Camels, Llamas and other Nephite "Cattle"

[Apologette]

Do Mormons ever research anything? Or do they just swallow all the "faith building" bologna they are spoon fed?

The Nephi Project's latest newsletter states that the term "cattle" can mean many animals if broadly interpreted - even lamas and camels, not to mention goats (Why aren't BoM goats called cattle?). What was the matter with HF (heavenly father) who was transmitting the meaning of "Reformed Egyptian" to Joseph Smith who stuck his head in a hat? Don't you think that HF could have called Llamas llamas? He called goats goats, didn't he? He used the word "camels," right? No, let's call llamas "cattle," that's more accurate! The Mormon HF wasn't astute enough to call them by their correct name, I guess.

As far as camels go, they had gone extinct 10,000 to 15,000 years ago from South America, long before a sub-floating Jaredite was a twinkle in his father's eye. Actually, llamas are a form of camelid, and have nothing to do with cattle as we understand the word. If you want to broaden the definition of "cattle," then why use the words goat and camel, which are supposedly cattle according to the Nephi Project? Why not just call goats and camels cattle? Do you begin to see how bogus this claim is now?

Mormons will grasp at any straw to prove Mormonism's stellar book, "The Book of Mormon," true. Soon will they uncover in the Peruvian jungle some giant Kingdom built by the Nephites, before they set out to cover all the lands north and south. Millions of these guys have goine missing! Maybe they are looking in the wrong place - Nephiville could be covered up by the end posts at the Meadowlands! Maybe the cult will foot the bill for some archaeological probing in Jersey! That's if they don't want to do it at Hill Cumorah - which is really someplace in South America, with another Hill Cumorah in NY which contains no evidence of all the battles to the death these Nephites, Lamanites and Jaredites had! And all those missing steel swords (which aren't really steel, I guess, since one Mormon "apologists" has claimed they would have decayed in the earth) might just be uncovered! After all, we have Mayan, Incan, and Aztec artifacts, not to mention Mogollon.

For a look at Mormon silliness, see: http://wn.com/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms

[Snow Patrol]

What's the word when someone criticizes another for doing something and then turns right around and does it themselves? Oh yeah... hyposomething.

For example, "Do Mormons ever research anything?". Followed by, "The Nephi Project's latest newsletter states that the term "cattle" can mean many animals if broadly interpreted - even lamas and camels, not to mention goats (Why aren't BoM goats called cattle?)."

If one does a little research one will find that the term cattle originally DID mean any type of property. From http://www.word-origins.com/definition/cattle.html

Ultimately, cattle is the same word as chattel (13th c.), and when it first entered English it had the same meaning, ‘property’. From earliest times, however, it was applied specifically to livestock thought of as property. In the Middle Ages it was a wide-ranging term in animal husbandry, being used for horses, sheep, pigs, and even poultry and bees, as well as cows, and such usages survived dialectally until comparatively recently, but from the mid 16th century onwards there is increasing evidence of the word’s being restricted solely to cows. Its ultimate source is medieval Latin capitāle ‘property’, which came to English via Old French chatel as chattel and via Anglo-Norman catel as cattle. Capitāle itself goes back to cl***ical Latin capitālis (from caput ‘head’), from which English gets capital.


Oops, it appears that cattle, at least used in the original sense would be an apporpriate term.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What's the word when someone criticizes another for doing something and then turns right around and does it themselves? Oh yeah... hyposomething.

For example, "Do Mormons ever research anything?". Followed by, "The Nephi Project's latest newsletter states that the term "cattle" can mean many animals if broadly interpreted - even lamas and camels, not to mention goats (Why aren't BoM goats called cattle?)."

