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Thread: What are the requirements to be a Christian?

  1. #526
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    I have considered the possibility that the Bible, or the people it quotes, (or both) is wrong on this issue, yes, but so far I continue to believe that both are correct on this issue.
    But if it is correct then you are incorrect.

  2. #527
    HopefulSaint
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    I am only quoting from the Bible. I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God. I believe the Bible BOTH where it says that Jesus is deity and the Son of deity, AND where it says that Jesus' Father--a different person than Jesus--is deity and the most high deity. If you have doubts about whether the Bible, or the people it quotes, is accurate, I really can't help that either, except to refer you to defenses of the Bible that other people have written. Sorry.

  3. #528
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    I am only quoting from the Bible. I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God. I believe the Bible BOTH where it says that Jesus is deity and the Son of deity, AND where it says that Jesus' Father--a different person than Jesus--is deity and the most high deity. If you have doubts about whether the Bible, or the people it quotes, is accurate, I really can't help that either, except to refer you to defenses of the Bible that other people have written. Sorry.
    Dear Hopeful,
    I can certainly see how this would be confusing for you or anyone who is searching for answers. May I just remind you that while Jesus Christ was walking the earth, he took on a mortal body and by doing that, he gave up his glory, which meant he took on flesh but it did not make him give up his divinity. Christ was full of grace and truth but because of his love for mankind, he put aside his glory...he still had it, he just layed it aside for the time he was walking among men. Hoped this helped.

  4. #529
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    I am only quoting from the Bible. I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God. I believe the Bible BOTH where it says that Jesus is deity and the Son of deity, AND where it says that Jesus' Father--a different person than Jesus--is deity and the most high deity. If you have doubts about whether the Bible, or the people it quotes, is accurate, I really can't help that either, except to refer you to defenses of the Bible that other people have written. Sorry.
    I am not arguing that the Father is not the only true God.. What I am trying to get you to see is that the Bible also says Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.. Each of these Persons can rightly be called the only true God.. But unlike you who seem to want to limit Godhood to the Father alone and deny the scriptures that says Jesus is God, and other p***ages that teach that the Holy Spirit is God, and Joseph Smith that said that the Bible was wrong in the verse you quote and that there are three Gods. I believe that Bible is the truth and that there is one true God who is the Persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..

    And you say I deny the scripture.. I don't deny the p***age you quoted. Neither do I deny the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the Apostle John that taught that:
    John 1:1, 14
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    And the Holy Spirit through the disciple of Jesus, Luke, taught that:
    Acts 5:3-4
    But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

    Surely you aren't calling Jesus and the Holy Spirit false Gods? But still there are the p***ages that say that there is one God:
    Deut 6:4
    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
    And Jesus confirmed that teaching given by God through the Apostle Peter thru Mark:
    Mark 12:29
    And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

    Yes there is one God, and three Persons all called God in Scripture.. In short the doctrine of the Trinity right there in plain sight.. And yet you allow one scripture that does teach true doctrine, but has been misused by you in a very false interpretation to try to prove your preconceived concept of some personal private interpretation of scripture. Either see the scripture as a whole all of it true or reject it as totally false there is no half way.. IHS jim

  5. #530
    HopefulSaint
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Dear Hopeful,
    I can certainly see how this would be confusing for you or anyone who is searching for answers. May I just remind you that while Jesus Christ was walking the earth, he took on a mortal body and by doing that, he gave up his glory, which meant he took on flesh but it did not make him give up his divinity. Christ was full of grace and truth but because of his love for mankind, he put aside his glory...he still had it, he just layed it aside for the time he was walking among men. Hoped this helped.
    Thanks, that was well said and I think I agree with all of it. The Bible supports it all as far as I could tell. And, it doesn't refute my Bible-based beliefs in the Father as deity, and in Jesus as the only-begotten Son of that deity.

    So again, thanks.

  6. #531
    HopefulSaint
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I am not arguing that the Father is not the only true God.
    that is good.

    What I am trying to get you to see is that the Bible also says Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God..
    yes indeed. you are batting 1000 so far, imo.

