What are the requirements to be a Christian?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

BTW, what site did you cut and paste from?

Again, the central core idea expressed my Walter Martin is about ONLY the resurrection of Jesus Christ...that is alone and the ONLY thing he is talking about that makes us Christian.

If you don't see that fact?...better go listen again.....its there.

as for how did I find that link?....I did a GOOGLE search.

Here is the results of another GOOGLE search - http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/rom10_9.htm

This is what im pointing to as being the reason and the way we become Christian....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

A Christian in the NT is somebody who believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the WORLD. That he was incarnate Deity.That he died on the cross in the place of our sins; that his blood was atonement for our sins; that he rose bodily from the grave and ascended to heaven; and that he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Now read what I said......

"The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrection is, and you will be fine.
"

You are seeking to find errors in my posts that are not there...
I have posted the core teaching of the Christian church as clearly as I can....I dont know what else i could say to make this more simple to understand.

so at this point it falls to the reader of my words to make the effort or not to get out of it what i put there to get out ...or not....

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now read what I said......

"The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrection is, and you will be fine.
"

You are seeking to find errors in my posts that are not there...
I have posted the core teaching of the Christian church as clearly as I can....I dont know what else i could say to make this more simple to understand.

so at this point it falls to the reader of my words to make the effort or not to get out of it what i put there to get out ...or not....

I'm not sure why you wrote all that or where you cut and pasted from. So you think that belief in the Resurrection is the ONLY requirement in order to be a Christian? What about repentance? What about confessing that Christ is Lord? What about accepting His blood sacrifice? Do any of those things matter?

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now read what I said......

[B][I][COLOR="Red"]"The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

..

So its ok for mormons to believe in a pantheon of gods? Its ok that they teach that God was once a man? Its ok that they teach men can become gods? Its ok that works are necessary for salvation? Its ok that they have other books which contradict what the bible teaches?

In other words, Alan, Mormonism is fine as long as they believe in Jesus Christ and acknowledge that he was resurrected? We can just disregard all the other false doctrines?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

I'm not sure why you wrote all that or where you cut and pasted from?....

What?

my post?

I wrote it.
The whole thing from start to finish is just something i wrote off the top of my head this morning when i felt in the mood to write a longer post.

I felt at the time that this topic went WAY , WAY, off-track there for a while, and so i wanted to reintroduce the concept of the christian teaching about how to be a "christian" and also address many concerns a Mormon might have about seeing the truth of this central Christian doctrine and what it would mean to their Mormon faith....


However i did use the dots "..." and that might give the reader that I was quoting something when actually.....um....I just like the way the dots "..." look on my screen.

Sorry if it was the dots "..." that gave you the idea that i was doing a copy/paste thingy...

I NEVER do that copy/paste stuff, I find it a sign of a lazy poster....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

So you think that belief in the Resurrection is the ONLY requirement in order to be a Christian? ......

The only reason we are Christian is not that we feel sorry for our errors....

The only reason we are Christian is not because we believe that Jesus died.....

The only reason we are Christians is not because we want to try to lead a more moral life...

Rather, its the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If a person has all kinds of screwed up views about God and the world, yet still believe in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and in His resurrection, he is still saved.

He is still a "Christian"

For he has responded to the one true "light" we are given to be saved.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

In other words, Alan, Mormonism is fine as long as they believe in Jesus Christ and acknowledge that he was resurrected? We can just disregard all the other false doctrines?

its like Im talking and my voice hits the wind and thats it...no effect...nothing lasts...nothing changes at all....

I can only say again what i have said before.
That the only thing that makes us Christian is the resurrection of Jesus christ.

The true resurrection of the true Jesus Christ.
...Not the Jesus of Islam...not the Jesus of Buddhism....not the Jesus of the atheist.....not the Jesus of the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses, not the Jesus of the any other source but the Bible....

The ONLY thing, the only requirement to being a Christian is to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[alanmolstad]

remember, we are not called "Christian" because we are "monotheists"
For there are also many other religions that are monotheist.

We are not called "Christian" because we don't believe God evolved...for there are many other religions that also hold that god did not evolve too.


we are not called "Christians" because we dont believe we will become little gods one day. for there are many other religions that also teach that men do not become gods...


so why are we "christian"?

We are Christian because we believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What?

my post?

I wrote it.
The whole thing from start to finish is just something i wrote off the top of my head this morning when i felt in the mood to write a longer post.

I felt at the time that this topic went WAY , WAY, off-track there for a while, and so i wanted to reintroduce the concept of the christian teaching about how to be a "christian" and also address many concerns a Mormon might have about seeing the truth of this central Christian doctrine and what it would mean to their Mormon faith....