If one does a little research one will find that the term cattle originally DID mean any type of property. From http://www.word-origins.com/definition/cattle.html

Ultimately, cattle is the same word as chattel (13th c.), and when it first entered English it had the same meaning, ‘property’. From earliest times, however, it was applied specifically to livestock thought of as property. In the Middle Ages it was a wide-ranging term in animal husbandry, being used for horses, sheep, pigs, and even poultry and bees, as well as cows, and such usages survived dialectally until comparatively recently, but from the mid 16th century onwards there is increasing evidence of the word’s being restricted solely to cows. Its ultimate source is medieval Latin capitāle ‘property’, which came to English via Old French chatel as chattel and via Anglo-Norman catel as cattle. Capitāle itself goes back to cl***ical Latin capitālis (from caput ‘head’), from which English gets capital.


Oops, it appears that cattle, at least used in the original sense would be an apporpriate term.

But didn't HF know the difference between the 19th century concept of "cattle" and camels, llamas, goats, etc.? You're full of it - you know very well old Joe meant cattle to be cows - you know, the word cows being a Mormon. Isn't that what old Heber related women to?

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What's the word when someone criticizes another for doing something and then turns right around and does it themselves? Oh yeah... hyposomething.

For example, "Do Mormons ever research anything?". Followed by, "The Nephi Project's latest newsletter states that the term "cattle" can mean many animals if broadly interpreted - even lamas and camels, not to mention goats (Why aren't BoM goats called cattle?)."

If one does a little research one will find that the term cattle originally DID mean any type of property. From http://www.word-origins.com/definition/cattle.html

Ultimately, cattle is the same word as chattel (13th c.), and when it first entered English it had the same meaning, ‘property’. From earliest times, however, it was applied specifically to livestock thought of as property. In the Middle Ages it was a wide-ranging term in animal husbandry, being used for horses, sheep, pigs, and even poultry and bees, as well as cows, and such usages survived dialectally until comparatively recently, but from the mid 16th century onwards there is increasing evidence of the word’s being restricted solely to cows. Its ultimate source is medieval Latin capitāle ‘property’, which came to English via Old French chatel as chattel and via Anglo-Norman catel as cattle. Capitāle itself goes back to cl***ical Latin capitālis (from caput ‘head’), from which English gets capital.


Oops, it appears that cattle, at least used in the original sense would be an apporpriate term.

But the BoM was supposedly written way long before the 13th century in "Reformed Egyptian", not English.

[Snow Patrol]

I guess you would need to show, from the Book of Mormon, the improper use of the term cattle that you are complaining about. I did a quick perusal and did not see where it was used for camel or llamas.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I guess you would need to show, from the Book of Mormon, the improper use of the term cattle that you are complaining about. I did a quick perusal and did not see where it was used for camel or llamas.

Well, it is delusional to think that a 19th century-mind thought of llamas and camels as cattle. You know it, and you'll go to the mat defending the really dumb position that cattle refers to llamas. Give me proof that any Hebrews herded llamas in South America, or in Mesoamerica where there are no llamas pal!

Furthermore, since llamas are only found in the Andean region of S.A., you are now going to have to prove that Hebrews were hanging around in Peru.

The info is taken from the Nephi Project newsletter. So, if cattle does not refer to llamas or camels, does it refer to cows? Read the newsletter and you'll see the inference that cattle could refer to llamas, camels, blah, blah, blah.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I guess you would need to show, from the Book of Mormon, the improper use of the term cattle that you are complaining about. I did a quick perusal and did not see where it was used for camel or llamas.

Here's the quote from the Nephi Project:

The Andes mountains of South America is the home of four members of the camel family: the llama, the alpaca, the pacuña, and the vicuña. At least the llama, alpaca, and pacuña were domesticated in large numbers in South America during Book of Mormon times. Further, Joseph Smith would have been 100% correct in translating a Reformed Egyptian word meaning various types of camels as "cattle"

Apparently in Reformed Egyptian cattle can mean various types of camels, by which I suppose they mean camelids, evolved descendents of camels, known as llamas. Right!

