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  1. #1
    contraeverything
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    Default Demon Possession

    I have been reading "The Kingdom of the Occult," and have read Dr. Koch's books in the past. In Martin's "Kingdom" book, there is a chart of all of the p***ages in the gospels which deal with exorcisms in the ministry of Jesus.

    Martin very obviously believes that the primary "gate" for demon possession is some sort of contact with the occult. He refers to experimentations with Ouija boards, heavy metal, witchcraft, horoscopes, and dozens of other occult contacts as being the "cause" (my word) of demon possession in the chapters that I have read.

    However, I have a situation going on near me in which I am certain that several members of a family are demon possessed, but there seems to be no known evidence of direct contact with the occult. Rather, the issue seems to be that an unsubmissive wife has become possessed by her rejection of her husband's authority, and each of the women in the family are experiencing spiritual oppression, if not possession, as they struggle with the replication of the mother's character in themselves.

    Briefly, the evidence of possession includes: blasphemy, active disobedience coupled with religion, inability to make sense of Biblical principles, discomfort around discussions of Christ and the Bible, incredible spiritual power (the mother/grandmother/matriarch, whom I maintain is demon possessed, has, despite being wholly devoid of charm or personality, somehow convinced several members of her family and church - persons who have credible professions of faith - to become involved in a crime with her, and some have been so convicted in court!), uncleanness, and inexplicable fear of the Bible and truth. Again, this is a brief sketch.

    In reading through the p***ages in the table in "Kingdom" (pp. 541-542), I made a chart myself to record the results. Column 1 is the p***age, Column 2 is the "evidence" of possession, Column 3 is the "cause" of possession, and Column 4 is the "resolution" of the possession. Obviously, Column 3 is the least populated by data.

    And at no point is "contact with the occult" one of the causes mentioned in the gospels. However, I added a couple of p***ages from Acts which did mention contact with the occult for a more complete chart.

    However, the following "causes" I did discover in the gospels: not being with Christ (Matt 12:30), sin & blasphemy (Matt. 12:31-32), and being unregenerate (Matt. 12:43-45). It seems to me that these "causes" could each be cl***ified under one umbrella cause - that of rebellion. For rebellion is certainly not taking Christ's side of an issue, both sin and blasphemy are acts of rebellion, and remaining unregenerate, I suppose, is the ultimate act of rebellion.

    I am proposing that the issue with demon possession, based upon my initial investigation of the scriptures here, is not contact with the occult, but rather rebellion against God. Rebellion - as in the feminist grandmother mentioned above - places one at once in the place of REJECTING God's authority and ACCEPTING evil (or, as one might say, a contrary, ungodly authority) instead. Certainly, "contact with the occult" is a form of rebellion, but it would only be a subset of rebellion, the actual cause, and not the cause itself.

    I simply find a paucity of indications that "contact with the occult" is widespread enough among the incredible number of people who were possessed in the Bible to be able to intellectually isolate it as THE cause of possession. Also, I have questions about the possession of children (not wholly infrequent in the gospel p***ages Martin lists) and the likelihood that children could choose to participate in occultic matters. Maybe it is just me.

    However, I would love to get some feedback on this. I am not saying Martin is "wrong" per se, and his ***ertion is certainly true as far as it goes, but I simply wonder if it goes far enough.

    Or perhaps I am missing a crucial aspect of his argument?

    Any help here?
    Last edited by contraeverything; 01-07-2009 at 08:44 PM. Reason: clarification

  2. #2
    IncitingRiots
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    I have rejected god ever since I was a young child. You would think that I would have been vome under demoic possesion by now. Then again, maybe there is no such things as demons....

  3. #3
    contraeverything
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    Quote Originally Posted by IncitingRiots View Post
    I have rejected god ever since I was a young child. You would think that I would have been vome under demoic possesion by now. Then again, maybe there is no such things as demons....
    Quote Originally Posted by TheApostleJohn
    And after the sop Satan entered into him (Judas). John 13:27
    I wonder if Judas realized he was possessed?

    Perhaps he merely believed himself to be acting in his own self-interest. Thirty pieces of silver, of course, could have been lifechanging for a guy who had been essentially homeless for a period of time. Perhaps he considered what he was doing to be his own personal social statement, his own rebellion, his own idea, justified, of course, because of the way religious folk had acted toward him.

