of man within him, then it had to exist before it was formed within man. For your interpretation to be true, form would have to be the same as create which it is not. You form something from something else. That is not an act of creation as God would do for your interpretation to be true.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Because I know what the Bible says and where it says it the idea of me being a student of the Bible rubs you the wrong way.. I have shown you here that what I do is quote the Bible.. You seem to be the one interpreting it.. Or should I say twist it to try to support a private interpretation? When the Bible explains to us the nature of spirit you demand the chemical make up of that spirit.. What is given isn't enough for you.. It's time that confess that you are aligned with God haters and have the same mind set as they do.. IHS jim

You must be right because you just said so. NOT!

You have to interpret the Bible otherwise you will not understand it. I know that the Bible says something, but once you attempt to explain to me what it means you have to interpret it. So your claim of not interpreting the scripture is false.

If anyone is aligning with the God haters, it must be you. You are not showing what you believe in meekness and humility as Peter said you should. All you have is what is not true, but you fail to show what is true in meekness and humility.

I have asked very simple questions and attempted to keep you on topic. You have failed to provide any scriptures that answers any of the questions that I have asked. All you have is bluster. I have shown that God is invisible by choice and I have pointed out that if what you believe is true, then God has left a gaping hole in your salvation by not at the very least telling us what spirit is so we can know God as John 17:3 says is Life Eternal.

How can asking questions make me a God hater. You have used this tactic before. It failed then and it will fail now. Name calling is not a valid debating technique.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Name calling is not a valid debating technique.

Marvin

Marvin you don't really want debate, you just want to spread your false doctrine at any cost.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I am not responsible for your inability to understand.. Think harder.. IHS jim

But you are because you removed my original post from your reply making it impossible to follow that you are replying to.

Next time, try leaving the original post in your reply and divide your reply into multiple parts. Its not that hard.

Marvin

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

But you are because you removed my original post from your reply making it impossible to follow that you are replying to.

Next time, try leaving the original post in your reply and divide your reply into multiple parts. Its not that hard.

Marvin

Your original question from your post has been addressed several time as to what the Bible has to say about the nature of a spirit.. You are just unwilling to submit to what God has revealed. You have to know the elements of a spirit.. Such things don't exist, that is they don't exist in the Biblical record.. What the make up of a spirit is is not important.. Know that a spirit is real and that God is Spirit is enough because that is what the scripture reveals.. All I have seen you do is complain that the Bible isn't adequate..

2 Cor 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The revelation of His nature is a grace given to man.. All you have done in this whole thread is to deny that this grace is NOT sufficient for you.. A denial of the word of God as given to men by the Holy Spirit.. That is pushing toward denial of the Holy Spirit.. Be careful.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Your original question from your post has been addressed several time as to what the Bible has to say about the nature of a spirit.. You are just unwilling to submit to what God has revealed.

But you haven't presented anything. How can I submit to what God has revealed when that is nothing? You have confirmed my own research, the Bible doesn't give us any idea what spirit is. Anyone who says that spirit is immaterial is not using the Bible. Anyone who says that spirit is everwhere present, is not getting that from the Bible. Everything we claim to know about spirit does not come from the Bible. That clearly means that the doctrine of spirit is speculation and guess work and has no basis in Biblical doctrine.

Originally Posted by James Banta

You have to know the elements of a spirit.. Such things don't exist, that is they don't exist in the Biblical record..

Then anything you attempt to say about spirit is not Biblical. Especialy when you attempt to say that our beliefs about spirit and God are incorrect, you have no Biblical doctrine on which to base that claim.

Originally Posted by James Banta

What the make up of a spirit is is not important..

But making up doctrine about spirit is important. And you and your friends make up quite a bit. Spirit is beyond space and time is only one idea that you claim is Biblical but I have shown that it is not. Simply by asking for a Biblical definition of spirit.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Know that a spirit is real and that God is Spirit is enough because that is what the scripture reveals..

But you claim much more than that for what spirit is.

Originally Posted by James Banta

All I have seen you do is complain that the Bible isn't adequate..

