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Thread: Biblical Proof that it's impossible for God to have a body?

  1. #26
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Brigham was an apostate??
    He would have been, if he had really taught what some people think he taught.
    What McConkie labeled heresy was an interpretation of Young's teachings that concluded that Adam is the same person as the "Trinity's" Person of the Father. McConkie said that IF Young had ever taught such a thing, then Young taught a false doctrine.

    TCJCLDS did not have hymns published that reinforced and encouraged one another with song in regards to Adam being God, well at least being Michael the Archangel?
    I don't know. If you have an example, post it and I will be enlightened.

  2. #27
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    He would have been, if he had really taught what some people think he taught.
    What McConkie labeled heresy was an interpretation of Young's teachings that concluded that Adam is the same person as the "Trinity's" Person of the Father. McConkie said that IF Young had ever taught such a thing, then Young taught a false doctrine.


    I don't know. If you have an example, post it and I will be enlightened.
    Then Young was an apostate.. He did teach those thing and McConkie admitted it.. He said that Yes BY did teach those things.. Have you not tead His actual words?
    Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This [i.e., Brigham Young's teaching on Adam], however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is, that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works. (Letter from Bruce McConkie to Eugene England dated Feb. 19, 1981)..

    No interpretation about it he said that it is just like we anti's say it is.. Do you see that in the exerts from the letter: "all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him". He was calling me a cultist but I consider the source.. IHS jim

  3. #28
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Do you see that in the exerts from the letter: "all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him". He was calling me a cultist but I consider the source.. IHS jim
    So, since you are considering the source, does that mean that you think McConkie's opinion should not be trusted? Was he a dishonest person, in your opinion?

  4. #29
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    So, since you are considering the source, does that mean that you think McConkie's opinion should not be trusted? Was he a dishonest person, in your opinion?
    I don't believe McConkie about any point of doctrine.. I guess he was a fairly honest man in his dealing in business, but about his religious views he was on of the insiders, I man I would never trust.. Does that mean he lied about what he knew about young when talking to another insider, I doubt that.. And you trust Him as an apostle of Jesus. Do you think he would tell such huge lie? Can you show anywhere where he said he was lying about these statement? You made an unsupported claim about McConkie. I showed you where you were wrong. Now you try to excuse it because I don't find him to be a credible teacher.. That dear one is flimsy.. IHS jim

  5. #30
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    He would have been, if he had really taught what some people think he taught.
    What McConkie labeled heresy was an interpretation of Young's teachings that concluded that Adam is the same person as the "Trinity's" Person of the Father. McConkie said that IF Young had ever taught such a thing, then Young taught a false doctrine.


    I don't know. If you have an example, post it and I will be enlightened.
    See zip file.

  6. #31
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I don't believe McConkie about any point of doctrine..
    So if he is talking about the idea, allegedly believed by a few heretics, that Adam and Jesus' Father in Heaven are the same PERSON, you don't believe him when he says it's a false doctrine?

    I guess he was a fairly honest man in his dealing in business, but about his religious views he was on of the insiders, I man I would never trust.
    I am trying to figure out how much you trust him.

  7. #32
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    See zip file.
    Thanks for the link, but I thought you were gonna provide something I haven't seen before. BTW, how do you post snapshot zip files like that? That seems really useful.

    Anyhow, I was asking you for examples that support your implication that

    "TCJCLDS did... have hymns published that reinforced and encouraged one another with song in regards to Adam being God, well at least being Michael the Archangel"

    but the document you posted--the famous JoD section that supposedly identifies Adam as the Person Jesus in the Garden was praying to--isn't a hymn or song, as far as I can tell. It's just part of a controversial lecture.

    And as for the idea that Adam is the incarnated angel Michael, that is bona fide church doctrine, I believe.

  8. #33
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Thanks for the link, but I thought you were gonna provide something I haven't seen before. BTW, how do you post snapshot zip files like that? That seems really useful.

    Anyhow, I was asking you for examples that support your implication that

    "TCJCLDS did... have hymns published that reinforced and encouraged one another with song in regards to Adam being God, well at least being Michael the Archangel"

    but the document you posted--the famous JoD section that supposedly identifies Adam as the Person Jesus in the Garden was praying to--isn't a hymn or song, as far as I can tell. It's just part of a controversial lecture.

    And as for the idea that Adam is the incarnated angel Michael, that is bona fide church doctrine, I believe.
    ...click the link and do a "find" (crtl+f work in my browser) for Adam-God and it will jump right to the pertinent section:

    Adam-God Doctrine in Mormon Hymns

    "Interestingly, the next line speaks of “His Son, Jesus Christ.” Two Adam-God hymns, surprisingly, still remain in the hymnbook. Although, the words of one of them {empahsis mine}, have been altered somewhat from the original text"

    MacG

  9. #34
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    ...click the link and do a "find" (crtl+f work in my browser) for Adam-God and it will jump right to the pertinent section:

    MacG
    Thanks. I found this elsewhere about the one song which appeared only in the European songbook, and only for one edition:

    It was, however, deleted in the 12th edition (1863) and is found only in this one edition of all the LDS hymnals.

