R UFOs real?

[pilgrim1411]

I saw a UFO in 1991, and many people have looked to the sky and have seen UFO's. Most recently, study the Arizona Lights phenomenon. Study the Betty and Barney Hill incident and the Travis Walton abduction. I take the position that this whole thing is connected to the demonic.

[alanmolstad]

nope....not Satan...Not little green men...just a lie.

The only so-called proof of spacemen being behind the UFOs are just stories..

Well. stories are fun to tell around the campfire, but if we are looking at this from the scientific point of view all we can say is that there is no real proof of a single UFO being a space man from mars..

No proof.....ever.

Juts a campfire story and a fuzzy photo.

[pilgrim1411]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope....not Satan...Not little green men...just a lie.

The only so-called proof of spacemen being behind the UFOs are just stories..

Well. stories are fun to tell around the campfire, but if we are looking at this from the scientific point of view all we can say is that there is no real proof of a single UFO being a space man from mars..

No proof.....ever.

Juts a campfire story and a fuzzy photo.

Obviously you have not studied the data or had access to government archives. Contact nuclear physicist Stanton Freedman. He can supply you with tons of data and evidence you have never seen.

It is a mental prison to be closed minded.

[pilgrim1411]

From Stanton Freedman's website:

As a nuclear physicist who has had a serious interest in flying saucers since 1958, I have reached four major conclusions:

1. The evidence is overwhelming that Planet Earth is being visited by intelligently controlled extraterrestrial spacecraft. In other words, SOME UFOs are alien spacecraft. Most are not.

2. The subject of flying saucers represents a kind of Cosmic Watergate, meaning that some few people in major governments have known since July, 1947, when two crashed saucers and several alien bodies were recovered in New Mexico, that indeed SOME UFOs are ET. As noted in 1950, it’s the most cl***ified U.S. topic.

3. None of the arguments made against conclusions One and Two by a small group of debunkers such as Carl Sagan, my University of Chicago cl***mate for three years, can stand up to careful scrutiny.

4. The Flying Saucer story is the biggest story of the millennium: visits to Planet Earth by aliens and the U.S. government’s cover-up of the best data (the bodies and wreckage) for over fifty years.

Since 1967 I have lectured on the subject “Flying Saucers ARE Real” at more than 600 colleges and over 100 professional groups in all fifty US states, nine Canadian Provinces, twelve cities in England and nine in other countries, with only eleven hecklers. I have also appeared on hundreds of radio and TV shows. Overall, I have probably answered about 35,000 questions about UFOs and secrecy.

It’s clear that over 97% of the people have NOT read any of the five major scientific studies I discuss, and are unaware of the mountains of evidence that support my conclusions. They are also unaware of the scientific data, as opposed to tabloid nonsense. However, it is also clear from the Opinion Polls and from my own experience that indeed most people accept the notion that SOME UFOs are alien spacecraft. The greater the education, the MORE likely an individual is to accept this proposition. In an October 25, 1995, Oxford University Debate on the resolution “Planet Earth is being visited by intelligent extraterrestrial life,” the affirmative side, of which I was a part, garnered 60% of Debate Union Member votes on the question. Ninety-two percent of 100,000 people calling during a TV Debate in London on June 27, 1997, said Earth has been visited by aliens!

The problem is NOT that there is not enough evidence to justify my conclusions; but that most people, especially the noisy negativists, are unaware of the real, non-tabloid evidence.

Debunkers seem to employ four major rules:

1. What the public doesn’t know, we certainly won’t tell them. The largest official USAF UFO study isn’t even mentioned in twelve anti-UFO books, though every one of those books’ authors was aware of it.

2. Don’t bother me with the facts, my mind is made up.

3. If one can’t attack the data, attack the people. It is easier.

4. Do one’s research by proclamation rather than investigation. It is much easier, and nobody will know the difference anyway.

Many major media people will concede that if indeed aliens are visiting earth, that would be a major story. But because they take great pride in their KNOWLEDGE of major stories, if this were happening they would know about it. But they don’t. Therefore, anybody who says visits are real must be a crackpot.

I have noted four major reasons why the big names in science and journalism haven’t jumped on the pro-UFO bandwagon:

1. Ignorance of the data. Scratch a debunker and one usually finds somebody who is putting down what he is not up on.

2. Fear of ridicule in sponsoring a thesis (only about ten have been submitted relating to UFOs) if a professor, or sponsoring a detailed reportorial investigation if an editor. I check all my audiences and find that, while in agreement with polls, 10% have had a sighting but only 5-10% of these witnesses have been willing to report what they saw. Biggest reason? Fear of ridicule.