2 Cor 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The revelation of His nature is a grace given to man.. All you have done in this whole thread is to deny that this grace is NOT sufficient for you.. A denial of the word of God as given to men by the Holy Spirit.. That is pushing toward denial of the Holy Spirit.. Be careful.. IHS jim

I have denied nothing of the kind. I have struggled mightily to keep you on topic and you are still drifting off topic. You have tacitly admitted that you have no Biblical definition of what spirit it. You claim that God is spirit and that God has formed the spirit of man within him. The problem with this is you also claim that God and man are extremely different and have no scripture to show that this is so. You only claim that God is uncreated for which you have no scriptures, and that the spirit of man is created, and the scripture you have used for this is vague minimumly and contradicts your claim is we get to specifics. Because you believe that the spirits of God and men are so different, you cannot claim that what the Bible says about the spirit of God can be applied to the spirit of man. According to your beliefs the two are so different as to be disparate not similar.

One thing we have learned is that the Bible gives us no idea what spirit is. That destroys a number of things that people on this forum and others have attempted to say about spirit. They have no scriptural basis on which to base the things they say. It was Erik that said that spirit was immaterial but that cannot be supported by the Bible. There are others but surely you get the point.

Since the Bible says nothing about what spirit is, there is no possible Biblical doctrine of what spirit is.

Marvin

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

But you haven't presented anything. How can I submit to what God has revealed when that is nothing? You have confirmed my own research, the Bible doesn't give us any idea what spirit is. Anyone who says that spirit is immaterial is not using the Bible. Anyone who says that spirit is everwhere present, is not getting that from the Bible. Everything we claim to know about spirit does not come from the Bible. That clearly means that the doctrine of spirit is speculation and guess work and has no basis in Biblical doctrine.

Then anything you attempt to say about spirit is not Biblical. Especialy when you attempt to say that our beliefs about spirit and God are incorrect, you have no Biblical doctrine on which to base that claim.

But making up doctrine about spirit is important. And you and your friends make up quite a bit. Spirit is beyond space and time is only one idea that you claim is Biblical but I have shown that it is not. Simply by asking for a Biblical definition of spirit.

But you claim much more than that for what spirit is.


I have denied nothing of the kind. I have struggled mightily to keep you on topic and you are still drifting off topic. You have tacitly admitted that you have no Biblical definition of what spirit it. You claim that God is spirit and that God has formed the spirit of man within him. The problem with this is you also claim that God and man are extremely different and have no scripture to show that this is so. You only claim that God is uncreated for which you have no scriptures, and that the spirit of man is created, and the scripture you have used for this is vague minimumly and contradicts your claim is we get to specifics. Because you believe that the spirits of God and men are so different, you cannot claim that what the Bible says about the spirit of God can be applied to the spirit of man. According to your beliefs the two are so different as to be disparate not similar.

One thing we have learned is that the Bible gives us no idea what spirit is. That destroys a number of things that people on this forum and others have attempted to say about spirit. They have no scriptural basis on which to base the things they say. It was Erik that said that spirit was immaterial but that cannot be supported by the Bible. There are others but surely you get the point.

Since the Bible says nothing about what spirit is, there is no possible Biblical doctrine of what spirit is.

Marvin

Nope I haven't shown you a thing.. Only John 4:24, Luke 24:39, Romans 1:20, Col 1:15 (Verse 16 goes on to say that he created all invisible things. What are they? SPIRITS!!), 1 Tim 1:17, Heb 11:27.. That is nothing right.. That is what I hear you saying.. These p***ages are wrong because they don't agree with you.

Yeap saying that a Spirit is invisible, saying that A spirit is without flesh and bone.. All lies because you say so it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches.. It's corrupt.. We have to hear only the testimony of Joseph Smith.. That is truth, right? It doesn't matter that Smith had several versions of what he called the first vision some that don't even include Jesus much less the Father.. Did he really change the truth that the Church has held about the nature of God for almost 2,000 years? He changed nothing even through he did try to pervert that truth.. God is Spirit.. A spirit is a person without a body of flesh and bone, who is invisible.. That narrows down by a lot the definition of a spirit.. But none of that is Biblical.. Just because this doctrine is based on the Bible mean nothing, to you at least.