Look it up, camels were extinct in S.A. at least 10,000 to 15,000 years ago, and by then llamas existed, which these guys are trying to p*** off as a type of "camel." What else, were sloths actually horses?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Well, it is delusional to think that a 19th century-mind thought of llamas and camels as cattle. You know it, and you'll go to the mat defending the really dumb position that cattle refers to llamas. Give me proof that any Hebrews herded llamas in South America, or in Mesoamerica where there are no llamas pal!

Where in the Book of Mormon are llamas are referred to cattle? If it isn't in there then there is nothing to defend.

The info is taken from the Nephi Project newsletter. So, if cattle does not refer to llamas or camels, does it refer to cows? Read the newsletter and you'll see the inference that cattle could refer to llamas, camels, blah, blah, blah.

Ah, so you are complaining about the Book of Mormon using the word cattle in describing llamas but you can't actually show that the Book of Mormon does this? Are you criticizing without doing your research?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Where in the Book of Mormon are llamas are referred to cattle? If it isn't in there then there is nothing to defend.





Ah, so you are complaining about the Book of Mormon using the word cattle in describing llamas but you can't actually show that the Book of Mormon does this? Are you criticizing without doing your research?

Read the next post from your own Mormon researchers.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Read the next post from your own Mormon researchers.

I did. No reference to the Book of Mormon directly. That is what I'm asking for. If you feel the need to criticize the Book of Mormon, then do your OWN research and show where your criticism applies.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I did. No reference to the Book of Mormon directly. That is what I'm asking for. If you feel the need to criticize the Book of Mormon, then do your OWN research and show where your criticism applies.

So, then, would you agree that Joe Smith's book meant cows when using the term "cattle?"

Provide evidence that there were cows pre-Colombian in the New World.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What's the word when someone criticizes another for doing something and then turns right around and does it themselves? Oh yeah... hyposomething.

For example, "Do Mormons ever research anything?". Followed by, "The Nephi Project's latest newsletter states that the term "cattle" can mean many animals if broadly interpreted - even lamas and camels, not to mention goats (Why aren't BoM goats called cattle?)."

If one does a little research one will find that the term cattle originally DID mean any type of property. From http://www.word-origins.com/definition/cattle.html

Ultimately, cattle is the same word as chattel (13th c.), and when it first entered English it had the same meaning, ‘property’. From earliest times, however, it was applied specifically to livestock thought of as property. In the Middle Ages it was a wide-ranging term in animal husbandry, being used for horses, sheep, pigs, and even poultry and bees, as well ascows, and such usages survived dialectally until comparatively recently, but from the mid 16th century onwards there is increasing evidence of the word’s being restricted solely to cows. Its ultimate source is medieval Latin capitāle ‘property’, which came to English via Old French chatel as chattel and via Anglo-Norman catel as cattle. Capitāle itself goes back to cl***ical Latin capitālis (from caput ‘head’), from which English gets capital.


Oops, it appears that cattle, at least used in the original sense would be an apporpriate term.

Your reference to Old English doesn't stand up in the context of the verse. Why would the verse separate cattle from other beasts? And yet it does

1 Nephi 18:25
And it came to p*** that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of bore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

I guess you never figured on having to defend the truth of what Smith wrote.. The cow here doesn't mean pigs and horses.. IHS jim

[Knox]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Do Mormons ever research anything?

We obviously research the accusations made against us--how else would we know how false they are?

Or do they just swallow all the "faith building" bologna they are spoon fed?

Dunno about you, but I eat my Oscar Mayer luncheon meats with a fork, or in a sandwich. Never with a spoon.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Apologette

So, then, would you agree that Joe Smith's book meant cows when using the term "cattle?"

What occurrence in the Book of Mormon are you referring to? You made a claim about how the Book of Mormon uses "cattle" incorrectly. Please give a specific example, from the Book of Mormon, where this is the case. Otherwise, please acknowledge that you hastily criticized something you did not do your own research on.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What occurrence in the Book of Mormon are you referring to? You made a claim about how the Book of Mormon uses "cattle" incorrectly. Please give a specific example, from the Book of Mormon, where this is the case. Otherwise, please acknowledge that you hastily criticized something you did not do your own research on.

