Good, Evil, and Common Ground

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Do you believe there is any such thing as "common ground" between God and satan? Good and evil? Light and darkness?

If so, I would like to hear your reasoning.

Or do you rather believe that light and darkness never will meet and that there never will be common ground between God and satan, good and evil?

What does this have to do with Mormonism? A whole lot. But, I'll explain later. First, some responses, please.

Until you define your terms, your question is meaningless and its obvious that you are just trying to be tricky.

For example, if by "common ground" you mean common goals (as in the same goal), then the answer is yes. Both want to rule. Both have a destiny for mankind (even if it is not the same destiny). Both know the Bible really well, and etc. These things could be called "common ground" in some sense. If, on the other hand, by "common ground" you are referring to their ontology - the nature of their beings, the Biblical answer is no, even though for Mormons it would be yes since on the Mormon view both are just highly advanced human males - distinct only in degree, but not ontology.

But, as usual, Mormons are totally wrong. God and Satan are not ontologically identical or even similar. The Biblical truth is that God is the CREATOR and Satan is a CREATED being. God is a necessary being, while Satan is a contingent being. The "grounds" in this case are totally uncommon.

So what do you mean by "common ground"? Are you referring to a common type of BEING or a commonness between their goals, objectives or certain characteristics?

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

If, on the other hand, by "common ground" you are referring to their ontology - the nature of their beings, the Biblical answer is no,

That's what I'm referring to.
Good answer. I would agree.

Originally Posted by BrianH

But, as usual, Mormons are totally wrong. God and Satan are not ontologically identical or even similar. The Biblical truth is that God is the CREATOR and Satan is a CREATED being. God is a necessary being, while Satan is a contingent being. The "grounds" in this case are totally uncommon.
.

So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So, who introduced evil

From what i read in the story of Genesis, things are all "good" until the apple issue.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by bert10

*** 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

Satan could enter with the Sons of God to present themselves before the LORD because he has not yet faced final judgment. Until then he is still part of the "family" and still has the same rights as the rest of the Sons of God.



bert10

Satan lost all rights and was kicked out of heaven.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

That's what I'm referring to.
Good answer. I would agree.



So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

Since Mormonism teaches that all things have always existed, and that God and Satan are brothers, then no one introduced anything into existence. All things are infinitely and eternally co-existent, and hence co-equal, with a constant dualism taking place between good and evil, much like we see in the Eastern religions of Hinduism and Buddhism. The only exception is that Mormonism calls it "one eternal round" rather than samsara or reincarnation.

Therefore, until you change your silly worldview, Figster, then your questions are equally as silly, and ultimately meaningless when it comes to intelligent conversation.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Therefore, until you change your silly worldview, Figster, then your questions are equally as silly, and ultimately meaningless when it comes to intelligent conversation.

LOL

"Until you see things my way, having an intelligent conversation is ultimately meaningless."

Niiiiiiiiice.

And the critics of Mormonism then complain when the LDS decide not to engage in their silly attacks.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Sir

LOL

"Until you see things my way, having an intelligent conversation is ultimately meaningless."

Niiiiiiiiice.

Hey, I'm not the one subscribing to a silly worldview, and then sitting back asking silly questions.

And the critics of Mormonism then complain when the LDS decide not to engage in their silly attacks.

I'm not complaining. I merely pointed out a fact. If you object, then tell me where I'm wrong. Don't just sit there engaging in fallacious argumentation and thinking that that someone makes your silly worldview look intelligent.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Since Mormonism teaches that all things have always existed, and that God and Satan are brothers, then no one introduced anything into existence. All things are infinitely and eternally co-existent, and hence co-equal, with a constant dualism taking place between good and evil, much like we see in the Eastern religions of Hinduism and Buddhism. The only exception is that Mormonism calls it "one eternal round" rather than samsara or reincarnation.

Therefore, until you change your silly worldview, Figster, then your questions are equally as silly, and ultimately meaningless when it comes to intelligent conversation.

I take that as a "decline to answer" a simple question.

Oh well, I'm sure Brian will have a straightforward answer.


So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

I take that as a "decline to answer". Oh well, I'm sure Brian will have a straightforward answer.

Thanks for confirming via your non-response that what I wrote was true, further meaning that your question was nonsense. But then again, anyone who would think for a moment that good and evil have co-equally existed in a contingently infinite existence, as they wage a dualistic war that can never be won, could only engage in such nonsense in the first place.

Originally Posted by Figster

"So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?"

