What are the requirements to be a Christian?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

?

Do you define a Christian as someone who has done the above 6 steps?

Billyray, you keep wanting to take me down a path in which you define a Christian. Once again, I define a Christian as someone who follows the Spirit.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;89212]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You are making a claim here so you show me the birthright claim you are trying to make.. IHS jim

This is an evangelical site (not LDS) explaining the birthright. I hope it helps you to understand this stuff in a light that you can see and not be defensive about it.

http://www.bibletruthonline.com/birt...MtoEPHRAIM.htm

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that God the Father is a God?
Do you believe that God the Son is a God?
Do you believe that God the Holy Spirit is a God?
Do you believe that God the Father had a God?

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost make up the Godhead. They act as one, but they are individual and distinct beings. This can be seen throughout the scriptures in Elohim (meaning gods plurall literally) making man in "our image." This can be seen in the numerous claims of Jesus Christ and God the Father acknowledging that He is "well pleased" with the Son. This can be seen when Stephen dies and sees Christ standing on the righthand of God. This can be seen when we pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, and receive answers via the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost make up the Godhead. They act as one, but they are individual and distinct beings.

So you are a polytheist? Agree?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Once again, I define a Christian as someone who follows the Spirit.

If a person comes to you and says that they follow a spirit then they are Christian even if they are not baptized or have faith in Christ?

In the parable of the good Samaritan you still believe that the good Samaritan was a Christian?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

[Per BigJ's post about regeneration/born again]
1. Taught the gospel
2. Keep the commandments
3. Repentance to a priesthood authority
4. Baptism
5. Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost
6. Keep the commandments
7. This STARTS the regeneration process.
. . .

BigJ can a person be a Christian without completing any of the above 6 steps as long as that person feels that he is following the spirit?

When is a person fully born again or regenerated?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If a person comes to you and says that they follow a spirit then they are Christian even if they are not baptized or have faith in Christ?

In the parable of the good Samaritan you still believe that the good Samaritan was a Christian?

Regarding the Good Samaritan, Christ said regarding Samaria--Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

So, the Good Samaritan could not have heard of Jesus Christ gospel from those appointed during Christ's reign on the earth and when Christ spoke of him to the Pharisees. So, how is it then, that the Samaritan could do the good that he did? I say, that even though he had not yet been taught formally of Jesus Christ, he still followed the Spirit. In that way, yes, he was a Christian because he followed the teachings of Jesus Christ even though he had yet to have any formal education regarding him.

Now, here is another example:

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. ...
And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

These are two men who had not heard the gospel yet, but were following the teachings of Jesus Christ even before they were formally taught. So, yes, Cornelius prior to receiving Peter and hearing the gospel, was a Christian.

As I said, my definition of a "Christian" is someone who follows the Spirit.

Now, the question would be, once Cornelius was taught, would he then be baptized as was taught by those preaching of Christ and receive the Holy Ghost? I say that he would be---but this "following the Spirit" started long before Cornelius was formally taught of Jesus Christ.

This is why in Jude the Jews were taught to bring to "remembrance" what they knew regarding Moses because that would bring them to Jesus Christ as well. Hence, those who follow Christ are those who follow the Spirit regardless of when they were on the earth or where they were on the earth. God loves all of His children and in His own due time all will have a formal education of Jesus Christ, but ALL can and should follow the Spirit as it is given to them AND all who do belong to the church of Christ. All who do not belong to the church of the devil.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

. . .These are two men who had not heard the gospel yet, but were following the teachings of Jesus Christ even before they were formally taught. So, yes, Cornelius prior to receiving Peter and hearing the gospel, was a Christian.

As I said, my definition of a "Christian" is someone who follows the Spirit. . .

You say that faith in Christ is not a requirement to be a Christian. To this I disagree.

You also gave me a long list of things required for regeneration that also are not required for being a Christian. Your position doesn't seem very clear to me.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You say that faith in Christ is not a requirement to be a Christian. To this I disagree.

You also gave me a long list of things required for regeneration that also are not required for being a Christian. Your position doesn't seem very clear to me.

I say we first have to comprehend what faith in Christ is. From the Bible we learn: Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, to me, any truth that we hope for and live by is faith in Jesus Christ--who is the source of ALL truth. So, the Samaritan who has never heard of Jesus Christ but lives by a truth (via the spirit)--the evidence he has not seen--is living by faith in Jesus Christ. The centerion who feared God and fasted though he had yet to have a formal education of Christ was living by faith.

So, our basic disagreement is what it means to have faith in Jesus Christ. I say that it means following the Spirit. You think that one has to be regenerated or born again which means that they know of Jesus Christ and are "regenerated" by Him. I say that the Samaritan and the Centerion could not do the good they did without influence of the Spirit which could not be if it were not for Jesus Christ.

The list I gave you regarding being born again is only one step in the process of one being taught by and following the Spirit. Keep in mind, that anyone, anywhere along this process can choose to stop following the Spirit. One example would be Judas Iscariot. At one point in the ministry of Christ, I would have thought him a Christian as he was following Christ---but obviously, he let his pride get to him and chose a different path. Likewise, a person who has learned to follow the Spirit can continue down that path or at anytime choose to leave it and turn away. These would be comparable to those who were holding onto the Iron Rod and chose to lose their grip because of the mocking of those in the great and spacious building or for other reasons.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, our basic disagreement is what it means to have faith in Jesus Christ. I say that it means following the Spirit. You think that one has to be regenerated or born again which means that they know of Jesus Christ and are "regenerated" by Him.

Good we are making progress.

I believe that a Christian is someone who

1. Has faith in Christ
2. Born again/regenerated


You believe that a Christian

1. Does not have to have faith in Christ
2. Does not have to be born again


Agree so far?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Good we are making progress.

