Good, Evil, and Common Ground

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Ok, I also got to agree with you on that one,,,when I read Fig's sentence with the part "introduced the privation of God into existence" it left me baffled?????

I have never seen those words strung together like that before,,,

Its an interesting phrase mind you.....not sure what it means,but it flows well...

Well, evil, however you want to define it, had a true beginning according to my understanding of orthodoxy, and had no true beginning according to my understanding of Mormonism. And most people define evil as the absence of good, and a few the opposite of good, and some the privation of good. So, therefore, that must mean that Satan introduced the absence of good, and therefore the absence of God too. Do you have another way of explaining it?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

".........lasting misery is a fruit common to both good and evil....."

again its a nice sentence,
it flows well,
it might mean something interesting...
but all i get is a lot of words that piled into each other from all over....

It was a question, alan, not a statement. If a person is miserable, is this a fruit of good or evil?

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Well, evil, however you want to define it, had a true beginning according to my understanding of orthodoxy, and had no true beginning according to my understanding of Mormonism.

Are you saying that evil always existed??

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Well, evil, however you want to define it…

No, it's how YOU define it, which is the problem. You come here asking a silly question, probably for no reason other than to bait those you're looking to dupe, and then when the silliness of your question is pointed out to you, stemming from Mormon thought, then all the sudden you say, "however you want to define it." Well, dear sir, until you come to grips with your own definition, and then try to defend it, then your questioning of others (again, for ulterior motives) is irrelevant, if not deceptive.

Therefore, how about you try and explain to us how God and Satan are co-eternal/co-equal, or why you seem to think that all things are also co-eternal or co-equal, which would include even the abstract concepts of good and evil? If you can't do that, then why sit there and try to bait people into an argument that you cannot or will not defend in the first place? Or is that you simply want company in your otherwise lonely and misguided intellectual abyss that Mormonism had led you into?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

You come here asking a silly question,...... then your questioning of others (again, for ulterior motives) is irrelevant, if not deceptive.

...... Or is that you simply want company in your otherwise lonely and misguided intellectual abyss that Mormonism had led you into?

When all else fails and your position is weak....ad hominem attacks.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Sir

When all else fails and your position is weak....ad hominem attacks.

Excuse me, but until you state your position, then pointing out the lack of one is not an ad hominem. Rather, it is a statement of fact. And if you can't handle the facts, then there is no need for you (or your buddy Figster) to be baiting people into discussions over something that neither of you even know what you're talking about.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Are you saying that evil always existed??

Well, the other alternative is that someone introduced it for the first time, and that makes no sense.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Sir

When all else fails and your position is weak....ad hominem attacks.

He obviously has nothing to offer on his own.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

He obviously has nothing to offer on his own.

And what have you offered Figster?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

And what have you offered Figster?

A discussion topic comparing beliefs.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

A discussion topic comparing beliefs.

Where's that at? All I see is you baiting people with silly questions that you haven't even taken the time to answer yourself from your worldview.

[alanmolstad]

I just asked Fig to go over a sentence or two again for me...

I think I will wait untill things calm down...

(I dont even know what a "hominem" is?)

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Well, the other alternative is that someone introduced it for the first time, and that makes no sense.

Why do you think it doesn't make sense? Satan, unlike God, had a beginning. A created being free to choose. Satan chose to disobey, to rebel against God because he wants to be god, and thus evil began.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

........ Satan chose to disobey, to rebel against God ........., and thus evil began.

This is true.
The world was 'good"....this is the natural state of creation before the fall.

But evil is a turning away from God's way.
So evil is not a "thing" that was created by God, rather it is a decision to do other than you know God wants you to do.

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I just asked Fig to go over a sentence or two again for me...

I think I will wait untill things calm down...

(I dont even know what a "hominem" is?)

Ad hominem is a Latin expression which means "to the man." It is a logical fallacy used by many to avoid offering a response to a propositional statement or re****al, and instead the person attacks another person by way of insult, defamatory comment, or personally derogatory comment. In fact, it is commonplace in these kinds of forums to see the Mormon "apologist" engage in ad hominem argumentation for a variety of reasons. They don't know what the Bible actually says. Poor theological skill due to even poorer theological training in their so-called "seminaries" and Ins***utes. They don't know either Mormon doctrine or Mormon history, and so many of them fly along by the seat of their pants ***uming one thing, when clearly their leaders have said or written something else. And perhaps the worst handicap many Mormons exhibit is the very thing that got their illustrious leader Joseph Smith killed: human pride. Rather than honestly and openly look at the objective evidence of what is being argued, they would rather take a tumble, and then get mouthy about it, which only leads to further hardening of the heart toward the truth.

So, now you know what the dreaded ad hominem is about. Avoidance of the argument in order to wage a personal attack upon the person bringing the argument.

[alanmolstad]

So what we term "evil" was never a thing made by God.

God never made anything evil.
The world was created 'good".

However the word "evil" has different ways of use.
Like a child being given a booster shot might think that the doctor's needle is "evil". ...
But that is not really the use of the term "evil" that a Christan has in mind when we deal with this term.

Christians will use the term "evil" to talk about a conscious decision to turn away from what you know better.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

.......Avoidance of the argument in order to wage a personal attack upon the person bringing the argument.

I have noticed in some of the responses I have received from members of the forum that rather than sticking to the topic they tend to turn and "get personal" on me.

Its like if the don't like the message, they try to find out some dirt on the messenger.

I have seen that happen a few other times, where a bunch of people stop talking about issues and ideas, and then just start bringing up old comments from other topics and personal stuff not connected to the topic at hand.

The result of this is the slow turning of all the different topics into just one big long argument between the same people that goes from one topic to the next...

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is true.
The world was 'good"....this is the natural state of creation before the fall.