Making up doctrine about what a Spirit is is a teaching I leave for the cults.. I say no more tha I can find taught about in the Bible.. Mormonism as an example of this by saying that a Spirit is a being of flesh and bone as tangible as man's.. That is the doctrine made up in the mind of a man not what I have taught..

I claim nothing about the nature of God, or the nature of spirit that is not taught in the Bible.. I understand completely why you would ask. It is quite clear from your responses that you haven't any idea of the nature of either..

I have said there is no definition in the Bible that you will accept.. Just because your heart is so hardened against the revelation of God through Jesus given to us in his word doesn't mean that I reject that nor do I admit that it doesn't give a definition for what a spirit is.. It's just that you refuse the definition given..

I have no scripture to say that God is uncreated? Where have you been It's right there in Psalm 90:2. In short it says that God has been GOD from everlasting to everlasting.. Then Isaiah was told by God that there was never a God in existence other then Him.. Not one before and not one after.. You of course can't understand that this means that He is God and has always been so.. You actually have to understand the meaning of everlasting and Go God was formed to see what that is saying.. Then mormonism calls God dumb because He doesn't even know about the formation of other Gods, when it's so clear through Joseph Smith that there are many.. But I have never used these p***ages, or to you they are meaningless..

You are right about one thing.. I can't prove that what is claimed for the nature of God can be held to the nature of a man's spirit.. They are different as you have agreed.. One is created and one is self-existent.. But since Jesus used the word to mean a man that has become disembodied by death as well as to mean the nature of God, well I think that the physical nature can be held a similar.. You can disagree with that, but since either idea is opinion yours is as good as mine and mine is as good as yours..

As I said before you see nothing in the scripture that explains spirit.. I do.. The words I have used about the nature of a spirit are in the Bible.. A spirit is a person without flesh and bone.. A spirit (At least the Spirit that is God) is invisible.. Just because you disregard that teaching from doesn't mean that the Bible is in error or that Smith's teaching are correct.. Al it means is you dismiss the teachings of the Bible.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Nope I haven't shown you a thing.. Only John 4:24,

John 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This says that God is spirit. Does not tell us what spirit is.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This says that Christ had a body of flesh and bones. It does not tell us what spirit is.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This talks about invisible things being seen, which contradicts your definition of spirit. Spirit can be seen if you include that in your list of invisible things. It does not narrow the discussion to spirit. It does not tell us anything about spirit specifically.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Originally Posted by James Banta

(Verse 16 goes on to say that he created all invisible things. What are they? SPIRITS!!),

And here you are arguing from your conclusion. Yes, it says that God created the visible and the invisible, and then it goes on to expand what he was talking about and spirit is not mentioned. You have to ***ume that spirit is invisible to say what you said. But as I have pointed out, Christ told the apostles that a spirit does not have flesh and bones but he didn't say a spirit is invisible.

1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And I have pointed out that you don't know if God is invisible by choice or by nature. I have also pointed out that Christ said

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall csee God.

This shows that God is invisible by choice not nature, which contradicts your idea that spirit is invisible.

Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Same as above and don't forget that God is invisible by choice.

Originally Posted by James Banta

.. That is nothing right.. That is what I hear you saying.. These p***ages are wrong because they don't agree with you.

No, you are wrong because the scriptures you referenced don't tell us what spirit is, and none of them even tell us anything about the spirit of man since you believe that God and man are not the same.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yeap saying that a Spirit is invisible,

A point that I dispute and you have not answered.

Originally Posted by James Banta

saying that A spirit is without flesh and bone..

This is the one thing that I told you that we didn't need to know. A spirit is not a lot of things, and this is just one thing it is not. The question is what spirit is.

Originally Posted by James Banta

All lies because you say so it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches..

Never said that. You are the one that is drowning in the lack of information from the Bible.