Already answered: Since Mormonism teaches that all things have always existed, and that God and Satan are brothers, then no one introduced anything into existence. All things are infinitely and eternally co-existent, and hence co-equal, with a constant dualism taking place between good and evil, much like we see in the Eastern religions of Hinduism and Buddhism. The only exception is that Mormonism calls it "one eternal round" rather than samsara or reincarnation.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Thanks for confirming via your non-response that what I wrote was true, further meaning that your question was nonsense. But then again, anyone who would think for a moment that good and evil have co-equally existed in a contingently infinite existence, as they wage a dualistic war that can never be won, could only engage in such nonsense in the first place.



Already answered: Since Mormonism teaches that all things have always existed, and that God and Satan are brothers, then no one introduced anything into existence. All things are infinitely and eternally co-existent, and hence co-equal, with a constant dualism taking place between good and evil, much like we see in the Eastern religions of Hinduism and Buddhism. The only exception is that Mormonism calls it "one eternal round" rather than samsara or reincarnation.

I've always thought that Mormonism has a real affinity to Hinduism, especially the concept of Atman, although the Hindus see Atman as mystical spirit, while the Mormons see matter as being eternal - but very refined matter - and this refined matter is spirit. So, in the longrun, they are very similar.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

Already answered:

So you personally go with the Mormon view on this that evil was never actually "introduced" into existence. It just IS.

Kinda surprising that you agree, but that's good.

Now let's give someone else an opportunity to discuss the question.

So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So you personally go with the Mormon view on this that evil was never actually "introduced" into existence. It just IS.

No. I'm just keeping the focus on Mormonism, since that is what the forum is about.

Thanks for confirming, though, the Mormon position on existence, which is, as already noted, silly.

So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

Why not simply defend your silliness, rather than engage in argumentation with ulterior motives?

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I've always thought that Mormonism has a real affinity to Hinduism, especially the concept of Atman, although the Hindus see Atman as mystical spirit, while the Mormons see matter as being eternal - but very refined matter - and this refined matter is spirit. So, in the longrun, they are very similar.

What the Figster doesn't seem to get, though, is that his "one eternal round" and the infinite existence of all things is in direct contradiction to what the Bible says. That's why his question is silly (or devious), for if all things have always existed, then that would include evil, which fits in perfectly with Hinduism, Buddhism, and even Platonism. There is an inherent dualism built into Mormonism, therefore, that will not allow for the final destruction of evil, which is something that the Mormon doesn't want to happen anyway, since that gives him the opportunity to be his own god on his own planet somewhere. Hence, the necessity of evil and sin in Mormonism rear their ugly heads once again. Sin and evil were a necessity for the human race to advance—humans had to disobey God in order to obey God, if that makes any sense—while contemporary Mormons put on a somber face when it comes to sin today, while later advocating their necessity in order to become gods. What a convoluted world the Mormon lives in, and yet wishes to criticize Christians, the Bible, and God himself, because they're not willing to comply with or support that worldview.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

I take that as a "decline to answer" a simple question.

Oh well, I'm sure Brian will have a straightforward answer.


So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

Even when the topic of Mormonism is involved, so far no one here has anything to offer of their own--nothing to discuss pertinent to the topic. Nothing to contrast with Mormonism's view. So essentially we are here comparing Mormonism with ... nothingism.

But it's still early in the day, I guess.

So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Even when the topic of Mormonism is involved, so far no one here has anything to offer of their own--nothing to discuss pertinent to the topic.

That is an abject lie. I've written several comments showing the silliness of not only the question, but why, from a Mormon perspective. You, on the other hand, have offered nothing by way of response, except now turn around and lie that no one has responded to your silliness.

Nothing to contrast with Mormonism's view. So essentially we are here comparing Mormonism with ... nothingism.

No, we're talking about Mormonism, which the subject of the forum. Now, if you don't want to defend your silly worldview, which has been explained quite well, even to the point where you've agreed to it, then that's your problem

But it's still early in the day, I guess.

So, when are you going to try and defend the silliness of believing that all things have always existed, while turning around and asking whose responsible for introducing evil into the world? The fact is, if evil always existed, at least according to Mormonism, then no one brought it into existence.

So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

Already answered: Since Mormonism teaches that all things have always existed, and that God and Satan are brothers, then no one introduced anything into existence. All things are infinitely and eternally co-existent, and hence co-equal, with a constant dualism taking place between good and evil, much like we see in the Eastern religions of Hinduism and Buddhism. The only exception is that Mormonism calls it "one eternal round" rather than samsara or reincarnation.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

What the Figster doesn't seem to get, though, is that his "one eternal round" and the infinite existence of all things is in direct contradiction to what the Bible says. That's why his question is silly (or devious), for if all things have always existed, then that would include evil, which fits in perfectly with Hinduism, Buddhism, and even Platonism. There is an inherent dualism built into Mormonism, therefore, that will not allow for the final destruction of evil, which is something that the Mormon doesn't want to happen anyway, since that gives him the opportunity to be his own god on his own planet somewhere. Hence, the necessity of evil and sin in Mormonism rear their ugly heads once again. Sin and evil were a necessity for the human race to advance—humans had to disobey God in order to obey God, if that makes any sense—while contemporary Mormons put on a somber face when it comes to sin today, while later advocating their necessity in order to become gods. What a convoluted world the Mormon lives in, and yet wishes to criticize Christians, the Bible, and God himself, because they're not willing to comply with or support that worldview.

