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Thread: Paul Owen - An Anglican!

  1. #1
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    Default Paul Owen - An Anglican!

    Paul Owen, who has been invovled in dialogue with Mormons, has made some statement which led me to do further research. It appears that Owen approaches beliefs from an Anglican perspective, just as I thought. After all, I am an Anglican myself, so I recognize the conclusions Owen reached.

    However, this statenent by Owen has stumped me:

    "I was again struck by the fact that typical Evangelicalism all too often lacks the resources to deal constructively with Mormon thought. Evangelicalism lacks a robust understanding of the efficacy of the sacraments, an appreciation for ritual, an acknowledgment of the teaching authority of the Church, a sense of the iden***y of the visible Church (outside of which there is no ordinary way of salvation), the continuation of a ministerial priesthood (including apostolic succession) in the Church conveyed through the laying on of hands, and a recognition of the necessity of good works for salvation (and not merely their inevitability as the fruits of faith)." (Statement by Owen 2006 annual meeting of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology)

    Paul Owen identifies himself as a "Reformed Anglican." Well, I'm a member of the Reformed Episcopal Church," part of the Anglican Church in N.A., and I can relate to his above statement about the efficacy of sacraments, liturgical appreciation, the historic episcopate in succession, etc. I believe these things are part of historic Christianity, but not necessarily necessary in themselves for a legitimate expression of Christianity to exist. By the way, these things ARE NOT FOUND in Mormonism.

    But when I come to Owen's statement about "the necessity of good works for salvation (and not merely their inevitability as the fruits of faith)", I have to take grave exception. If Owen is an Anglican, of the "reformed" variety, then he should be aware that the teaching of Anglicanism regarding the realtionship between salvation and works is found in the Articles of Relgion. And more specifically, we find this Anglican teaching regarding justification before God:

    XI. Of the Justification of Man.

    We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.


    What we learn from this article is that our salvation, being accounted righteous before God, is the result of faith in Christ, and not of works. It's pretty clear.

    And the next Article reads:

    XII. Of Good Works.

    Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith; insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit.


    Good works, therefore, are the result of regneration, not the means to it, and are evidence of salvation. It couldn't be clearer.

    Now, Paul Owen may be, as he has stated, a "Reformed Anglican," and that means he's part of a conitinuing Church I ***ume, but I would suggest that the statement that works contributes to salvation in any way is not part of the historic Anglican position on the subject, as evidenced by the Articles of Relgion quoted. A clarification in this regard would be welcomed from Paul Owen.

    Meanwhile, Mormons have to understand that Christians do not go by what one man says, but must base their faith on what the Bible states. I left the Episcopal Church because of what a man said - Bishop Spong. We do not submit to the word of men, but the Word of God. You would do well to do the same.

  2. #2
    Richard
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    I like this, B2M5L2 defends him personally and you kind of throw him under the bus. I love the unity of Faith. Just my opinion though.
    Last edited by Richard; 03-23-2011 at 11:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I like this, B2M5L2 defends him personally and you kind of throw him under the buss. I love the unity of Faith. Just my opinion though.
    No, I didn't throw him under the bus at all. Why don't you honestly deal with what I stated instead of your usual silliness.

    I requested a clarification, and was HONEST enough to say I disagree with part of his statement.

    Christians can disagree with one another - unlike Mormons who are under a monolithic dictatorship.

  4. #4
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    No, I didn't throw him under the bus at all. Why don't you honestly deal with what I stated instead of your usual silliness.

    I requested a clarification, and was HONEST enough to say I disagree with part of his statement.

    Christians can disagree with one another - unlike Mormons who are under a monolithic dictatorship.
    I see, thanks for the clarification, or the pick and choose of their research and beliefs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I see, thanks for the clarification, or the pick and choose of their research and beliefs.
    You have no idea what you're talking about. The so-called "authority" you have from Cowdery and Smith baptizing and ordaining each other is laughable. And to call yourself a high priest of anything is beyond ludicrous.