Originally Posted by James Banta

It's corrupt..

Never said that. Now your insecuri***es are beginning to show.

Originally Posted by James Banta

We have to hear only the testimony of Joseph Smith..

Never said that. Your insecurities are showing.

Originally Posted by James Banta

That is truth, right? It doesn't matter that Smith had several versions of what he called the first vision some that don't even include Jesus much less the Father..

Now you are getting way off the topic. Your insecurities are flaming.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Did he really change the truth that the Church has held about the nature of God for almost 2,000 years?

Now you are really off the planet. And you have no proof outside of your understanding of the Bible that this is what the Church believe for the first 150 years.

Originally Posted by James Banta

He changed nothing even through he did try to pervert that truth.. God is Spirit.. A spirit is a person without a body of flesh and bone, who is invisible.. That narrows down by a lot the definition of a spirit.. But none of that is Biblical.. Just because this doctrine is based on the Bible mean nothing, to you at least.

And this doesn't tell us one single thing about what spirit is. You are sounding very desperate.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Making up doctrine about what a Spirit is is a teaching I leave for the cults..

No one is making up doctrine. But you are failing to show any evidence for your beliefs. I have asked questions that you have ignored. You have provided scriptures that don't say what you claim they say. You have speculated about spirit and God and I have pointed out the problems with your speculation. But I have never attacked the Bible as you claim. I have never said the Bible was corrupt as you claim. And I have questioned your doctrine and beliefs but I have not revealed anything about mine. So you are wrong on all counts. Do you feel the heat?

Originally Posted by James Banta

I say no more tha I can find taught about in the Bible..

And I have asked questions about those beliefs that you have ignored. Why are you ignoring the questions that I have asked? Do you find them difficult to answer?

Originally Posted by James Banta

Mormonism as an example of this by saying that a Spirit is a being of flesh and bone as tangible as man's..

Now you are blatantly lying. I never said anything like this and I never will. You are getting really confused. Never said it never will.

Originally Posted by James Banta

That is the doctrine made up in the mind of a man not what I have taught..

No, that doctrine was made up in your mind, because no Mormon in his right mind would ever teach that.

End of part 1.

[Russianwolfe]

Part 2.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I claim nothing about the nature of God, or the nature of spirit that is not taught in the Bible..

And I have already pointed out where you have gone beyond the Bible. So this claim is also false.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I understand completely why you would ask. It is quite clear from your responses that you haven't any idea of the nature of either..

Since I have not revealed any belief of mine this is an empty statement.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have said there is no definition in the Bible that you will accept..

But you haven't given any defintion from the Bible, so how can you say this?

Originally Posted by James Banta

Just because your heart is so hardened against the revelation of God through Jesus given to us in his word doesn't mean that I reject that nor do I admit that it doesn't give a definition for what a spirit is.. It's just that you refuse the definition given..

This is mostly an ad hominen attack. Again, you are showing just how desparate you are. And if the Bible has anything to say about what spirit is, you haven't posted it.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have no scripture to say that God is uncreated? Where have you been It's right there in Psalm 90:2. In short it says that God has been GOD from everlasting to everlasting..

And I have been telling you that this doesn't mean what you want it to mean because it was written by an ancient Hebrew and not an ancient Greek. The Hebrews didn't have your Greek understanding of time. So when the ancient Hebrews said from everlasting to everlasting, it did not mean from the Greek eternity to the Greek eternity.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then Isaiah was told by God that there was never a God in existence other then Him..

It actuall says that there was no God before him (when was there a time before God existed?) and there would be no God after him (after God? When would there be a time after God?). So you have major problems using this scripture because it contradicts the other scripture you were trying to use that talks about everlasting. So your lack of understanding of ancient paradigms is killing your ability to understand the truth that the Bible is trying to tell you.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Not one before and not one after..

Yes, that is what is say. Before God and after God. How does that fit in with your other beliefs? Was there really a time before God? That is what the scripture implies. How do you fit that into your beliefs?

Originally Posted by James Banta

You of course can't understand that this means that He is God and has always been so..