3. Ego. If aliens were visiting Earth, they would call a press conference or ask to talk to the National Academy of Sciences. They haven’t, so aliens must not be visiting. Flying saucers finish the *** Copernicus started in taking man out of the middle of the universe. Priests fought Copernicus’s ideas. Today guys in lab coats, rather than priestly robes, fight alien visitations.

4. Failure to use our knowledge of technology to understand UFO behavior. They say “It is impossible,” rather than “I don’t know how.” Despite the absurd claims of certain ancient academics and fossilized physicists, it is clear on the basis of solid engineering studies that trips to nearby stars are feasible with round trip times shorter than the average person’s lifetime — using, for example, staged fission and fusion propulsion systems. I have worked on both. It’s clear that technological progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable way. The history of science is littered with challenges, leveled by people who know nothing about the *** at hand, against traditionally “impossible” claims.

The cult of S.E.T.I. (Silly Effort To Investigate) with its crazy notions that nobody would travel — but that aliens, stuck at the level of radio, are trying to attract our attention — mocks the notion of flying saucers, not by dealing with the evidence, but by proclamations about the ABSENCE of evidence. This ignores science.

I prove at every lecture that the NSA and CIA are withholding UFO data. Having worked under security for fourteen years, visited seventeen document archives, and having become aware of the huge black budgets of the NSA, NRO, CIA, DIA, etc., I know how easy it is to keep secrets. My nineteen years of study about crashed saucers, and thirteen years on the Majestic-12 documents have convinced me these are real. The challenge for us all, as we enter the new millennium, is to recognize that while our future is in space, we are not alone. I truly hope we qualify for admission to the Cosmic Kindergarten.

Stanton Friedman

[pilgrim1411]

Billy Cooper, who was murdered, worked for naval intelligence for I think 18 years. He saw a craft fly into the ocean waters when he was on a ship. He was ordered never to tell anyone. Read his book:

BEHOLD A PALE HORSE.

This book is the number 1 stolen book from book stores in New York city.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

Billy Cooper, who was murdered, worked for naval intelligence for I think 18 years. He saw a craft fly into the ocean waters when he was on a ship. He was ordered never to tell anyone. Read his book:

BEHOLD A PALE HORSE.

This book is the number 1 stolen book from book stores in New York city.

You seem to be repeating the same M.O. of either linking or referencing a work without specific commentary. The post earlier is not something I would flag the administration about in violation of rule 6 (Filling up the board with large amounts of pasted material (this includes large pictures)) because I have seen a lot larger amounts posted where the violation caused the copy and paste to be administratively edited to zero.
However, your lack of personal commentary reveals nothing to me in regards to how well you have digested the information and articulate it in your own words.

I just want you to personally grow in defending your faith. It is good to read lots of books, you may gain a lot of personal knowledge by photosynthesis in a figurative sense. There comes a time though where you develop your own voice and your conviction while agreeing with many others, is articulated as your own conviction and not someone else whom you may have some disagreements with in other areas.

[alanmolstad]

nope guys....its all just a bunch of scary campfire stories and fuzzy photos.....

Not squat for real proof!

Just a fun story to tell,,,perhaps a bit spooky, perhaps feeding into the anti-government feelings of some who were tempted to believe any story anyway.....

But as for any real proof?.....zip, nothing, zero......

No one has ever stood up and held something in his hands and said, "This could not have been made by our civilization"....

nope...

So this means that if you are one of them people that really have a deep personal need to believe no matter what, then you will have to satisfy yourself with your proof being just a bunch of stories to tell around the camp fire.

because that's all you got....

[pilgrim1411]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope guys....its all just a bunch of scary campfire stories and fuzzy photos.....

Not squat for real proof!

Just a fun story to tell,,,perhaps a bit spooky, perhaps feeding into the anti-government feelings of some who were tempted to believe any story anyway.....

But as for any real proof?.....zip, nothing, zero......

No one has ever stood up and held something in his hands and said, "This could not have been made by our civilization"....

nope...

So this means that if you are one of them people that really have a deep personal need to believe no matter what, then you will have to satisfy yourself with your proof being just a bunch of stories to tell around the camp fire.

because that's all you got....