  6. #6
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    Christians can disagree with one another - unlike Mormons who are under a monolithic dictatorship.
    --What about Van Hale? Wasn't it YOU who cited his disagreement with the monolith regarding the BOM? Did you just shoot yourself in the foot? Does it hurt much? What caliber of gun were you using? Hope it wasn't loaded with hollowpoints.....

  7. #7
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    You have no idea what you're talking about. The so-called "authority" you have from Cowdery and Smith baptizing and ordaining each other is laughable. And to call yourself a high priest of anything is beyond ludicrous.
    Switch and bait, but bankrupt at the same time.

  8. #8
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --What about Van Hale? Wasn't it YOU who cited his disagreement with the monolith regarding the BOM? Did you just shoot yourself in the foot? Does it hurt much? What caliber of gun were you using? Hope it wasn't loaded with hollowpoints.....
    They can do this and at the same time and out of the other side of their mouth proclaim Unity of Faith. Interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --What about Van Hale? Wasn't it YOU who cited his disagreement with the monolith regarding the BOM? Did you just shoot yourself in the foot? Does it hurt much? What caliber of gun were you using? Hope it wasn't loaded with hollowpoints.....
    Did you happen to comment on Van Hale's view. I'd agree with him, but I don't think the stories are really inspired in the BoM, I think they're stolen from another source. And you fell for it, Jeff. You should think of where you are leading those you love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Switch and bait, but bankrupt at the same time.
    You're on ignore. I really don't like dealing with people that have nothing significant to add to a discussion. As far as you go, I don't even think you know what an Anglican is.

    I have yet to see you post one legitimate response to any inquiry. So, adios. Enjoy your golf game.

  11. #11
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    But when I come to Owen's statement about "the necessity of good works for salvation (and not merely their inevitability as the fruits of faith)",
    On this point I was thinking:

    What is the fruit of works? Is it saving faith?

    What is the fruit of saving faith? Is it works?

    If I work because I think it will save or hope to gain entrance to Heaven, I trust in my own efforts thinking that God will see how hard I worked. Think the rich young ruler.

    If I have saving faith, being forgiven my sin, it will produce works, for gra***ude wants to give. Think Zacheaus.

    MacG

  12. #12
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    On this point I was thinking:

    What is the fruit of works? Is it saving faith?

    What is the fruit of saving faith? Is it works?

    If I work because I think it will save or hope to gain entrance to Heaven, I trust in my own efforts thinking that God will see how hard I worked. Think the rich young ruler.

    If I have saving faith, being forgiven my sin, it will produce works, for gra***ude wants to give. Think Zacheaus.

    MacG

    What the rich young ruler was asking was: what must I Do to inherit eternal life. Those who belong in a faith group that teaches "works" salvation are always looking to DO something to add to the doctrine of salvation. Failing to realize its WHAT Christ DID.

  13. #13
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    Did you happen to comment on Van Hale's view. I'd agree with him, but I don't think the stories are really inspired in the BoM, I think they're stolen from another source. And you fell for it, Jeff. You should think of where you are leading those you love.

    The parts that are factual in the BoM are those that came from the Holy Bible. The rest were "borrowed" from other books and also from Smith's own creative imagination which his own mother attested to. In fact, when Lucy Smith wrote a book and included this very thing, Brigham Young was outraged and asked that changes be made. I had a discussion about this with an lds apologist. He was angry when I brought this up. Another embarr***ment they want swept under the rug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    The parts that are factual in the BoM are those that came from the Holy Bible. The rest were "borrowed" from other books and also from Smith's own creative imagination which his own mother attested to. In fact, when Lucy Smith wrote a book and included this very thing, Brigham Young was outraged and asked that changes be made. I had a discussion about this with an lds apologist. He was angry when I brought this up. Another embarr***ment they want swept under the rug.
    Yes, and the entire book was a money-making project by Smith, Cowdery, Rigdon and Martin. When Smith saw that he could be head honcho prophet, and make even more money (he was a lazy person, essentially) without having to do much but speak out of his twisted mouth all of his imaginary "revelations," he went with it. He also suckered a lot of women into believing an angel would kill him if they didn't "marry" him. So, you see we are dealing with a complete conartist who belonged behind bars and not in womens' beds.