However i did use the dots "..." and that might give the reader that I was quoting something when actually.....um....I just like the way the dots "..." look on my screen.

Sorry if it was the dots "..." that gave you the idea that i was doing a copy/paste thingy...

I NEVER do that copy/paste stuff, I find it a sign of a lazy poster....

Interesting post Alan and yes I agree we were off track in not discussing Mormonism on this and a few other threads. However, when a Christian is trying to teach others, the Holy Bible must be our sole standard for truth since God is the only source for Truth. We can get into trouble when we throw out a verse here and a verse there to try and make our case., We need to make sure that what we believe is completely scriptural. If one is going to preach about regeneration or being born again, then one needs to know what the whole bible teaches on it. Sometimes unsound doctrines float around on these forums and someone calls it out and it temporally "derails" the thread. But it is necessary to correct errors. Its not attacking the person, but its taking a stand for God's word.

God will regenerate anyone who believes in Jesus and make that person His child. Anyone can receive Christ by believing in His name, and as many as do, God gives them the right to become His children. Thus, believing in Christ comes before regeneration. It is very important that those who are reading this forum understand this.


Although unregenerate people are dead in their sins, numerous scriptures tell us spiritually dead people can choose to humble themselves and repent, especially while they are under the influence of the gracious drawing of God’s Spirit. God’s drawing, however, never forces anyone to repent, nor does it change anyone’s will apart from the consent of his heart. This is the Holy Bible teaches.

[alanmolstad]

the way I look at Mormons...

They have fallen into a shaft, and are stuck down there.
I can drop a rope down to them.
The rope is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

yes, when they climb out they may be a bit dusty...But there will be a time later to dust off the remains of other Mormon teachings that still cling to them.

but there are safe.
They are saved, they are out of danger.

yes, they may still have a totally screwed up idea about God and the nature of the universe and Mormon history, but thats all side-issues...all just window dressings...they are things that can come and go or not,..,.I dont care.

The only important thing is that the Mormon has found the true resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Thats all that matters....for in finding that they have life.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

All the rest of the Mormon stuff is just window dressing...(the temple, the handshakes, the undies, the many wives, the BOM etc)...all meaningless in the end.

It is only the resurrection of Jesus Christ that makes us what we call "christian"


NOTHING ELSE!

There is no other set of things you must believe in to be saved or be called a christian.
There is no other "Good News" that you have to believe in.

( FYI - When it comes to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, a Christian does NOT have to take a position on it and pick a side.)

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrection is, and you will be fine.

The moment you believe in Jesus you are saved.
Its a done deal...
Its a completed journey from death into Life.

The moment you believe in the resurrection you have already p***ed from death to life.
You are as "saved" as you are ever going to get...
You cant get more saved.

The point of what Im saying is that many Mormons, (or all of em perhaps?) have a lot of family connections and personal affection for many of the things that are different in Mormonism.
They love the songs, they love the friends and family they have in Mormonism, they love the trappings of their church.
My response is that all that stuff is just window dressing, if it means a lot to you? fine you can hang onto it if you want....its not important....

All that stuff is not concerned with the question of being a true "Christian" or not?

All that is important is that the Mormons have changed their ideas about the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that is the only real issue with their salvation.

The Mormons teach a different Jesus
The Mormons teach a different resurrection.
That is where the problem is....

all the rest of the stuff that separates the Mormons from the Christian is window dressing,,,,,its simple additions that are well within the freedom of the christian church to debate and disagree over...

So I'm not interested in the debate over if this or that Mormon leader predicted a date that failed.....its not important.

I'm not interested in showing a Mormon that his church used to be as racist (as much other white churches from that same time and place).....its not important.

I'm not interested in showing a Mormon that the Book of Mormon has a questionable source....its not important.

The only thing important is that the Mormon church and it's leadership have strayed away from the truth Jesus Christ....they have walked away from the only core teaching the christian church has....that being the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So I tell the Mormon that they can continue worshiping where they want I dont care.
I dont care if they want to always worship at the local Mormon church,
the Utah Mormon temple,
outside under a tree,
or underground in a catacomb....thats not important..

The only thing I do care about is "who" they worship....and "what" did that person whom they worship do?

That the Salvation of the Christian is due only to the faith we have in the resurrection of the truth one-and-only Jesus Christ.

Now take another run at reading my address of this issue, and see if this time you don't find much agreement with it's statement about the simple faith that makes us all Christians

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the way I look at Mormons...