    Each of these Persons can rightly be called the only true God..
    I don't know about that statement. I don't recall seeing any Bible verse that says that each of the three persons is, singly, the only true God. The only New Testament verses I am aware of, declare that only the Person of the Father has the ***le of the only true God.

    But if you know of a verse that I am unaware of, that supports the "biblicalness" of your ***ertion, then now is your chance to quote it.

    But unlike you who seem to want to limit Godhood to the Father alone and deny the scriptures that says Jesus is God
    false

    I believe that Bible is the truth and that there is one true God who is the Persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..
    You can believe that, but as far as I know, there are verses teaching that each of the Persons is deity, and there are verses teaching that all 3 of them, together, are "one God" (metaphorically speaking).

    But I am unaware of any verse that denies the Person of the Father the distinction of being the Only True God. Again, if you have such a verse in mind, I would be happy to look at it as soon as you quote it.

    And you say I deny the scripture.
    If I have said that you deny a scripture that you obviously don't deny, then I apologize.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Yep, true. It just doesn't say that Jesus (who is "The Logos" being referred to here) is the Only True God. In fact, it's Jesus Himself who ***erts that it's His Father--another of the 3 Persons--who is the Only True God. That is clear, obvious, and unmistakable, IMO.

    Surely you aren't calling Jesus and the Holy Spirit false Gods?
    You are exactly right--surely I am not doing that, as anyone who has read my posts should realize.

    Yes there is one God, and three Persons all called God in Scripture..
    Yes, and there are many people in Christendom, yet the Bible says that many people spoke with one voice. I don't think that should be taken literally.
    Apparently, it's possible to say that many individuals are one, without meaning that they are literally one being.

    And yet you allow one scripture that does teach true doctrine, but has been misused by you in a very false interpretation to try to prove your preconceived concept of some personal private interpretation of scripture.
    If the Bible teaches that each of the 3 Persons is deity, but it states that only one of those 3 is the Only True Deity, I prefer to believe both of those teachings.

    Either see the scripture as a whole all of it true or reject it as totally false there is no half way..
    I think that is what I am doing: Seeing both teachings as a whole. I certainly don't want to reject both teachings--the teaching that each of the Persons is deity, and the teaching that one of them is the "Most High God" and the "Only True God."

  7. #532
    HopefulSaint
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    Here is one more thing you might want to consider:

    If you are right about each of the 3 Persons being the Only True God or the Most High God, then what happens if the Bible teaches that Jesus is the SON of the Most High God?

    Your belief leads to the strange conclusion that Jesus is the Son of Himself...if Jesus really is the Most High or Only True God.

    And even if you believe that the Trinity, as a conglomerate of 3, cons***utes the Most High God, then the teaching that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God leads again to a strange conclusion: That Jesus is the Son of the Trinity--a Trinity that includes Jesus Himself, of course.

    Both of those conclusions (that Jesus is the Son of Himself, and that Jesus is the Son of all 3 Persons) cause huge problems for your belief that each Person in the Trinity is the Most High or Only True God.

    In fact, I think it creates an insurmountable problem for your belief.

  8. #533
    James Banta
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    [HopefulSaint;92406]Here is one more thing you might want to consider:

    If you are right about each of the 3 Persons being the Only True God or the Most High God, then what happens if the Bible teaches that Jesus is the SON of the Most High God?
    I am ready to believe what the Bible teaches on the subject are you?
    Matthew 1:15-18
    Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
    Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
    But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    It would seem that the Holy Spirit was the person of God that created within Mary the flesh of the Lord Jesus.. Since the Holy Spirit is 100% God that would make Jesus the Son of the most high God..

    Your belief leads to the strange conclusion that Jesus is the Son of Himself...if Jesus really is the Most High or Only True God.
    Again you deny what we have been teaching about the nature of God.. He is not some three headed concoction made up in the Minds of some man.. It is Biblical that there is One God and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is that one God.. Three separate and distinct Persons that are the one God.. The flesh of Jesus is the creation of the Holy Spirit Directly in the womb of Mary!