But satan had rebelled long before that, right? Wouldn't that make evil at least in existence before the Fall?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

But evil is a turning away from God's way.
So evil is not a "thing" that was created by God, rather it is a decision to do other than you know God wants you to do.

I agree that evil is not a thing. But it is a choice, and an option, and it is real.
What do you think is at work persuading people to choose wrongly? And to choose rightly?

It makes satan pretty powerful if he introduced for the first time ever the absence of good, or in other words the absence of God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

But satan had rebelled long before that, right? Wouldn't that make evil at least in existence before the Fall?
.

There are a lot of guys who have a whole storyboard of events dealing with the fall of Satan.

I smile when i hear their ways of thinking about such things...

The fact is, I got enough to worry about already that I dont need to try to play - "Pin the tail on the date Satan fell"

Such speculation might make a good movie script, but its just that...

Dr.Walter Martin taught us to have "charity" when it comes to side-issue teachings among my Christian brothers....so I don't make comments.

so look, if believing in a nice little back-story for Satan before he walked into the garden makes things more interesting for you, then that's fine with me.
To each their own on that matter I guess...


However I have learned over time that the same people that push this type of "Doctrines of demons" seem also to be the same people that get swept up in other things that are not so harmless.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

if he introduced for the first time ever the absence of good,......

ahh but did he?

Thats the thing....thats the one thing that we read in the Genesis text that stands out to me.
Its the fact that even before Satan got down to the down-and-dirty part of his conversation with Eve that something already was showing signs that it had gone wrong.

its hinted at in the answer Eve gave , where she says that the commandment of God was to not 'touch" it.
If you check (and im sure you already know this) that part was not actually from the Commandment of God.

This prompts the question - "Where did that idea come from?"

The answer from Eve is clearly in error.

Her husband, that we learn was there with her at the time, does not correct her.
As far as the text shows, only her husband knew the real commandment, and yet he says nothing to correct the clear error Eve made.

This brings the question - "Why didn't Adam correct Eve?"

There is no sign from the text that Satan had spoken to Adam or Eve before this moment.

So why didnt Adam chime in and correct the error his wife spoke?

We cant blame this on Satan...
Thus we cant blame the introduction of evil into the Genesis story onto Satan ....

The way the story reads, Eve thought she was telling the truth.
What if she was correct in this?
What if she was actually saying the answer correctly as she had been taught by the only person who knew?...(Adam)

Satan seems in the story to be a "facilitator" for the sin of Adam, but it does not appear from the Text here in Genesis that Satan came up with the idea of Adam messing with the commandment of God....

God told only Adam the commandment.
We dont read that god later told Eve, and that was unnecessary anyway, because Adam knew and it would fall to him to p*** on to both his wife and his children what the law was..

Yet the commandment Eve repeated was already messed up?

There seems to be a plot going here.
Adam seems to be up to something.
Satan seems to be only helping...
That plot seems ( from my reading of the story) to be already in play before Satan spoke one word to Eve....

[B2M5L2]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have noticed in some of the responses I have received from members of the forum that rather than sticking to the topic they tend to turn and "get personal" on me.

Its like if the don't like the message, they try to find out some dirt on the messenger.

I have seen that happen a few other times, where a bunch of people stop talking about issues and ideas, and then just start bringing up old comments from other topics and personal stuff not connected to the topic at hand.

The result of this is the slow turning of all the different topics into just one big long argument between the same people that goes from one topic to the next...

Welcome to the world of Mormon "Apologetics."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Its like if the don't like the message, they try to find out some dirt on the messenger.

Alan I warned you about this a while back. Remember?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Originally Posted by Sir

Too bad that the spirit of God in you isn't allowing you to see such bigggotry.

alanmolstad notice the subtlety of Sir's statement which is typical from LDS. It is really a double barreled stealth ad hominem.

What Sir is really saying is his statement but in a cleverly crafted subtle way.

1. You really don't have the holy spirit because it you did you would not be a bigot.

2. You are a bigot.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have noticed in some of the responses I have received from members of the forum that rather than sticking to the topic they tend to turn and "get personal" on me.

...

Alan, asking a person what faith he adheres to is not getting personal on you. If you are a Christian then why won't you go on record stating it? Why are you making excuses like you're not in the mood to discuss it. It makes it sound like you have something to hide. It just strikes me as strange that you won't answer this simple question.

I am a non denominational Evangelical, born again bible believing Christian. You?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Alan, asking a person what faith he adheres to is not getting personal on you. If you are a Christian then why won't you go on record stating it?

Erik he already did. I will repost it for you.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Originally Posted by billyray

are you lds pretending to be a christian? Just asking?

no, while i pretend to be a bladesmith, and a dog's master, and a gardener, and a kumdoist, the truth is that im a normal christian.

Hmmm..."normal christian" sounds a bit weak....
Im a super christian...yes, that sounds way better.

Baptized catholic
lutheran at the moment.
Raised and married anglican
confermmered episcopalian
schooled in a non-denominational tradition.
Attended for a year the church of christ, (bellevue wa)
attended for a year 7th day adventist
put on a seminar on how to deal with the cults (i taught on jws, ed decker taught on mormons)
have spoken before many fellowship groups in seattle.

Keep to the normal standard views that you do...(or you better)

my turn-on's are long walks on the beach and dancing in the rain.


Any questions?

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Erik he already did. I will repost it for you.

Billy, I am having a dialogue with Alan and I asked him what faith he adheres to. He says its too personal which sounds strange. I would like him to address why he feels this way. .

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Billy, I am having a dialogue with Alan and I asked him what faith he adheres to. He says its too personal which sounds strange. I would like him to address why he feels this way. .

Fair enough. But he did say that he was "lutheran at the moment".