They have fallen into a shaft, and are stuck down there.
I can drop a rope down to them.
The rope is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

yes, when they climb out they may be a bit dusty...But there will be a time later to dust off the remains of other Mormon teachings that still cling to them.

but there are safe.
They are saved, they are out of danger.

yes, they may still have a totally screwed up idea about God and the nature of the universe and Mormon history, but thats all side-issues...all just window dressings...they are things that can come and go or not,..,.I dont care.

The only important thing is that the Mormon has found the true resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Thats all that matters....for in finding that they have life.

Although the resurrection is very important, Christ's atonement on the cross made possible the remission of sins.. However, we cannot exclude the importance of repentance and saving faith.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is this: .that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time..."

1 Cor. 15:2-6

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

No one can come to Christ. God does it all. Is this your view?

A person who is spiritually dead will never seek out Christ on his own unless spiritually awakened. Regeneration is the work of God which is followed by conversion (faith and repentance) done by the person.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The only reason we are Christian is not that we feel sorry for our errors....

The only reason we are Christian is not because we believe that Jesus died.....

The only reason we are Christians is not because we want to try to lead a more moral life...

Rather, its the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If a person has all kinds of screwed up views about God and the world, yet still believe in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and in His resurrection, he is still saved.

He is still a "Christian"

For he has responded to the one true "light" we are given to be saved.

Alan, can I tell you my viewpoint on this from a mother? If my kids didn't think anything I said mattered, only that I am their mother, I would have a hard time with it.

Let's say I tell my children to eat healthy and I even cook a good meal for them, but they pick and choose off their plate and then head off to Taco Bell.

Then I tell them to head to bed early and get enough sleep, but they stay up playing video games instead and sleep in.

Then I tell them to work hard in school, but instead they ditch cl*** and go hang out with their friends instead and I have to hound them to do their homework which if they do, they don't bother to turn in.

Then I tell them to love their siblings and not to fight, but they tease each other and pick on each other.

Then Mother's Day rolls around and they tell me how much they love me and honor me and they are so glad I am their mother.

I know I love them and I know they believe they love me---but my heart is aching. Personally, I would rather that they eat well, sleep well, work hard in school and love each other than to shower their praises at me. Because by their actions, I would know that they trust and love me.

Your definition of a Christian reminds me much of the same. If we believe that all that is necessary to be a Christian is to believe that Christ died and was resurrected, we miss believing Christ Himself and what He said. And just like the mother, I am sure His heart aches if we think we are "saved" by this standard.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

However, we cannot exclude the importance of repentance and saving faith.

We are not saved just because we feel remorse at past sins...
We are not saved because we repent of our sins and want to do better next time.
For the whole world is filled with religions that teach about how deal with guilt and how to do better next time.

But we are free of sin's effect because we believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That's it.
That's enough.

This means that the whole rest of the bible except for the story of the Resurrection of Christ could be a lie, and it would not matter, we still would have a valid true faith and a valid way to seek salvation.

this means also the opposite, that if the story of the resurrection of Christ is a myth, then it does not matter that the whole rest of the bible is true or not. We would be without hope, and we still would die in our sins....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

First of all, you don't understand what regeneration is. Its the same as being born again.

Regeneration is born again. I have said this repeatedly. We obviously have a different understanding of regeneration. I have told you what I think it is now you tell me what you think it is.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Alan, can I tell you my viewpoint on this from a mother? .

where sin abounds, grace all the more abounds....
Does a mother love her child only when it is sleeping quietly?

or.....

Does a mother prove her worth the most when her child is sick, when her child is hear broken, when her child needs forgiveness the most?

The point of what Im saying is that there is a lot of different points where I disagree strongly with the Mormon church on its teachings.
There is a list a mile long of the issues I have with the official Mormon teachings that I believe are in error.

Yet I also have to keep one more thing in mind at all times....

That being that all these disagreements I have are the window dressings and are not all that important.

and that the only important matter is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am a Christian because i believe in the resurrection.
take away all the other things i believe in, but leave me my view of the resurrection and Im still a saved Christian.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

God's salvation is available to ALL men. Not all men want it.

You are right. People who are spiritually dead do not want anything to do with God. No one seeks after God, no not one. Now care to at least address the verses?

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

According to these verses why didn't those who were following Christ believe?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

where sin abounds, grace all the more abounds....
Does a mother love her child only when it is sleeping quietly?

or.....

Does a mother prove her worth the most when her child is sick, when her child is hear broken, when her child needs forgiveness the most?

The point of what Im saying is that there is a lot of different points where I disagree strongly with the Mormon church on its teachings.
There is a list a mile long of the issues I have with the official Mormon teachings that I believe are in error.

Yet I also have to keep one more thing in mind at all times....

