What are the requirements to be a Christian?

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And I completely disagree with you. Mormons call themselves Christian. Christians tell Mormons that they are not Christian. Isn't this one of the most important topics that could be discussed on the Mormon board?

I agree with you. How can it hurt to discuss, with LDS people, the various lists of requirements for becoming a Christian that people have? Maybe we will all figure out which list is the most correct one.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

(if you're a Christian, then regardless how many gods and lords there are, and regardless where they are--on Earth, or up in heaven--to you there is only one God (Jesus' Father) and to you there is only one Lord (Jesus).

Thanks.


LDS doctrine is that there never was a time when there were not gods--there never was an initial "big bang" that started the race of spirit-based beings that we are part of.


Very good. Not just a lord: To LDS, Jesus is our Lord partly because He led the forces of good against those of Lucifer in the war in heaven, partly because of His atonement and death for us making Him our Savior, and partly because His destiny is to rule over this planet during the millennium, etc. But He is also the glorified, only begotten Son of God in whom there is no sin and in whom all of His Father's virtues are evident, which makes Jesus a God--just not "the greatest." Jesus said "My Father is greater than I."

I am happy to answer any other questions from you, since you seem sincere and honest and perceptive.

Dear Hopeful,
You made a point here but the wrong one because you do err not understanding what the scriptures teach. When Jesus said that he was not greater than the Father, it was due to the fact that he layed down his glory in order to come to earth and take on a physical body...that is what he meant in that p***age but you want to make it something it isn't and never was meant to be.
There is ONLY ONE GOD! Mormonism wants to accept the idea that there are many and you will become one someday by living ALL the laws and ordinances of your religion. The flaw with that idea is, God has told us in Isaiah that He knows of no other gods. If this is so, than how can there be others and why wouldn't God know of them? If God progressed to being a God, is there not a god whom he must worship too? See, this is only becoming tiresome to think about. To have eternal increase that ALL Mormons wish to attain, means being a god, having many wives, having sex with those wives so they can bear many, many spirit babies to populate the world you will create. Where in the Bible does it teach eternal increase? This is the very subject I argued over with my father when I was 14. I never accepted that doctrine and it began my journey of doubting JS as well.
As I've shared with you and hopefully in a respectful manner, I still keep you in my prayers for wisdom and for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to God's truths. May today be that day. God loves you, He is with you every where you go.

[jdjhere]

HopefulSaint:
I dont want to have any misunderstandings here so this is how it is for me
I am a sincere seeker of Truth. I am a born again Christian thanks to what Jesus Christ did for me on the cross and NOTHING that I have done or can do. I believe I have found all the Truth I will ever need in Christ alone and it burns in my heart constantly. HE BOUGHT ME by his sacrificial love and I cannot repay Him so I try to obey Him. I dont make it all the time so I ask for forgiveness. I ask you questions because I want your beliefs to be out there in writing so we can all see it and understand it. I disagree with it to my very core but respect the right for you to believe it. Thank God we live in the United States where there IS freedom to believe what you want. You are a person that Jesus Christ died for as much as He died for me or anyone else here and He loved you enough that if you were the only person needing to be saved He would have died for just you. You also seem like a sincere person seeking Truth but your belief about Jesus Christ's iden***y is so far from mine that we could (probably) never agree on many things because I do not believe you have identified Him correctly. WHO IS HE??? He is the King of ALL Kings, Lord of ALL Lords, the Alpha and Omega, Creator of ALL things (US), died for US... yet as me being a gentile you tell me He is NOT my God and only the Father is?? Thats strange language. I can only say if you have a burning in the bosom I have a burning in my Heart constantly that Jesus isJEHOVAH God, the Son, MY Savior and the ONLY God with which I will have to do because I believe He IS the ONLY God. So, I ask questions to understand your beliefs and because I respect you as a person and my God loves you. I dont NEED Joseph Smith to tell me I can enter Heaven because Jesus is the Gate and NO ONE comes to the Father but by Him, not Joseph. I hope this clears up my position a little. I try to be kind and ask questions to learn what you believe, that is all, and I do not mean to offend you but my belief is SO strong I KNOW it is the Truth so if it offends you, so be it.

[jdjhere]

Websters Definition of a polytheist:

belief in or worship of more than one god

Since you believe there is more than one God, by Websters definition, you are a polytheist and I am a monotheist. This causes BIG issues for us because both cannot be true simultaneously.

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Websters Definition of a polytheist:

belief in or worship of more than one god

Since you believe there is more than one God, by Websters definition, you are a polytheist

That much is accurate. I am a polytheist like Jesus was, as quoted in the Bible.
A monolatrist, to be more precise.

I can't help it if Jesus claimed to be the Son of the Only True God. I didn't write the Bible. I just believe what I read there.

and I am a monotheist.

I suppose you are in a sense, but I don't know that the Jews of the world would call you a monotheist. They claim to be monotheists.
I wonder if they would call you a Tritheist. Seems to me from the explanations I get from avowed Trinitarians, that if they are really monotheists, then they are of the Modalist variety.