I believe that a Christian is someone who

1. Has faith in Christ
2. Born again/regenerated


You believe that a Christian

1. Does not have to have faith in Christ
2. Does not have to be born again


Agree so far?

You are putting words in my mouth--I said that we disagree with what it means to have faith in Christ. I submit that both the Samaritan and the Centerion had faith in Christ based on their following the Spirit even though they had yet to have a formal education about Christ--just as the Jews of the OT did not yet know of Christ formally, they certainly understood Him by Spirit.

So, no, I do not agree with what you have concluded so far. What I do see is that you want to understand my beliefs from within your own paradigm. I ask you to step out and see if you can understand mine rather than try and force my beliefs into your understanding of Christianity.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I submit that both the Samaritan and the Centerion had faith in Christ

So someone who does good works like the Samaritan is a Christian because of his good works even though he does not place his faith in Christ. Agree?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So someone who does good works like the Samaritan is a Christian because of his good works even though he does not place his faith in Christ. Agree?

No, I am saying that the Good Samaritan did the good that he did because he has faith in Christ even though he does not fully understand it. Just as the Centerion feared God and followed the teachings of Christ even though he did not fully understand it.

Let's put it this way. Let's say that I have never heard of Alexander Graham Bell, but every day, I pick up the telephone and use it. I have faith that when I pick up the phone and press some numbers, it is going to work. I talk to my friends, hang up the phone and have faith that the next time I pick it up, it is going to work again. Then one day, I go to school and I learn of Bell and how he invented the telephone and I am explained why and how a phone works. Now, I have a formal education of Bell, but I had faith in his invention long before I knew of him or why a phone worked the way it did.

Likewise, we are all born with this built in telephone or the Spirit. It is because we are the "offspring" of God, discussed in earlier and now deleted threads. Some use this Spirit and learn to have faith in it--others do not. Then one day, someone approaches us and teaches us regarding Christ and why the Spirit works the way it does. In other words, because we are born in the image and lkeness of God and because we are His offspring and because ALL goodness and ALL truth comes from God, we can show faith in Him long before we are taught of Him. In fact, most of us do.

Billyray, can I just thank you for these many opportunities you give for me to share the gospel of jesus Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I am saying that the Good Samaritan did the good that he did because he has faith in Christ even though he does not fully understand it.

Do you have any scripture that states that the Good Samaritan had faith in Christ or is this something that you just made up?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray, can I just thank you for these many opportunities you give for me to share the gospel of jesus Christ.

BigJ the pleasure is all mine because it shows others that LDS are not true Christians. You have all but admitted that you do not have to be born again or have faith in Christ to be a Christian. This is a false gospel BigJ. Maybe someday you will realize your error.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ the pleasure is all mine because it shows others that LDS are not true Christians. You have all but admitted that you do not have to be born again or have faith in Christ to be a Christian. This is a false gospel BigJ. Maybe someday you will realize your error.

And maybe someday, you will realize that God loves all of His children--that all of humanity was created in the image and likeness of God and that all who follow Him, regardless of their stage or place is part of His fold.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you have any scripture that states that the Good Samaritan had faith in Christ or is this something that you just made up?

It is something Christ taught in a parable. One more time:

Matthew 21: 28-31 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.


How about maybe you explain how you understand this parable and we can start from there about our differences in how we understand this.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sword you have your facts wrong. We both believe that we are justified AFTER conversion which is faith and repentance. However I do agree with you in that regeneration is being spiritually born and conversion is repentance and faith. We just differ on the order that regeneration and conversion take place.

source monergism.com

No Billy You are mistaken. I gave plenty of Scriptures and not a website. Calvinism teaches that regeneration precedes being born again.

Regeneration IS the same as being born again. So its incorrect to say regeneration happens before spiritual rebirth.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sword you have your facts wrong. We both believe that we are justified AFTER conversion which is faith and repentance. However I do agree with you in that regeneration is being spiritually born and conversion is repentance and faith. We just differ on the order that regeneration and conversion take place.

source monergism.com

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is
1) outward call
2) faith/election
3) repentance
4) regeneration
5) justification
6) perseverance
7) glorification



This is NOT about Calvinism verses Armiminian. I am talking about what God's word says. You are on here preaching Calvinism and yet the majority of Christians do not adhere to some of his teachings such as this one on regeneration proceeding spiritual rebirth and predestination.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

This is NOT about Calvinism verses Armiminian. . .

I never brought up the subject of Calvinism. You and your buddy Erik did. And then you two have been trying to tag team me over the last several threads spreading division among the body of Christ. I have been generous with you two and simply said that we have had a difference in opinion. You on the other hand have made this personal.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8).

Absolutely agree

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation.

Absolutely agree

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Sinners are converted when they repent of their sins and turn to faith in Jesus Christ, trusting in him for the forgiveness of their sins.

Absolutely agree

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Calvinists believe that a man is regenerated or has eternal life before he repents or believes. This is not Biblical.

Here is YOUR error. Justification occurs AFTER conversion.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I never brought up the subject of Calvinism. You and your buddy Erik did. And then you two have been trying to tag team me over the last several threads spreading division among the body of Christ. I have been generous with you two and simply said that we have had a difference in opinion. You on the other hand have made this personal.

Billy Your reformed theology is largely the teaching of John Calvin.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Absolutely agree


Absolutely agree


Absolutely agree


Here is YOUR error. Justification occurs AFTER conversion.

No you don't agree. You stated in another post that you were regenerated BEFORE your conversion. That is not scriptural.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

You are on here preaching Calvinism and yet the majority of Christians do not adhere to some of his teachings. . .

Sword you are now engaging in a logical fallacy called a ad populum.

"logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."
Wikipedia

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

No you don't agree.

Now you have the nerve to tell me what I believe. You are a piece of work.