    The specific reason for its deletion has not been documented, but other evidence reveals a reservation about the dissemination of the non-official Adam-God concepts.
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LGv98-cFwhgJ:http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/n...ient=firefox-a

    Also, your source claims "Two Adam-God hymns, surprisingly, still remain in the hymnbook." But I read them and your source's claim that they teach that Adam and Jesus' Father in Heaven are the same Person, is patently false.

  10. #35
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    So if he is talking about the idea, allegedly believed by a few heretics, that Adam and Jesus' Father in Heaven are the same PERSON, you don't believe him when he says it's a false doctrine?


    I am trying to figure out how much you trust him.
    I believe him on proven points of history.. Something that is recorded that he can't deny.. These are not doctrines.. Young taught the doctrine not McConkie.. McConkie just admitted that Young taught such things.. the only reason he did that is because it is an undeniable fact of history.. I point to him because he was a LDS authority who admitted the history when it is hitting him direct in the face..

    I guess you are calling Young one of the few HERETICS.. I never said that McConkie taught a different doctrine in this letter.. All he did was admit that Young taught such doctrine.. I don't quote him because I find him to be any kind of authority.. I quote him because mormonism holds that he was an apostle of the LDS church.. That should make his words authoritative to you.. At least for now.. IHS jim

  11. #36
    Knox
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    So where do you claim that he lied, then? What statements of his do you NOT believe to be truthful?

  12. #37
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    So where do you claim that he lied, then? What statements of his do you NOT believe to be truthful?
    I didn't say he lied.. I said I don't believe what he says.. Just because I don't trust him doesn't mean he is necessarily a liar.. I have heard him many time say things I totally agree with.. Other times he is more mormon that any man that ever lives save Orson Pratt.. And just as out spoken in his error.. I don't even call Young a liar.. Critically deceived to the point of spiritual death but I really believe that in his mind that Adam was his father and his God.. That is the depth of his error, the depth his ANTI_BIBLICAL teachings had sank.. IHS jim

  13. #38
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" NASB
    He didn't understand.. I said just what you did.. I just tried to put it into terms that a child could understand and he jumped on one word instead of the meaning of the example.. IHS jim

  14. #39
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I didn't say he lied.. I said I don't believe what he says.. Just because I don't trust him doesn't mean he is necessarily a liar.. I have heard him many time say things I totally agree with.. Other times he is more mormon that any man that ever lives save Orson Pratt.. And just as out spoken in his error.. I don't even call Young a liar.. Critically deceived to the point of spiritual death but I really believe that in his mind that Adam was his father and his God.. That is the depth of his error, the depth his ANTI_BIBLICAL teachings had sank.. IHS jim
    Then what do think of the claims of some of your pals over on 'another forum' that say that all LDS people lie? Are your friends correct? Or are they, um, "critically deceived to the point of saying untrue things without realizing it" ?

  15. #40
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Thanks. I found this elsewhere about the one song which appeared only in the European songbook, and only for one edition:

    It was, however, deleted in the 12th edition (1863) and is found only in this one edition of all the LDS hymnals.

    The specific reason for its deletion has not been documented, but other evidence reveals a reservation about the dissemination of the non-official Adam-God concepts.
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LGv98-cFwhgJ:http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/n...ient=firefox-a

    Also, your source claims "Two Adam-God hymns, surprisingly, still remain in the hymnbook." But I read them and your source's claim that they teach that Adam and Jesus' Father in Heaven are the same Person, is patently false.
    It's run by Mormons why would they present that which is patently false?

    MacG

  16. #41
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    It's run by Mormons
    It seems to be run by fundamentalists.

    why would they present that which is patently false?
    Several possible reasons, including:

    1. They have a poor understanding of the material and therefore their conclusions were incorrect.

    2. They have a fundie agenda and therefore it's in their interest to reach the conclusions they reach.

  17. #42
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    It seems to be run by fundamentalists.


    Several possible reasons, including:

    1. They have a poor understanding of the material and therefore their conclusions were incorrect.

    2. They have a fundie agenda and therefore it's in their interest to reach the conclusions they reach.
    I see and you of course have no such agenda

  18. #43
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Then what do think of the claims of some of your pals over on 'another forum' that say that all LDS people lie? Are your friends correct? Or are they, um, "critically deceived to the point of saying untrue things without realizing it" ?
    I will rest my belief on the Bible.. ALL HAVE SINNED.. The prophet Isaiah admitted he was a liar (Isaiah 6:5) Are you going to say that your "prophets" are somehow better than he? IHS jim

  19. #44
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    I see and you of course have no such agenda
    Knox, I understood what you meant by the Fundiies comment. BUt what makes them wrong?