That being that all these disagreements I have are the window dressings and are not all that important.

and that the only important matter is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am a Christian because i believe in the resurrection.
take away all the other things i believe in, but leave me my view of the resurrection and Im still a saved Christian.

A mother loves her child even when they are acting out and being terrible--I basically said that--she will keep working and trying. But we can ***ume that Christ is the ultimate Christian. The problem I have is that we are using this discussion to focus on a set of beliefs or even on Christ's behavior, but we are ignoring our own or what it is to be a Christian. You are Christian because you believe in the resurrection, I believe I am Christian because I LOVE Christ. And if we love Christ, we love each other and stop trying to decide who is "in" with Christ and who is "out" with Christ. And to those who profess to believe in Christ but do not show the love of Christ, I say, that is not Christian.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

....... If we believe that all that is necessary to be a Christian is to believe that Christ died and was resurrected, .......

You stand at the door of your faith.
You are either opening it up wide , or you are shutting it tight.

Its hard to tell sometimes what a person is doing....

The decision depends a lot on the type of faith your church is pushing.
if its a faith of rules and secrets, and hidden knowledge?...then you got to watch who tries to open the door of your church....

There are Christians that make all kinds of rules for new Christians to follow....they put up all kinds of hurtles that must be overcome in their path...they put one road block in front of another as the person walks to their Lord.

They do so, and then pat themselves on the back for keeping the riff-raff out.

Im just saying that the only thing that actually matters to being a Christian, the only thing that actually matters to God, is if a person has faith in the resurrection of His Son or not?

Nothing else is equal to this question.
Fail it, and nothing else you do correct in your life matters.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

New birth CANNOT precede faith.

Conversion = Faith and repentance

Regeneration = spiritual awakening

These are distinct en***ies.

When is a person saved? After conversion or after regeneration?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

You know Billy, its always the cults, or those who teach false doctrines that believe only certain people can be saved.

So will you officially go on record stating that ALL those who hold to the Reformed position are a cult and not true Christians?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The problem I have is that we are using this discussion to focus on a set of beliefs or even on Christ's behavior, ......

Yes, this is what I hope to point out to you.

My being saved is not the result of my feelings of Love of God....nor my feelings of love to my fellow man.

My being saved is not dependent on my acting in a nice way, nor am i kept saved because i didn't break any Old test commandments today.

Im not saved due to any ability I have to do or say the right thing during the day.

Im not saved because I was able to p*** a written test on doctrine.

Why am I saved?
Im saved only because I profess faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You stand at the door of your faith.
You are either opening it up wide , or you are shutting it tight.

Its hard to tell sometimes what a person is doing....

The decision depends a lot on the type of faith your church is pushing.
if its a faith of rules and secrets, and hidden knowledge?...then you got to watch who tries to open the door of your church....

There are Christians that make all kinds of rules for new Christians to follow....they put up all kinds of hurtles that must be overcome in their path...they put one road block in front of another as the person walks to their Lord.

They do so, and then pat themselves on the back for keeping the riff-raff out.

Im just saying that the only thing that actually matters to being a Christian, the only thing that actually matters to God, is if a person has faith in the resurrection of His Son or not?

Nothing else is equal to this question.
Fail it, and nothing else you do correct in your life matters.

Okay, Alan, I believe in the resurrection of Christ. I believe in it so strongly, that on my death-bed (had a near death experience) I was at peace.

All of these rules you see--all these "road blocks"--they are not road blocks--they are the same type of things I tell my children that I know will make them happy. Some would say I am the meanest mom around--making my kids eat their vegetables, making them clean the house, telling them when it is time to go to bed and giving consequences when they don't listen to me. I don't do this because I want to make their lives miserable or make it hard for them to love me, I do it because I know ultimately what will make them happy. Of course, they always have agency as to whether to listen to me or not.

Alan, you perceive my religion in a way that is not so. You have stereotyped me and my beliefs. If you want to know how I feel about it or what it is like, you can ask me.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Yes, this is what I hope to point out to you.

My being saved is not the result of my feelings of Love of God....nor my feelings of love to my fellow man.

My being saved is not dependent on my acting in a nice way, nor am i kept saved because i didn't break any Old test commandments today.

Im not saved due to any ability I have to do or say the right thing during the day.

Im not saved because I was able to p*** a written test on doctrine.

Why am I saved?
Im saved only because I profess faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

And to think that Mormons think differently is to stereotype us. I also believe that without the atonement (and resurrection) of Christ, anything I do is futile. While that has been said numerous times on this thread by numerous Mormons, it appears that those who left the church either never got that, or have bought into some stereotyped belief out there as to what Mormons believe.