    Nonetheless, it was objectively true that "Satan entered into him"....
    Last edited by contraeverything; 01-08-2009 at 09:49 AM. Reason: added dropped infinitive

  4. #4
    Trinity
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    There is many things to consider before attesting a possession by one or many demons.

    1) Statistically, one person on five is psychologically sick. The unbalanced biochemical of the brain is the most important reason. I have a good friend who is schizophrenic.
    2) Some people also has a distortion of their personality because of a very bad education, the usage of drugs and alcohol, stress, rape, post trauma syndrome, etc.
    3) Authentic exorcists are extremely rare.
    4) The vast majority of the diseases have natural causes (genetic, virus, bacteria, injuries and accidents, malnutrition, etc).
    5) Some people are thinking that they are possessed because of the autosuggestion and the animal magnetism (mesmerism). They compulsively believe that they have a demon but they are wrong (an obsession).

    Trinity

  5. #5
    contraeverything
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    There is many things to consider before attesting a possession by one or many demons.
    As I said above, I am not really interested in the practical aspect of diagnosing a person as either demon-possessed or not, though in the particular instance that I refer to, I have absolute certainty for reasons that I will not go into.

    My point was to solicit discussion of what I take to be Walter Martin's contention that possession is a phenomenon largely linked to occult practices. Again, I find this to be a position not backed up by the Biblical data, but would like some input on it... I may or may not be right (as to my examination of the Biblical data) and it may be that I have misunderstood Martin's contention in the "Occult" book (in which case, I would love someone to show where he discusses other possibilities, particularly if he has indicated that a generic at***ude of rebellion, as I have postulated above, might be a contributing factor).

  6. #6
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by contraeverything View Post
    My point was to solicit discussion of what I take to be Walter Martin's contention that possession is a phenomenon largely linked to occult practices. Again, I find this to be a position not backed up by the Biblical data, but would like some input on it...
    Some deep rooted sins can become causes. I agree with you that the occult practices are not the only causes. Sometimes this can be allowed by God himself.

    Trinity

  7. #7
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    There is many things to consider before attesting a possession by one or many demons.

    1) Statistically, one person on five is psychologically sick. The unbalanced biochemical of the brain is the most important reason. I have a good friend who is schizophrenic.
    2) Some people also has a distortion of their personality because of a very bad education, the usage of drugs and alcohol, stress, rape, post trauma syndrome, etc.
    3) Authentic exorcists are extremely rare.
    4) The vast majority of the diseases have natural causes (genetic, virus, bacteria, injuries and accidents, malnutrition, etc).
    5) Some people are thinking that they are possessed because of the autosuggestion and the animal magnetism (mesmerism). They compulsively believe that they have a demon but they are wrong (an obsession).

    Trinity
    How does a person get a very bad education? Or, could you clarify what you mean by, "very bad education?" Lastly, from what source did you get the list?

    Blessings....

  8. #8
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    How does a person get a very bad education?
    Bad parents.

    Or, could you clarify what you mean by, "very bad education?"
    Bad parents, and bad friends.

    Lastly, from what source did you get the list?
    From my experience.

    Some people only need to overcome from psychological injuries. We cannot say that they are possessed.

    Interview With an Exorcist: An Insider's Look at the Devil, Demonic Possession, and the Path to Deliverance
    by Jose Antonio Fortea
    http://www.amazon.com/Interview-Exor...2480631&sr=1-1

    Biography of Jose Antonio Fortea:
    "José Antonio Fortea Cucurull (born in Barbastro, Spain, 1968), priest and specialized theologian in Demonology. He studied Theology for his priesthood in the University of Navarre. He received the degree of licentiate (licenza) in the field of History of the Church at the faculty of Theology of Comillas. In 1998 he defended his thesis (tesina) en***led Exorcism in the Present Age under the direction of the Secretary of the Commission for the Doctrine of the Faith of the Spain Conference of Catholic Bishops."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Antonio_Fortea

    The official website:
    http://www.fortea.us/english/index.htm

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 01-20-2009 at 02:01 PM.

  9. #9
    Brad Smith
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    In talking with other paranormal investigators or reading their accounts, actual "demonic" possessions are rare; the numbers of actual cases range from one to three percent of cases are real.

    "Negative" infestations are more common, where investigators find locations with activity created by some en***y or en***ies. That being said, the team that I belong to have only run across infestations only a few times.