If that offends you, then so be it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

I don't know that the Jews of the world would call you a monotheist.

Are the Jews the standard for what is right and what is wrong?

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Are the Jews the standard for what is right and what is wrong?

I dunno--are mainstream, "traditional" Christians the standard for the correct definition of Trinitarianism ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

I dunno-

You are the one who used the Jews as the standard. Does what they say equate with truth?

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are the one who used the Jews as the standard. Does what they say equate with truth?

They just seem to have a more established, longer record of being monotheists and on possessing the Tanakh to back them up, so their opinion of what is and isn't monotheism might deserve some attention. They are no more likely to take a Trinitarian's word as more authoritative then an Evangelical is to take a Mormon's word as being more authoritative regarding what is and isn't Christian theology.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

They just seem to have a more established, longer record of being monotheists and on possessing the Tanakh to back them up, so their opinion of what is and isn't monotheism might deserve some attention.

Using this rationale you should also support their view of the Messiah.

[jdjhere]

HopefulSaint- where in Scripture in the Bible do you look to support this? Thanks

HopefulSaint said: "I am a polytheist like Jesus was, as quoted in the Bible."

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Using this rationale you should also support their view of the Messiah.

That would be a valid point, except that I prefer to take Jesus' word for it regarding both whether I should be a monolatrist, and regarding who I should believe the Messiah is.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

. . .I should be a monolatrist. . .

Monolatrism or monolatry (Greek: μόνος (monos) = single, and λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity. (Wikipedia)

Which God do you worship? The Father only?

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

HopefulSaint- where in Scripture in the Bible do you look to support this? Thanks

HopefulSaint said: "I am a polytheist like Jesus was, as quoted in the Bible."

Well, the Bible says that Jesus is deity thanks to His Virgin Birth and His allusions to being Yahweh--and it also quotes Jesus saying that His Father is the Only True God. Then there are the parts that say or at least imply that the Holy Spirit also qualifies as deity. Put those together, and you can arrive at the monolatrist position that the "Trinity" consists of the Only True God (of Christians) and two other deities who are subservient to Him, with all 3 being united in the same way that faithful Christians hope to be ultimately united.

Do you want the exact Bible verses that I am thinking of, or is that good enough?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

. . .Father is the Only True God. . .

Can any of the other gods that you believe in be true?

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can any of the other gods that you believe in be true?

You mean like God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit? Sure, they can be and are true deities, "But for us, there is one God (Jesus' Father)..." to quote Paul.

IMO, there are Bible verses that refer to the Father as "the highest." Jesus never refers to Himself with that ***le, to my knowledge, so again, I prefer to trust what He said on the issue, to the extent that He taught theology, which was not a lot, relatively speaking.

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Monolatrism or monolatry (Greek: μόνος (monos) = single, and λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity. (Wikipedia)

Which God do you worship? The Father only?

I consistently worship the Person of the Father as my Creator. It is to Him that I pray, in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

I consistently worship the Person of the Father as my Creator. It is to Him that I pray, in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ.

And to do so you ignore what the Bible says God is.. Yes it teaches that the Father is God (John 20:17). The Bible also says that Jesus is God (John 1:1). And it teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).. Does that make three Gods? NO the same being that is called God here confirmed the teaching of Moses that the Lord our GOD is one Lord (Mark 12:29).. Mormonism just disregards this and says I don't believe that because they can't understand the doctrine of the trinity. Is our understanding required before a doctrine in true? I have explained this so that it can be understood and still you deny that anyone had explained it logically.. It is time you move on into one of mormonism other heresies and leave the trinity along as a fact supported in the Bible.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

IMO, there are Bible verses that refer to the Father as "the highest."

But the verse that YOU quoted said ONLY true God, not highest.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

I consistently worship the Person of the Father as my Creator.

So you never worship the Son?

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But the verse that YOU quoted said ONLY true God, not highest.

That is quite correct. John 17:3 quotes Jesus saying that it's His Father who is the only true God. It's verses like:

Mark 5:7 "And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God?"

that say that His Father is the highest God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

That is quite correct. John 17:3 quotes Jesus saying that it's His Father who is the only true God. It's verses like:

Mark 5:7 "And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God?"

that say that His Father is the highest God.

So the Father is not the ONLY true God like you said before because according to you there are many true gods.

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So the Father is not the ONLY true God like you said before because according to you there are many true gods.

I am only quoting from the Bible. I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God. I believe the Bible BOTH where it says that Jesus is deity and the Son of deity, AND where it says that Jesus' Father--a different person than Jesus--is deity and the most high deity. If you have doubts about whether the Bible, or the people it quotes, is accurate, I really can't help that either, except to refer you to defenses of the Bible that other people have written. Sorry.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God.

But you can help your beliefs. Have you ever considered that your belief that their are multiple gods is false?

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you can help your beliefs. Have you ever considered that your belief that their are multiple gods is false?

I have considered the possibility that the Bible, or the people it quotes, (or both) is wrong on this issue, yes, but so far I continue to believe that both are correct on this issue.