    And even if you believe that the Trinity, as a conglomerate of 3, cons***utes the Most High God, then the teaching that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God leads again to a strange conclusion: That Jesus is the Son of the Trinity--a Trinity that includes Jesus Himself, of course.
    Yes, I agree.. Jesus is always God and was always with God. So was there as a Spiritual Being at creation of His flesh, YES. Still it was the Person of the Holy Spirit that formulated that work.. Just at it is His duty to convict of sin (John 16:8), and bring a sinner to the cross to be saved (John 15:26)..

    Both of those conclusions (that Jesus is the Son of Himself, and that Jesus is the Son of all 3 Persons) cause huge problems for your belief that each Person in the Trinity is the Most High or Only True God.
    In fact, I think it creates an insurmountable problem for your belief.
    Because of the facts shown within the Bible your invention here is NOT an insurmountable problem in Christian doctrine.. It is totally explained in the Bible as it teaches that Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. A separate Person from the Son, just the same God.. IHS jim

  9. #534
    HopefulSaint
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    A pretty good try at defending your position, James, I admit.

    Except IMO it might be presumptuous to conclude, from that proof text, that Jesus is the Son of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus (The Person of the Son) is the Son of the Person of the Holy Spirit instead of the Person of the Father, it throws a huge monkey wrench into all those times Jesus was talking about the Person of the Father or praying to the Person of the Father. Your reasoning leads to either:

    1. the Person of the Father is also the Person of the Holy Spirit, which is basically Modalism;

    2. Jesus was mistaken when He said that it's the Person of the Father who was Jesus' Father, and Jesus was referring to the Holy Ghost when He told Mary "I go to your Father and My Father, your God and My God."

    3. Or the Bible is just misquoting Jesus when it claims He made the statements in Option 2.


    Let's look at your proof text in a variety of Bibles:

    Matthew 1:15-18 says, in the CEB version that "she became pregnant by the Holy Spirit."

    CEV: "she learned that she was going to have a baby by God's Holy Spirit."

    ESV: "she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit."

    God's Word Translation: "Mary realized that she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit."

    HCSB: "it was discovered before they came together that she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit."

    NCV: "she learned she was pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit."

    NIRV: "it became clear that she was going to have a baby. She became pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit."

    NIV: "she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

    NLT: "she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit."

    TNIV: "she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit."

    YLT: "she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit,"

    The Bibles that say that Mary became pregnant through the POWER of the Holy Spirit leave open the possibility that the Holy Spirit is not Jesus' Father, but instead is just the source of the POWER through which Jesus' real Father (the Person of the Father) caused Mary to be pregnant.

    Some of the other Bibles (like NCV) appear to be saying that it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that Mary LEARNED she was pregnant--the Holy Spirit was not Jesus' Father, but rather the means by which Mary knew she was pregnant with God's own Son.

    Just something to think about.

  10. #535
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God.
    But from your perspective this is false because the Father can't possibly be the ONLY true God unless you are willing to admit that the Son and the HG are not true Gods.

  11. #536
    HopefulSaint
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But from your perspective this is false because the Father can't possibly be the ONLY true God unless you are willing to admit that the Son and the HG are not true Gods.
    If you are trying to say that one part of the Bible contradicts another part in this case, I do not agree with you. I believe both parts to be true, as I said:

    Jesus' claim that His Father is the only true God is accurate as far as Christians are concerned; and Jesus, as the only begotten and firstborn and most beloved Son of God, is a deity, too, and as such is definitely not a false god.

    If you have a problem reconciling those 2 Biblical teachings, my suggestion would be to study LDS theology and see how LDS doctrine manages to reconcile them.

  12. #537
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    If you are trying to say that one part of the Bible contradicts another part in this case, I do not agree with you.
    I am not saying that it contradicts at all. I am saying using YOUR theology there is a conflict because you believe in multiple gods.

  13. #538
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    If you have a problem reconciling those 2 Biblical teachings, my suggestion would be to study LDS theology and see how LDS doctrine manages to reconcile them.
    I was born and raised in the LDS church so I know that they can't be reconciled and that is why I am asking you about it.