I know what I witnessed, and I know what the data says. I don't draw conclusions prior to examination. You shouldn't either. When Walter debated Madalyn Murray O'Hair, he told her that a lawyer is always willing to look at the evidence. That is my advice to you. Also, Walter believed in UFO's. He saw one once. I used to have his c***ette "UFO's: Friend, Foe or Fantasy."

[pilgrim1411]

I do believe the UFO phenomena is demonic.

[alanmolstad]

again....on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand.

men have looked at funny odd things in the night sky for millions of years.

But it always turns out to be just nothing...but even a little bit of uncertainty in the mind of an amateur can be more than enough to feed an active imagination.

A falling star becomes a angel sent from heaven to earth...

A weather balloon becomes a visitor from Mars.

A reflection in a car window becomes absolute proof of extraterrestrials...


But is that any real proof?....no.
There has never been even the slightest offering of real proof.

All the UFO nuts have are stories...and fuzz photos.

Its the same for the nuts that believe in Bigfoot....(great stories and fuzzy photos)

and its the same for the nuts that believe in the Loch Ness monster ....

all they ever got is some great stories to tell around the campfire while you sip peppermint schnapps.....and fuzzy photos...

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again....on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand.

men have looked at funny odd things in the night sky for millions of years.

But it always turns out to be just nothing...but even a little bit of uncertainty in the mind of an amateur can be more than enough to feed an active imagination.

A falling star becomes a angel sent from heaven to earth...

A weather balloon becomes a visitor from Mars.

A reflection in a car window becomes absolute proof of extraterrestrials...


But is that any real proof?....no.
There has never been even the slightest offering of real proof.

All the UFO nuts have are stories...and fuzz photos.

Its the same for the nuts that believe in Bigfoot....(great stories and fuzzy photos)

and its the same for the nuts that believe in the Loch Ness monster ....

all they ever got is some great stories to tell around the campfire while you sip peppermint schnapps.....and fuzzy photos...

We are not talking about the obvious exaggerations which consist of 80% or more of "sightings." With all that out of the way, I would like to limit this discussion on the evidences which are truly hard to discern (if indeed you have investigated any of that). I personally would like to eliminate ***ertions based solely on subjective opinion, and limit the discussion to evidences and ideas that the experts on the subject are still debating about.

Don't you think that the statement "on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand" is a bit exaggerative? If you really believe this, can you prove it by evidence, since this is your ***ertion? Can you go out some night and take some pictures of things you see that you don't understand and post them? This should be relatively easy for you, since "on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand". Are you willing to admit this statement is exaggerative, or can you prove it with evidence?
TD

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

Don't you think that the statement "on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand" is a bit exaggerative?

Nope its a fact...

On any given night you can walk outside with your child, and sooner or later that child will ask you some questions that you simply don't know the answer for.

you glance up and see a light moving across the sky.....what is it...
a satellite?
a jet?
a weather balloon?
I dont know...its just a light in the sky that moves.

To me its a mystery that I don't understand, but to others its 100% proof that this world is being visited by men from mars...

100s years ago men looked up at the stars and noticed that while most stars stayed in their locations, some stars moved...and some stars turned around and moved backwards?...and some stars fell out of where they were hanging?

To come up with answers we find books and all sorts of stories about different reasons why such things happened.

My point is that on any night it is normal to see things in the night sky that might cause you to stop and ask, "What is that?".....but that just because we might see something that we cant answer about right away it is no reason to go off all crazy and invent stories of men from mars, or angels falling from heaven.

[alanmolstad]

so,,,is there any proof that UFOs are space visitors?....no

There is nothing to support such ideas.
All there is that is "called proof" are campfire stories.

all the photos of UFOs are always fuzzy.

No person ever stood up with something in their hands and said., "its from a spaceship"

Nope....all they got are some spooky stories to tell around the campfire while drinking some beers, and fuzzy photos.....

[pilgrim1411]

alanmolstad,

You obviously have never studied the primary sources. You can make ***ertions all day. There have been over 2,000 Bigfoot sightings in North America, but zero Spiderman sightings. If they are in the same category (non-existent), than the evidence for Bigfoot would be exactly identical with that of Spiderman.

With regard to UFO's, you are not even qualified to have an educated opinion because you don't have enough information. You haven't studied the data.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

alanmolstad,

You obviously have never studied the primary sources. You can make ***ertions all day. There have been over 2,000 Bigfoot sightings in North America, but zero Spiderman sightings. If they are in the same category (non-existent), than the evidence for Bigfoot would be exactly identical with that of Spiderman.