Not when it says something that you aren't admitting.

Originally Posted by James Banta

You actually have to understand the meaning of everlasting and Go God was formed to see what that is saying..

And you have to consider the paradigm of the ancients before you can get at the truth of what these scriptures are saying.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then mormonism calls God dumb because He doesn't even know about the formation of other Gods, when it's so clear through Joseph Smith that there are many..

Again with the false accusations. You are really showing just how insecure you are, with all these false accusations. No mormon calls God dumb. That is what you do.

Originally Posted by James Banta

But I have never used these p***ages, or to you they are meaningless..

I have pointed out the problem with the scriptures as you try to use them. You just ignore what I have said.

Originally Posted by James Banta

You are right about one thing.. I can't prove that what is claimed for the nature of God can be held to the nature of a man's spirit.. They are different as you have agreed..

I haven't agreed. I have pointed out the problems with your beliefs that you keep ignoring and here you are making false accusations.

Originally Posted by James Banta

One is created and one is self-existent.. But since Jesus used the word to mean a man that has become disembodied by death as well as to mean the nature of God, well I think that the physical nature can be held a similar.. You can disagree with that, but since either idea is opinion yours is as good as mine and mine is as good as yours..

Actually you are stating conclusions that you haven't provided any evidence for. There is nothing for me to disagree with because you have skipped the step where you provide the evidence for your conclusion.

Originally Posted by James Banta

As I said before you see nothing in the scripture that explains spirit.. I do..

What I have said is you have provided nothing to tell us what the Bible say spirit is.

Originally Posted by James Banta

The words I have used about the nature of a spirit are in the Bible.. A spirit is a person without flesh and bone.. A spirit (At least the Spirit that is God) is invisible.. Just because you disregard that teaching from doesn't mean that the Bible is in error or that Smith's teaching are correct.. Al it means is you dismiss the teachings of the Bible.. IHS jim

And I have pointed out the problems with what you are saying here. And you just ignore them.

We seem to have reached the end of our discussion. I have asked my questions and all you do is name calling and false accusations. You don't seem to have an answer to any of the problems that I have pointed out. This is not about the Bible but about what you claim the Bible says. There are problems in what you say but you ignore them. Hide your head in the sand, James. Its the only way you can continue to believe what you claim to believe.

Marvin

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

I stated my question in the OP. So far, no one has provided any scriptures that clearly answer the question.

If Christ spoke true, that to know God is life eternal, then the Bible is severely lacking in one very important point on our salvation.

Marvin

I'm sorry you feel that the Bible lacks anything necessary to eternal salvation. God has revealed what he wants us to know and what we need to know. Paul said he had preached the entire Gospel. Jesus told the disciples to take THE Gospel to the entire world. What do you believe is missing from this Gospel that affects your salvation? OT saints didn't have the whole Bible as we do. Yet they have the promise of eternal life. They had faith. They believed in the One True God. They heard of the coming of the promised Messiah. They believed. They didn't demand proof.

Its interesting that you demand scriptural evidence from Christians, yet when your founder made the claim that God has a body as tangible as man's, you didn't demand biblical proof.

The Holy Bible teaches the Gospel. Many have become born-again by the reading of these Scriptures and with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Marvin, a truly born-again Christian CAN know God. The apostles asked Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus said look to me. He was God who had come in the flesh. The Scriptures tells us of many of God's attributes. We cannot know God as a man because He is not and never was a man.

Jesus Christ said: " I AM THE WAY, THE LIFE AND THE TRUTH. To know Christ is to have eternal life. We don't separate God from Christ. If you know Jesus, you know heavenly Father. Jesus said: I and the Father are ONE.

[Russianwolfe]

You don't have anything to add to this discussion either. When you go off topic this much it shows.

Marvin

Originally Posted by TheSword99

I'm sorry you feel that the Bible lacks anything necessary to eternal salvation. God has revealed what he wants us to know and what we need to know. Paul said he had preached the entire Gospel. Jesus told the disciples to take THE Gospel to the entire world. What do you believe is missing from this Gospel that affects your salvation? OT saints didn't have the whole Bible as we do. Yet they have the promise of eternal life. They had faith. They believed in the One True God. They heard of the coming of the promised Messiah. They believed. They didn't demand proof.