    MacG

  20. #45
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Knox, I understood what you meant by the Fundiies comment. BUt what makes them wrong?

    MacG
    Apparently, I am not allowed to tell you.

  21. #46
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Apparently, I am not allowed to tell you.
    You are allowed to say why Christians are wrong.. You aren't allowed to use words like FUNDIIES. Try fundamentalists, that might work for you.. IHS jim

  22. #47
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    You are allowed to say why Christians are wrong.. You aren't allowed to use words like FUNDIIES. Try fundamentalists, that might work for you.. IHS jim
    Hmmm. Okay, I guess there is some rule against referring to Fundamentalist MORMONS as "Fundies." Interesting.

    What I found to be wrong about the conclusion made on that Fundamentalist MORMON site, was their claim that there are still two hymns in the LDS hymnbook that teach that Adam and Jesus' Father who art in Heaven are the same person. I read through each of those hymns, and saw no evidence that would support the conclusion that was made on that Fundamentalist MORMON site.

  23. #48
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Hmmm. Okay, I guess there is some rule against referring to Fundamentalist MORMONS as "Fundies." Interesting.

    What I found to be wrong about the conclusion made on that Fundamentalist MORMON site, was their claim that there are still two hymns in the LDS hymnbook that teach that Adam and Jesus' Father who art in Heaven are the same person. I read through each of those hymns, and saw no evidence that would support the conclusion that was made on that Fundamentalist MORMON site.
    This is part of LDS history that they would like us to forget.. Still it was a clear teaching of B Young for decades.. It wasn't just a one time adoration.. In the Temples they confirm that Adam was one of the Gods that helped organize the world. B Young expanded on that concept and made him the primary God of this divine generation.. Today's mormonism would like this buried and forgotten but showing that all their so called authority comes through a false prophet, a man that spoke in the name of other Gods is very important to PROVE that all their claims to any authority to act in the name of God is a lie.. IHS jim

  24. #49
    Knox
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    This is part of LDS history that they would like us to forget..
    What would YOU like? For us to forget it because you feel it's false doctrine, right? But here you are trying to make us remember it. Is that wise? If we remember it, maybe we will start believing it again, and it will be your fault because you weren't willing to let it be forgotten.

    Today's mormonism would like this buried and forgotten but showing that all their so called authority comes through a false prophet, a man that spoke in the name of other Gods is very important to PROVE that all their claims to any authority to act in the name of God is a lie.. IHS jim
    Something IS a lie, then? I thought you just finished saying

    "I didn't say he lied.. I said I don't believe what he says.. Just because I don't trust him doesn't mean he is necessarily a liar.."

    Maybe you can clear this up, Jim: You go through those 2 hymns that the "Fundamentalist Mormon site" claims teach that Adam is the same person as God the Father, and you show me the parts that teach that. Or, maybe you will be like me--unable to see that being taught.

  25. #50
    James Banta
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    [Knox;76012]What would YOU like? For us to forget it because you feel it's false doctrine, right? But here you are trying to make us remember it. Is that wise? If we remember it, maybe we will start believing it again, and it will be your fault because you weren't willing to let it be forgotten.
    Just because you don't want to remember doesn't mean that you should forget it. You should remember all the out and out false doctrine that both Young and Smith invented. That Adam is God or that there are three Gods and you too can become a god.. Remember these things but believe God tells a different story (Isaiah 43:10).


    Something IS a lie, then? I thought you just finished saying
    Something is a lie if you know what you are saying is false.. I can't say the BYoung knew Adam wasn't really God. He may have believed that. But he had access to the Bible and didn't bother to check that doctrine before he made it public.. Not a lie you say, ok, but it is still proof that he was a false prophet because he spoke in the name of a false God.. UNLESS you also believe that Adam is our God and the only God with whom we have to do..
    He (Adam) is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).

    As I said I can go along with Young actually believing this but it is NOT TRUE and outside the promise that to know the only true God is to have eternal life..
    John 17:3
    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    In teaching this it proves that Young is NOT a candidate for eternal life.. What you have is a prophet who was not a believer. Hell bound even by present day LDS teaching. After all, people are excommunicated for teaching this doctrine today..


    "I didn't say he lied.. I said I don't believe what he says.. Just because I don't trust him doesn't mean he is necessarily a liar.."

    Maybe you can clear this up, Jim: You go through those 2 hymns that the "Fundamentalist Mormon site" claims teach that Adam is the same person as God the Father, and you show me the parts that teach that. Or, maybe you will be like me--unable to see that being taught.
    I have just showed that Young taught this doctrine.. It is not a far reach for me to believe that the FLDS still agree with his teachings.. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 01-29-2011 at 08:43 AM.

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