    In those cases, we refer the clients to clergy or other paranormal investigators who have more experience in that sort of thing.

  10. #10
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post
    In talking with other paranormal investigators or reading their accounts, actual "demonic" possessions are rare; the numbers of actual cases range from one to three percent of cases are real.

    "Negative" infestations are more common, where investigators find locations with activity created by some en***y or en***ies. That being said, the team that I belong to have only run across infestations only a few times.

    In those cases, we refer the clients to clergy or other paranormal investigators who have more experience in that sort of thing.
    I've briefly watched a paranormal show on TV. The show seemed scary, so I flipped the channel quickly. Since denomic possession cases are rare, does this mean some people pretend that they are demonized to get attention?

  11. #11
    Brad Smith
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    Not all the time.

    Most of the time, it's mental illness of some sort. During our prelim investigations, as the clients are interviewed, we ask them questions about mental health history, meds and the like.


  12. #12
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post
    Not all the time.

    Most of the time, it's mental illness of some sort. During our prelim investigations, as the clients are interviewed, we ask them questions about mental health history, meds and the like.

    You know what you are talking about. This is nice to see you here with us. Welcome among us.

    Trinity

  13. #13
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post
    Not all the time.

    Most of the time, it's mental illness of some sort. During our prelim investigations, as the clients are interviewed, we ask them questions about mental health history, meds and the like.

    What are the factors you realize the person is not demon possessed, but instead has a mental illness? I watched for a short time on youtube video about a person who was demon possessed. The person looked like she was demon possessed not mental illness.

  14. #14
    Brad Smith
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    Good question.

    Negative activity can be detected by "hot spots."

    If we have a case concerning an intelligent haunting and the en***y wishes to interact with us, it needs energy to do so.

    So, it drains energy from ambient air, creating "cold spots."

    Negative en***ies can do the same thing, but when they are active or attempt to manifest themselves, temperature spikes or hot spots can be detected.

    We also look for "aggressive" behavior, such as people being scratched, kicked, hit and so on. We also look for poltergeist activity and so on.

    It helps, too, that members of the team have "day ***s" that require them to be mental health counselors and social workers.

    The team I belong to has been around for nearly 8 or 9 years; we've encountered negative infestations only three times, out of the hundreds of cases we've handled.

    Again, most "possessions" are caused by untreated mental illness and even people who are acting out, wanting attention.

  15. #15
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post
    Good question.

    Negative activity can be detected by "hot spots."

    If we have a case concerning an intelligent haunting and the en***y wishes to interact with us, it needs energy to do so.

    So, it drains energy from ambient air, creating "cold spots."

    Negative en***ies can do the same thing, but when they are active or attempt to manifest themselves, temperature spikes or hot spots can be detected.

    We also look for "aggressive" behavior, such as people being scratched, kicked, hit and so on. We also look for poltergeist activity and so on.

    It helps, too, that members of the team have "day ***s" that require them to be mental health counselors and social workers.

    The team I belong to has been around for nearly 8 or 9 years; we've encountered negative infestations only three times, out of the hundreds of cases we've handled.

    Again, most "possessions" are caused by untreated mental illness and even people who are acting out, wanting attention.
    How is the "negative activity" detected? Do you use a device to detect it?

  16. #16
    Brad Smith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    How is the "negative activity" detected? Do you use a device to detect it?
    Infrared thermometers help detect the hot spots.

    We also use electromagnetic frequency detectors to look for unusual EMF readings. EMFs can do a number of things; EMFs can create hypersensitivity among certain people. EMF-induced hypersensitivity can do many things to a person, ranging from causing them to feel paranoid to creating headaches or even severe skin irritations.

    Infrasonic frequencies can cause hypersensitivity too.

    However, EMF can also act as an energy source for en***ies to tap in to, to give them power to manifest.

    Which is why we also have a number of members who are sensitive, i.e., have some form of extrasensory abilities.

    Yes, I'm talking ESP.

    Our sensitives can pick up "negative" activity.

    But, we've only encountered true negative activity on a few cases.
    Last edited by Brad Smith; 01-26-2009 at 05:32 PM.

  17. #17
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post

    Infrared thermometers help detect the hot spots.

    We also use electromagnetic frequency detectors to look for unusual EMF readings. EMFs can do a number of things; EMFs can create hypersensitivity among certain people. EMF-induced hypersensitivity can do many things to a person, ranging from causing them to feel paranoid to creating headaches or even severe skin irritations.