With regard to UFO's, you are not even qualified to have an educated opinion because you don't have enough information. You haven't studied the data.

Pilgrim, Thats silly....

Every year more people claim to be Jesus Christ compared to the number of people that claim to be Hitler.
|But that does not prove squat!.......

The only truth is this:
That all UFO so-called "proof" as well as the so-called BigFoot "proof", is all based on the same one thing in common....They are both based on fuzzy photos and campfire stories and nothing else!


NOTHING else!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

alanmolstad,

You obviously have never studied the primary sources. You can make ***ertions all day. There have been over 2,000 Bigfoot sightings in North America, but zero Spiderman sightings. If they are in the same category (non-existent), than the evidence for Bigfoot would be exactly identical with that of Spiderman.

With regard to UFO's, you are not even qualified to have an educated opinion because you don't have enough information. You haven't studied the data.

I have looked at what is there to be found.
If you have one single case you think is 'real" then show it!

You got a single photo that is proven to be a space ship UFO or not?



Here is the truth on all this stuff.
Back when I was a kid in the 70s there were lots of photos and stories about UFO and Lake monsters.
But that was also back when not everyone had high quality cameras.

That was back when a short 8mm movie about Bigfoot would get people all excited....


But times have changed!

We now live in a worls where almost every person on earth has on them at all times a very high quality camera.
We also live in a time when because of the internet, many people who are experts from all parts of the earth can put to the test any video or photo that someone might say is of a UFO>


and the result?

The result is that photos of UFOs have dropped off the radar....
You never see any new videos of what people claim is a sea monster, or Bigfoot, or a UFO anymore.


You dont see any updated Photos or videos because it has become way too easy for people to put such things to the test and show that are FAKE!

[alanmolstad]

and....


One thing to keep in mind right now is - That we now live in an age where every person on the earth has on their person a Hi-def camera.
The modern cell phone has grown so popular that its now a standard part of every humans life in most all the parts of the world.

And with this, we have seen how many High-def cell phone photos of UFOs?


ZERO?



This is also truewith other things like "Bigfoot"
back in the day where the only camers were the ones with film we would see people showing the media photos that showed fuzzy shotsof Bigfoot, or monsters in lakes, or UFOs in the sky.

But we dont see anyone claiming to have a photo taken by a modern cell phone cameras of the same things anymore.
And do you know why?

No one knows yet how to fake them easy.
People have tried, but because everything you do on a computer or on a camera tends to leave a tel-tail footprint, we just dont see the many faked photos anymore like we used to back in the 60s and 70s

[alanmolstad]

Update to this topic:

within the last month there was a bit of a stir caused by the new video showing a UFO being followed by a airplane.

While we all can wish this was a true case of a UFO from another world, we also have to admit it sufferes from the same problem all photos and videos of Bigfoot suffer from.

They are all are fuzzy....
Just never a clear video...

Billions of great cameras in the hands of billions of people on this earth....and all we ever see is the most fuzzy photos and videos of what could just as well be a toy hanging from a string.

[alanmolstad]

test
one two three

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

I do believe the UFO phenomena is demonic.

I dont actually believe that people really 'see" things,
Well, except for things that can be explained.

What i mean is that i dont thing people are seeing demons, or spirits.

People may see lights in the sky...but thats fine, there is a lot of rock up there to see.

However for the most part, I believe that mostly what is going on are fake sightings..invented to sound correct....but just invented all the same.

a few people see falling stars...or make a mistake at what they see....
But in the end..no one stands up and holds something up in their hands as real solid proof and says, "This fell off a UFO from another world"

[reality10]

This is a fascinating topic to me because I happen to have an interest in space/astronomy.

Before I go into my thoughts on UFOs, I want to begin by stating (as an Evangelical Christian Believer saved by the blood of Christ) that contrary to what many others believe, I do not subscribe to the belief that other life possibly existing on another planet is a contradiction to what scripture teaches. Quite frankly, from what I have found in my studies, the scripture is silent about life on any other planet except this one. But, that does not mean that it doesn't exist. On the flip side, that silence does not mean that there is life on another planet either. To the plain point, we simply do not know and may never know this side of heaven and that might just be how God wanted it.