Its interesting that you demand scriptural evidence from Christians, yet when your founder made the claim that God has a body as tangible as man's, you didn't demand biblical proof.

The Holy Bible teaches the Gospel. Many have become born-again by the reading of these Scriptures and with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Marvin, a truly born-again Christian CAN know God. The apostles asked Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus said look to me. He was God who had come in the flesh. The Scriptures tells us of many of God's attributes. We cannot know God as a man because He is not and never was a man.

Jesus Christ said: " I AM THE WAY, THE LIFE AND THE TRUTH. To know Christ is to have eternal life. We don't separate God from Christ. If you know Jesus, you know heavenly Father. Jesus said: I and the Father are ONE.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

You don't have anything to add to this discussion either. When you go off topic this much it shows.

Marvin

Marvin, you don't want the truth. You ignore all my questions. God is a spirit and you want him to be an exalted man because that's what your founder said.

Your eyes and ears are closed.

[Russianwolfe]

Again you demonstrate your lack of anything to add to this discussion. Whether or not God is a exalted man is not the subject of this discussion. When you ask a question and don't just preach to me, I am quite willing to answer you. But keep it on topic or start your own thread.

Marvin

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Marvin, you don't want the truth. You ignore all my questions. God is a spirit and you want him to be an exalted man because that's what your founder said.

Your eyes and ears are closed.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Whether or not God is a exalted man is not the subject of this discussion.

Marvin

It has everything to do with the discussion at hand Marvin. Earth to Marvin. If God the Father is an exalted man then he would have a body of flesh and bones which clearly is not "God is spirit".

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Again you demonstrate your lack of anything to add to this discussion. Whether or not God is a exalted man is not the subject of this discussion. When you ask a question and don't just preach to me, I am quite willing to answer you. But keep it on topic or start your own thread.

Marvin

Marvin, several of us Christians have told you what the Bible says about God. He is invisible.. We gave you the scriptural references but you don't want them. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. So what do YOU think a spirit is??

This is the Mormonism category and that is what we are supposed to be discussing.

My point is Marvin, you want biblical proof, but refuse to admit that many of your church's teachings are not biblical.

[Knox]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It has everything to do with the discussion at hand Marvin. Earth to Marvin. If God the Father is an exalted man then he would have a body of flesh and bones which clearly is not "God is spirit".

But the Bible refers to Jesus as a spirit, too. So obviously, it is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical to conclude that a verse saying that God is spirit, means that God does not have a corporeal body. Jesus kind of went out of His way (ate, drank, let people touch Him, touched other people) to keep His apostles from reaching the invalid conclusion that you have reached.

[Russianwolfe]

First, my question is about what spirit is. No one has given me any Biblical reference that says what spirit is.

Second, as I have pointed out, saying that God is invisible doesn't tell us what spirit is for 2 reasons:

1. It doesn't say whether God is invisible by choice or by nature. I have pointed out in Matt 5, Christ says that the pure in heart will see God, which leads me to conclude the God is invisible by choice and can reveal himself when he choses. No one has addressed this point. No one.

2. Since you believe that man and God are two completely different kinds of beings, what it says about God being invisible may not apply to man. I pointed out that when the apostles thought Christ was a spirit when he appeared to them after the resurrection, Christ did not say that a spirit was invisible, he said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Which may indicate that a spirit can be seen.

And since I am asking for Biblical references as to what spirit is, your asking me is ridiculous. Provide the Biblical references that speak to what spirit is. Dont' try to turn this back on me.

Your two points are the only thing that anyone has been able to provide that says something about Spirit. Erik tried to say that spirit is immaterial, but he has not answered my question as to how he knew that was true. I have to ***ume at this point that it was an extra-Biblical doctrine that was made up to fill in the hole that the Bible leaves.