  14. #539
    HopefulSaint
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am not saying that it contradicts at all. I am saying using YOUR theology there is a conflict because you believe in multiple gods.
    But LDS doctrine reconciles the two Bible teachings: The teaching that each of the three separate (to use James Banta's term) Persons is deity, and the teaching that the Person of the Father is the Only True God as far as Christians are concerned.

    That's what makes LDS theology so appealing--it makes sense of potentially difficult or cryptic Bible p***ages.

  15. #540
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    But LDS doctrine reconciles the two Bible teachings:
    Not really. If the Father is the ONLY true God. Then you have to believe the the Son and the HG are false gods by definition.

  16. #541
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    But LDS doctrine reconciles the two Bible teachings: The teaching that each of the three separate (to use James Banta's term) Persons is deity, and the teaching that the Person of the Father is the Only True God as far as Christians are concerned.

    That's what makes LDS theology so appealing--it makes sense of potentially difficult or cryptic Bible p***ages.

    Dear Hopeful,
    Thank you for mentioning my husband in this post and of course I agree with what he's told you. One of the problems Hopeful is that our finite minds can never comprehend the true nature of the Godhead. There are not 3 gods as Mormonism would have people believe. The Trinity is not an easy concept but one that must be accepted.

    The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. But, by the late second century it was being used by the church to describe a biblical concept—literally, tri-unity, or “three in one.”

    This does not mean three Gods … though Christians have been accused of being polytheists by other world religions. Instead Christians have a unique view of God, one that comes about because they believe both the Old and New Testaments.

    There are six basic biblical steps to understanding the Trinity:

    1. There is one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

    Deuteronomy 6:4 is one of the most important verses to the Jews, who believe in one God. It is known as the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”

    Here is the Hebrew: Shema Yisrael: Yahweh Elochenu Yahweh Echad. The Hebrew language has two words that are translated “one”—Yachid and Echad. Yachid means an absolute one. Echad refers to a united one. Echad is the word used of God in the Old Testament—God is a united one.

    2. The Father is God. (2 Peter 1:17)

    3. The Son is God. (John 8:58)

    4. The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-4)

    5. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct individuals. (John 14:26)

    6. Therefore, there are three Persons in the one Godhead

    Since the Trinity is completely unique, no ****ogy really fits. The Trinity is not really “like” anything.

    But attempts have been made. The best ****ogies do not look at the Trinity as three parts that make up a whole, like these examples:

    • Shamrock: Saint Patrick, who spread the Gospel in Ireland, used a three-leafed clover.

    • Egg: Another common one—eggshell, egg white and yolk.

    • H2O: The three phases of H2O—water, ice, steam—are better as an ****ogy but also fall short since any given temperature produces only one of these at a time. That picture leads to a false doctrine that says the Trinity is really only one person who takes on one of three modes at any given time. This belief is problematic for those who hold it: Just what was going on in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus was praying to the Father? Was He talking to himself?

    The best illustration I have seen comes from C.S. Lewis:

    • The three dimensions of space: Length, width and height. All coincide in the same place, yet are distinct.


    My James has used this ****ogy many times to try and explain the Trinity and when one truly takes the time to think about it, it makes perfect sense. I so hope this has helped you.

  17. #542
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Dear Hopeful,
    Thank you for mentioning my husband in this post and of course I agree with what he's told you. One of the problems Hopeful is that our finite minds can never comprehend the true nature of the Godhead. There are not 3 gods as Mormonism would have people believe. The Trinity is not an easy concept but one that must be accepted.

    The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. But, by the late second century it was being used by the church to describe a biblical concept—literally, tri-unity, or “three in one.”

    This does not mean three Gods … though Christians have been accused of being polytheists by other world religions. Instead Christians have a unique view of God, one that comes about because they believe both the Old and New Testaments.

    There are six basic biblical steps to understanding the Trinity:

    1. There is one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

    Deuteronomy 6:4 is one of the most important verses to the Jews, who believe in one God. It is known as the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”

    Here is the Hebrew: Shema Yisrael: Yahweh Elochenu Yahweh Echad. The Hebrew language has two words that are translated “one”—Yachid and Echad. Yachid means an absolute one. Echad refers to a united one. Echad is the word used of God in the Old Testament—God is a united one.