The Book of Mormon indicates the Nephites/Jaredites had cattle, or don't you get it yet?

(Ether 9:17-19; Enos 1:21; 3 Nephi 3:22)

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Knox

We obviously research the accusations made against us--how else would we know how false they are?


Dunno about you, but I eat my Oscar Mayer luncheon meats with a fork, or in a sandwich. Never with a spoon.

Typical "brilliant" comment from the high priesthood. So, tell me, do you believe that camels and lamas are cattle, and if not, what were the cattle metnioned in the BoM - do you agree with the Nephi Project?

[Knox]

As far as camels go, they had gone extinct 10,000 to 15,000 years ago from South America,

Who says so? And why do you believe that the Nephites lived in SOUTH America? You sound like the people who were "sure" that coelacanths had gone extinct 30 million years ago....until a fisherman caught one in the 20th century. Oops.

[James Banta]

I see when the actual reference is used it scares those who are desperate to make their private interpretations be the only possible answer.. Did any of you that agree that a pig and a horse are cows bother to even look at what Smith said about these animals being present when the Lehi party arrived in the Americas? By the nonsense I see in the LDS posts all the animals listed in the text could have been llamas.. Strange that cows, oxen, donkeys, horses, goats, and all kinds of wild animals are mentioned but llamas that are by far the most numerous of all the wild beasts of the southern regions of the New world were left off the list while others that hadn't been on the continent for thousands of years were included.

It is a FACT that the philosophy of the modern LDS church is that Central and South America were the BofM lands.. I have even been told by LDS posters that the Land of Nephi was in what we call Columbia.. Last I looked that is South America.. IHS jim

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Knox

We obviously research the accusations made against us--how else would we know how false they are?


.

What you call researching is merely nothing more than repeating what you read and hear. You don't even research outside the box of mormonism. This is how errors and falsehoods gets repeated generation after generation.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Knox

Who says so? And why do you believe that the Nephites lived in SOUTH America? You sound like the people who were "sure" that coelacanths had gone extinct 30 million years ago....until a fisherman caught one in the 20th century. Oops.

No such people as Nephites

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Apologette

[B][COLOR="Indigo"]Do Mormons ever research anything?

The Book of Mormon was not the product of human research.

Do you see the Bible as the product of human research?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

The Book of Mormon was not the product of human research.

Do you see the Bible as the product of human research?

The BofM is a work purported to be scripture.. It must be judged the say way all writings that are found must be judged, in the light of existing scripture.. The whole New Testament rest securely on the teachings of the Old..

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 53:4-6
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I could quote many more such as the Brazen Serpent, The coats of skins that God made for Adam but these show clearly that the New Testament is the fulfillment of all the prophecies of the Old..

But what is the BofM? It is a jumble of Old and new testament text and teachings.. It contains imagery that a man of the late 1820's would have complete knowledge. It was mostly based in a time before the cross and yet it's message is that can be seen only from a New Testament perspective.. When ignoring the Law suits the needs of Smith to write another Gospel he does so.. Offer sacrifice without priesthood. Preforming baptisms without knowledge of their genesis all could come from a mind accustom to such "christian" practices. Practices unknown to the Hebrew people before the Babylonian captivity. Such teaching found in the BofM points to it being a work of a 19th century mind.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Look, guys, when you go to Utah make sure that when the meat market says "beef," they mean it. Could be llama meat!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Look, guys, when you go to Utah make sure that when the meat market says "beef," they mean it. Could be llama meat!

Since the LDS church doesn't know the difference I will have to watch out next time I am at Smith's (Korger).. Thanks for the smile this morning.. IHS jim

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Look, guys, when you go to Utah make sure that when the meat market says "beef," they mean it. Could be llama meat!

Especially at Taco Bell