Since no one has provided any Biblical references that define what Spirit is, how can you say that what I believe is unbiblical? If the Bible doesn't say, how can you? I can't admit that what I believe is unbiblical when the Bible has nothing to say.

I am rejecting any and all Biblical verses that don't answer the question I have asked. If you find any more verses, let's discuss them.

Marvin

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Marvin, several of us Christians have told you what the Bible says about God. He is invisible.. We gave you the scriptural references but you don't want them. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. So what do YOU think a spirit is??

This is the Mormonism category and that is what we are supposed to be discussing.

My point is Marvin, you want biblical proof, but refuse to admit that many of your church's teachings are not biblical.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Knox

So obviously, it is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical to conclude that a verse saying that God is spirit, means that God does not have a corporeal body.

It is not wrong at all. What other Christian denomination believes that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Knox

But the Bible refers to Jesus as a spirit, too.

Please give us the verse that you are using as your proof text.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Knox

But the Bible refers to Jesus as a spirit, too. So obviously, it is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical to conclude that a verse saying that God is spirit, means that God does not have a corporeal body. Jesus kind of went out of His way (ate, drank, let people touch Him, touched other people) to keep His apostles from reaching the invalid conclusion that you have reached.

Could you please give us the bible chapter and verse instead of making general statements?

As for Jesus Christ, He came in the flesh in order to die for your sins. So yes, he had a body. The Bible NOWHERE says that God the Father has a body. It was never taught that God had a corporeal body until a farm boy made that claim. Then a whole bunch of folks left the Bible behind for this charismatic young man.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

First, my question is about what spirit is. No one has given me any Biblical reference that says what spirit is.

Second, as I have pointed out, saying that God is invisible doesn't tell us what spirit is for 2 reasons:

1. It doesn't say whether God is invisible by choice or by nature. I have pointed out in Matt 5, Christ says that the pure in heart will see God, which leads me to conclude the God is invisible by choice and can reveal himself when he choses. No one has addressed this point. No one.

2. Since you believe that man and God are two completely different kinds of beings, what it says about God being invisible may not apply to man. I pointed out that when the apostles thought Christ was a spirit when he appeared to them after the resurrection, Christ did not say that a spirit was invisible, he said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Which may indicate that a spirit can be seen.

And since I am asking for Biblical references as to what spirit is, your asking me is ridiculous. Provide the Biblical references that speak to what spirit is. Dont' try to turn this back on me.

Your two points are the only thing that anyone has been able to provide that says something about Spirit. Erik tried to say that spirit is immaterial, but he has not answered my question as to how he knew that was true. I have to ***ume at this point that it was an extra-Biblical doctrine that was made up to fill in the hole that the Bible leaves.

Since no one has provided any Biblical references that define what Spirit is, how can you say that what I believe is unbiblical? If the Bible doesn't say, how can you? I can't admit that what I believe is unbiblical when the Bible has nothing to say.

I am rejecting any and all Biblical verses that don't answer the question I have asked. If you find any more verses, let's discuss them.

Marvin

Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. So what do you think a spirit is?? If God is a spirit, then he does NOT have a body of flesh and bones. Therefore God IS NOT A MAN, EXALTED OR OTHERWISE!!! God is NOT what mormonism teaches!

The Bible says that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God. God is INVISIBLE. God had no creator. He IS the Creator. He is without beginning or ending. The Bible says God dwells in unapproachable light. No man can see Him and live. This is what the word of God says!

Read the bible with no presumptions or through the eyes of Mormonism.. Just read it.

If God can choose to be invisible than he is nothing like us. He is clearly not human.

Speaking of Mormonism, since this is the category, what do you believe about God? Is he a man, who through obedience, became exalted and is now some god-being? Where does the bible say any of this?? Please give us the biblical reference. If you can't supply it than Mormonism is wrong isn't it.. The mormon version of God is nowhere taught in the Holy Scriptures!


The Christian God is invisible, dwells in light unapproachable, no man can see him and live. Isn't that EXACTLY what the Holy Bible says about God!?