    Infrasonic frequencies can cause hypersensitivity too.

    However, EMF can also act as an energy source for en***ies to tap in to, to give them power to manifest.

    Which is why we also have a number of members who are sensitive, i.e., have some form of extrasensory abilities.

    Yes, I'm talking ESP.

    Our sensitives can pick up "negative" activity.

    But, we've only encountered true negative activity on a few case.
    Hi Brad,

    When you and others encountered true negative activity, what did you guys do? Me? I would freak out.

  18. #18
    Brad Smith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    Hi Brad,

    When you and others encountered true negative activity, what did you guys do? Me? I would freak out.
    In the first case, where one of our team members was physically attacked, we left. And, we urged our clients--who were renters--to leave.

    Since then, if we detect some sort of negative activity during a prelim investigation, we don't take the case; however, we urge the clients to seek aid from the clergy or we have them contact an investigator who specializes in negative en***ies.

    We're not geared for that sort of thing but know of groups and individual investigators who are.


  19. #19
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post

    In the first case, where one of our team members was physically attacked, we left. And, we urged our clients--who were renters--to leave.

    Since then, if we detect some sort of negative activity during a prelim investigation, we don't take the case; however, we urge the clients to seek aid from the clergy or we have them contact an investigator who specializes in negative en***ies.

    We're not geared for that sort of thing but know of groups and individual investigators who are.

    I remember renting couple of movies called, "En***y" with Diane Lane and "Amytiville Horror". These were based on true story. The stories were freaky. I was sooo scared after I watched them. Now, I refuse to watch those types of movies.

  20. #20
    Brad Smith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    I remember renting couple of movies called, "En***y" with Diane Lane and "Amytiville Horror". These were based on true story. The stories were freaky. I was sooo scared after I watched them. Now, I refuse to watch those types of movies.
    "The En***y" starred Barbara Hershey and is based on a true incident; in fact, my team has been invited to investigate that house.

    Amityville, however, has been debunked as a hoax. The activity never happened.

  21. #21
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post

    "The En***y" starred Barbara Hershey and is based on a true incident; in fact, my team has been invited to investigate that house.


    What was your team's conclusion about the house? Were they scared and excited? Did they learn anything from their investigation?

  22. #22
    Brad Smith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    What was your team's conclusion about the house? Were they scared and excited? Did they learn anything from their investigation?
    We didn't go.

    One, we don't handle negative haunts.

    Two, that place has been thoroughly investigated by others. And we have many other clients to help.

  23. #23
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post

    We didn't go.

    One, we don't handle negative haunts.

    Two, that place has been thoroughly investigated by others. And we have many other clients to help.
    Have you met Christian clients who encountered negative activity? I was told en***ies/demons don't mess around Christians because of Jesus.

  24. #24
    Brad Smith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    Have you met Christian clients who encountered negative activity? I was told en***ies/demons don't mess around Christians because of Jesus.
    I've read of many cases where Christians have had negative hauntings; as to cases of possessions, I've heard of Christians being possessed. I haven't read much on Wiccans, pagans or others being possessed.

  25. #25
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post


    I've read of many cases where Christians have had negative hauntings; as to cases of possessions, I've heard of Christians being possessed. I haven't read much on Wiccans, pagans or others being possessed.

    Brad if you were looking and seeing this with the mind of a believer you would understand why it could be as you see it.

    First, not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is a disciple or follower of Jesus. Some call themselves that because they consider themselves Christian because they belong to a church or because they believe "in" Jesus Christ. At one time I called myself a Christian for the last reason.

    Satan and/or his demon followers do not har*** those whom they already control. Think of it in this way. If you were a farmer who was trying to get cattle into a trailer so that you could take them to the butcher which ones would you use the prod on, the ones heading for the trailer or the ones going in the other direction?

    For years me and my family were open to all kinds of occult practices. Never ever had any kind of manifestation. Within a year of having given my life to God I experienced spiritual har***ment. There was no exorcism necessary because Jesus Christ was living within me. But I was being har***ed by evil spirits. I asked forgiveness and renounced my involvement in those things. I won't say I've never experienced spiritual battle since but I know who they are and who I am in Christ Jesus. That is the key to freedom.
    Last edited by sayso; 03-01-2009 at 07:55 AM.

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