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    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    Yes, and the entire book was a money-making project by Smith, Cowdery, Rigdon and Martin. When Smith saw that he could be head honcho prophet, and make even more money (he was a lazy person, essentially) without having to do much but speak out of his twisted mouth all of his imaginary "revelations," he went with it. He also suckered a lot of women into believing an angel would kill him if they didn't "marry" him. So, you see we are dealing with a complete conartist who belonged behind bars and not in womens' beds.
    If I remember right, Smith claimed God told him to sell the copyright of the BoM to Canada and Smith sent his 2 friends out there. They came back and said nobody wanted it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    If I remember right, Smith claimed God told him to sell the copyright of the BoM to Canada and Smith sent his 2 friends out there. They came back and said nobody wanted it.
    So, they understand then that he was a false prophet? Right? He claimed God told him one thing, and it never came to p***. That's the test - he's a false prophet, and do they even care?

    And to tell you the truth, the Book is very boring. I've had one Reogranized Church member who does outreach for them state that she hasn't even read it because it is so darn boring.
    Last edited by Apologette; 03-25-2011 at 08:50 AM.

  17. #17
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    If I remember right, Smith claimed God told him to sell the copyright of the BoM to Canada and Smith sent his 2 friends out there. They came back and said nobody wanted it.
    Can anyone produce the Joseph Smith Revelation written in Joseph Smith handwriting that would vouch for this revelation. Interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --What about Van Hale? Wasn't it YOU who cited his disagreement with the monolith regarding the BOM? Did you just shoot yourself in the foot? Does it hurt much? What caliber of gun were you using? Hope it wasn't loaded with hollowpoints.....
    Actually, Van Hale's position that your holy book, the BoM, is not literal historical fact is something you have failed to deal with, speaking of shooting yourself in the foot. If some Christian told me the Bible was not literal, and that Jesus wasn't actually literally born and died in the Holy Land, or that he wasn't really resurrected - well, that is not just something I'd disagree with - in that case I'd have to tell that person that they are NOT a Christian.

    I've told John Spong and others of his ilk that their beliefs put them outside the framework of Christianity into heresy.

  19. #19
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Can anyone produce the Joseph Smith Revelation written in Joseph Smith handwriting that would vouch for this revelation. Interesting.
    Do your own research.

  20. #20
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Do your own research.
    I checked all morning, googled, yahooed and Binged, no, nada, zippo document has ever been found. Hmmm, so care to change your mind or just keep on posting accusation without verification and so typical of those who just make, awe, misrepresentations is a nice word, as they go along, folks??

  21. #21
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    [B][COLOR="Red"]Did you happen to comment on Van Hale's view.
    --Here is my comment: I disagree with him. Now, back to the self-contradictory positions:

    #1. "LDS aren't allowed to disagree with the monolithic church doctrines."

    #2. Van Hale disagrees with the church's monolithic doctrine regarding the BOM."


    Wanna comment on that?

  22. #22
    alanmolstad
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    Reformed Anglican?

    Is that a real thing, or just a name a guy made up on his own?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Reformed Anglican?

    Is that a real thing, or just a name a guy made up on his own?
    No, he didn't make it up, he merely reformed the name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Reformed Anglican?

    Is that a real thing, or just a name a guy made up on his own?
    The Reformed Episcopal Church is a denomination, and is now part of the Anglican Church in North America - the largest continuing body. There are "Reformed Anglicans," by belief (Calvinism).
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  25. #25
    alanmolstad
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    any details about them ?

    and the name "Reformed Episcopal Church" suggests they split-off?

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