    2. The Father is God. (2 Peter 1:17)

    3. The Son is God. (John 8:58)

    4. The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-4)

    5. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct individuals. (John 14:26)

    6. Therefore, there are three Persons in the one Godhead

    Since the Trinity is completely unique, no ****ogy really fits. The Trinity is not really “like” anything.

    But attempts have been made. The best ****ogies do not look at the Trinity as three parts that make up a whole, like these examples:

    • Shamrock: Saint Patrick, who spread the Gospel in Ireland, used a three-leafed clover.

    • Egg: Another common one—eggshell, egg white and yolk.

    • H2O: The three phases of H2O—water, ice, steam—are better as an ****ogy but also fall short since any given temperature produces only one of these at a time. That picture leads to a false doctrine that says the Trinity is really only one person who takes on one of three modes at any given time. This belief is problematic for those who hold it: Just what was going on in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus was praying to the Father? Was He talking to himself?

    The best illustration I have seen comes from C.S. Lewis:

    • The three dimensions of space: Length, width and height. All coincide in the same place, yet are distinct.


    My James has used this ****ogy many times to try and explain the Trinity and when one truly takes the time to think about it, it makes perfect sense. I so hope this has helped you.
    Amen. We must believe by faith. Without faith we cannot please God.

  18. #543
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    But LDS doctrine reconciles the two Bible teachings: The teaching that each of the three separate (to use James Banta's term) Persons is deity, and the teaching that the Person of the Father is the Only True God as far as Christians are concerned.

    That's what makes LDS theology so appealing--it makes sense of potentially difficult or cryptic Bible p***ages.
    Hey, I am being remembered by you This p***age must be as you make it out to be if you see different levels of gods that have been created.. But if the Bible is true and there is One God how can any person included as God be less than the other? Can God be less than God? Can God be greater than God? When Jesus put on flesh and laid His glory down so that He could complete the great work of God in purchasing the souls of men from death and sin the Father was greater because he held the glory of God within Himself. But was Jesus ever not God? NO! Jesus gave the Father all the glory and ***le of being what He is, GOD! Yet Jesus also claimed to be the I AM, the YHWH, the God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush.. The One True and Living God.. Peter said that the Holy Spirit was God.. and Still Jesus agreed with Moses in the law as he said that the LORD (YHWH) our GOD (Elohim) is one LORD.. LDS theology makes the whole of the Bible a lie, as it denies the statement from God through Moses and the words of Jesus spoken in agreement with that teaching. The problem is you see this major doctrine in the vacuum of John 17:3 while denying the p***age I have listed so many times before and then this one I haven't brought to your attention before..
    1John 5:20
    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    Here the Holy Spirit through the Apostle tells us that The Father and the Son are the true God.. This is the same way that all three persons called God in Scripture are the ONE TRUE GOD.. Smith and his invented church have it wrong.. God has said it.. There is one God. He has always existed as God and will always continue to exist as the ONLY REAL GOD.. Sorry to burst your bubble about obtaining divinity but the *** had already been filled.. IHS jim

  19. #544
    HopefulSaint
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Can God be greater than God?
    Jesus apparently thought so

    When Jesus put on flesh and laid His glory down so that He could complete the great work of God in purchasing the souls of men from death and sin the Father was greater because he held the glory of God within Himself. But was Jesus ever not God? NO! Jesus gave the Father all the glory and ***le of being what He is, GOD! Yet Jesus also claimed to be the I AM, the YHWH, the God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush..

    So you're saying that the Only True God is able to change from a state of having glory, to a state of not having any glory? That is the only conclusion possible if Jesus--one of the 3 Persons of the Trinity--is the only True God of Christianity.

  20. #545
    James Banta
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    [HopefulSaint;92494]Jesus apparently thought so
    Then it must be is some way other than power, authority, Love, mercy, justice and a thousand on thousands of His other attributes, Maybe the way that He was less than the Father is that Jesus laid down His glory as He entered mortality.. Other than that the devils recognized Him, and nature herself obeyed His commands..