Great insight. The eternal nature of matter in Mormonism reflects Joseph Smith's oft mentioned fear of annihilation. You find it throughout his journals and letters. The thought of being "nothing" struck a horrible cord in his fallen soul. Perhaps it was fear of judgment, really. So, as he spiraled further and further down into the whirlpool of antichrist heresy, Smith's fear led him to eventually teach that men were destined for eternal godhood, that men had always existed in some material form, and always would. Smith's strange obsession with and fear of "nothingness," led him to deny God as creator, even of the human spirit. God becomes part of existence, not the reason for it. And the Mormons, having no understanding of the True God, lap up this heresy to their own demise.

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

That's what I'm referring to.
Good answer. I would agree.

So then you would agree that God and Satan are NOT immortalized former mortals? When did you depart from LDS orthodoxy?

So, who introduced evil into existence, (or as some would ***ert, "the absence of good)? Who introduced that into existence?

Satan appears to be the first one to have rebelled against God which by definition is "evil". And BTW, the "absence of good" is an insufficient definition of "evil". In every case you can name, evil is the privation of good, not the absence of it.

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

So then you would agree that God and Satan are NOT immortalized former mortals? When did you depart from LDS orthodoxy?

Never did. I just agreed with that portion of your answer that seemed agreeable.

Originally Posted by BrianH

Satan appears to be the first one to have rebelled against God which by definition is "evil". And BTW, the "absence of good" is an insufficient definition of "evil". In every case you can name, evil is the privation of good, not the absence of it.

-BH
.

Does that mean that satan introduced the privation of God into existence? That's pretty powerful if a being can do that.

[alanmolstad]

well.....to answer the question in the ***le of this topic...

The answer is - "no"

There is no common ground between good and evil.

we humans are the "battle ground" where there is a war going on between our spirit and our flesh.

But we who are Christians are taught that while we may still struggle of the flesh, we are told that in Christ we actually have total victory over the flesh too.

so while I still struggle with evil as to all humans, yet i look forward to the day of my resurrection when the mortal problems I had will be left in the grave.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well.....to answer the question in the ***le of this topic...

The answer is - "no"

There is no common ground between good and evil.

we humans are the "battle ground" where there is a war going on between our spirit and our flesh.

But we who are Christians are taught that while we may still struggle of the flesh, we are told that in Christ we actually have total victory over the flesh too.

so while I still struggle with evil as to all humans, yet i look forward to the day of my resurrection when the mortal problems I had will be left in the grave.

Do you think that lasting misery is a fruit common to both good and evil? Or that lasting joy is a fruit common to both good and evil? I don't.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Do you think that lasting misery is a fruit common to both good and evil? Or that lasting joy is a fruit common to both good and evil? I don't.

........I dont have a clue what that sentence means...

But I do know for a fact that good and evil have nothing in common....Good is good.

Evil sometimes will put on a dress and act like good....but its never good....

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Never did. I just agreed with that portion of your answer that seemed agreeable.



Does that mean that satan introduced the privation of God into existence? That's pretty powerful if a being can do that.

Not in the LDS worldview it isn't, since all things are co-equal and co-eternal. Are you now recanting the LDS worldview?

[alanmolstad]

again...

There is no
Common Ground" between good and evil.

But what we do find true is that many times evil wraps itself up in the outward appearance of goodness.
Evil loves to look justified.
Evil loves to make good look bad.

But in the end, evil is just evil no matter that fact that it might put on a dress and try to p*** as good.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Never did. I just agreed with that portion of your answer that seemed agreeable.



Does that mean that satan introduced the privation of God into existence? That's pretty powerful if a being can do that.

Fig please explain what you mean by satan depriving us of God's existence.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Sorry Fig but that makes absolutely no sense.

Ok, I also got to agree with you on that one,,,when I read Fig's sentence with the part "introduced the privation of God into existence" it left me baffled?????

I have never seen those words strung together like that before,,,

Its an interesting phrase mind you.....not sure what it means,but it flows well...

There was another sentence bt Fig I would like him to go over again, slowly.

".........lasting misery is a fruit common to both good and evil....."

again its a nice sentence,
it flows well,
it might mean something interesting...
but all i get is a lot of words that piled into each other from all over....