Now, having said that, I also want to be very clear about my belief that In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth. (Genesis 1:1) The "heavens" in this context (and Hebrew translation of Genesis 1:1) meaning the "cosmos"...i.e., "space". Therefore, if there IS life on another planet, God is also the God of that life as well. Evolutionists would like us to believe that the discovery of life on another planet would automatically void the teaching of the scripture. Nothing could be further from the truth. God's said in Isaiah 45:12
It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts. God also said in Genesis 1:16
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.. So, if there is life on another planet, God created that life also and is Lord over it just as he is Lord over us on Earth.

Now (rambling over). What are UFOs? Quite simple. We don't know. I will say this, I don't believe they are "fake" (at least not all of them). But the reality is, nobody (at least as far as we know) really knows what a "UFO" really is. After all, "UFO" stands for "Unidentified Flying Object". If we knew they were alien spacecraft, they would no longer be called "UFOs". But, to this day, they are still a mystery. All we can do is speculate....and speculate I will also. I believe (as others have said on this thread) that they are demonic in nature. Many reasons why this is a reasonable conclusion that I will not speak long windedly on. However, I will share with you a youtube channel that I ran across by accident recently that really made me more certain of it.

In the following youtube channel, you will see a very interesting individual who seems to have a theme within his life. That theme being, he appears obsessed with paranormal activity (spiritism) and UFOlogy. Coincidence? I tend to think not.

Check out his story (somewhat sad story) and watch his videos....

http://youtube.com/timw1959

I got the shivers the first time I browsed through it. This channel made me all the more convinced that UFOs are demonic in nature. Here is a guy who tinkers with spiritism and the results included is UFO activity.

Check it out for yourselves and give me your thoughts.

[MichaellS]

Woe, God knows for sure and tdidymas may have been absent for some time now but hope his paranormal interest has taken on new endeavors.

I like the approach here – alot! I’m with you as far a possible proof of the above occurring with the exception of a last worst-case possibility.

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

I do believe the UFO phenomena is demonic.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont actually believe that people really 'see" things,
Well, except for things that can be explained.

What i mean is that i dont thing people are seeing demons, or spirits.

Originally Posted by reality10

This channel made me all the more convinced that UFOs are demonic in nature. Here is a guy who tinkers with spiritism and the results included is UFO activity.

Check it out for yourselves and give me your thoughts.

I think there is both a pro & con to this. By that I mean from scripture’s outlook is in support of Alan’s refusals outside of this distant “evidence”.

There is so much dedicated for us to not being deceived by any man. You know the story on evidence from time to time today that an American court will not allow digital anything visually as evidence, only film. Extreme levels of craft have played into our lives like ducks on-a-pond, money being the bench-rest.

I still believe the Lord cares for the flock, where is written that those “signs” (Luke 21:25) will occur in perplexing proportions against God’s people? The Church is given escape by prayer:

“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:34-36)

Just because we are His, it doesn’t exclude us from battles along the way, which are also His. But to re-inspect the record what happened to the Lord as He was indeed “taken” (Mt 4:8). If we want a defense for this not occurring at any given time under the permission of God the Father, nor think it’s possibility of being a physical transport, I would think a little elusive, it otherwise remains pretty much an impossibility.

Goodness me, if he can change himself into an "angel of light" (II Corinthians 11:14) and have another "seven sons of Sceva" (Acts 19) physical encouter with a demon, why such a stretch for someting in this realm?

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

hope his paranormal interest has taken on new endeavors.

I came back for a peek...

So, not sure why you say this about me, or how you judge me based on my posts. You think I am overly interested in the paranormal?
TD

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

I came back for a peek...

So, not sure why you say this about me, or how you judge me based on my posts. You think I am overly interested in the paranormal?
TD

Hi, No, and no, I don't know you. But am glad there is other current at work, I think, ,

[tdidymas]

Pilgrim, I read up on the abduction stories you cited. As typical of those type stories, there is much conflict in both evidence and testimony. I believe that several different explanations are possible, even if not likely - conspiracy of lies (hoax), hallucination, demonization, or something else. From my view, the Walton story appears more hoaxy, whereas the Hill story appears more hallucinatory. Like I said before, it's in the way the story is told.

I also saw the series on the Arizona Lights, and although the report appears fairly objective, it will take much more than the evidence presented there to convince me of any possibility of it being a paranormal or extraterrestrial event. I am skeptical of such things like this, and tend to believe them to be unexplainable, but natural occurances.
TD