    So you're saying that the Only True God is able to change from a state of having glory, to a state of not having any glory? That is the only conclusion possible if Jesus--one of the 3 Persons of the Trinity--is the only True God of Christianity.
    Even man changes states from a physical mortal being to a Spiritual immortal being.. Why do you limit the power if God to lay down His glory? Didn't Jesus say "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What Happened to that Glory if He didn't lay it down when He entered the world?

    Since there is only One God and all three Persons of the Godhead are individually called God the only why that such can be explained is the doctrine of the Trinity.. I have asked several time here for anyone to propose a different doctrine that supports both biblical teachings that the Lord (YHWH, or Jehovah) Our God (Elohim) is one Lord, and that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. So come show us all what the true doctrine is..

    It can't be what Smith said that there are three Gods.. That doesn't fit the first teaching that the Lord is One.. It can't be that only the Father is God That doesn't fit into the fact that three Persons are all called God in the Scripture. So go ahead tell us the real truth, How is it that God is one and there are three beings that are all rightly called God.. Explain the real truth if what I teach is in error.. IHS jim

  21. #546
    HopefulSaint
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    How is it that God is one and there are three beings that are all rightly called God.. Explain the real truth if what I teach is in error.. IHS jim
    Fairly simple: Where the NT verses say that Jesus and His Father are one, it meant it metaphorically, not literally. Where the OT scriptures say that the God of ancient Israel is one, it meant that was only one God of ancient Israel.

  22. #547
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulSaint View Post
    Fairly simple: Where the NT verses say that Jesus and His Father are one, it meant it metaphorically, not literally. Where the OT scriptures say that the God of ancient Israel is one, it meant that was only one God of ancient Israel.
    Moses taught that YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH (Deut 6:4), Jesus agreed with that teaching (Mark 12:29).. Isaiah recorded God in revelation that Before Him there was no God Formed, Neither will there be one formed after Him. He told the prophet that he doesn't even know that any other Gods exist. That other than Him there is no savior.. (Isaiah 43:10,11, 44:8) That is clear that one God and only one God is taught in the OT because God doesn't justsay that He is the God of Israel but the only God that exists period..

    Jesus said that when you have seen Him you have seen the Father He and the Father are one.. That is meant as Jesus said it.. He and the Father are one God.. Not two gods.. You can out a nonliteral meaning on His words but there was no parable in His words as he taught that truth (John 14:8-9).. If you want to say that everytime the Bible teaches something you don't like that it's only metaphoric then you can make up your own truth. I instead chose to believe God.. IHS jim

  23. #548
    HopefulSaint
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    I instead chose to believe God.. IHS jim
    Yes, I, too, choose to believe Jesus when He prayed that His disciples would be one as Jesus and the Father are one. If that was intended to mean one being, then Jesus was praying that His disciples would literally become one being. Which seems very, very unlikely.

    So, instead, I choose to believe Jesus.

  24. #549
    alanmolstad
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    We are Christians because we believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

    The belief has caused us to place our trust in chris that just as he came to life from the dead, so too one day God will raise us.

    We are saved by grace though faith, not by works.

    faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes to us via the Word of God.

  25. #550
    James Banta
    Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    We are Christians because we believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

    The belief has caused us to place our trust in chris that just as he came to life from the dead, so too one day God will raise us.

    We are saved by grace though faith, not by works.

    faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes to us via the Word of God.
    The problem is the mormons will say, "We believe all that too so you have to agree that we are Christians". Still I exclude them, ALL Christian churches exclude them, Why? Because they have perverted the nature of God casting away the revelation of the true and living God and put the myths, the creations of Men in His place.. They don't have 1 God they have 3 (Joseph Smith, Sermon on Plurality of Gods, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. They have deserted the invisible God (Col 1:15) for a God of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22).

    Their problem isn't what they teach that Jesus did their problem is who Jesus is.. He is either the YHWH he said He is of he is a liar and a fraud.. That meaning that the Jesus of Mormonism is a fraud. This is seen in Him either becoming a god, or that only the Father is God.. Either way the mormon jesus is a fraud and that is why they are not Christian.. IHS jim

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