What are the requirements to be a Christian?

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Absolutely agree


Absolutely agree


Absolutely agree


Here is YOUR error. Justification occurs AFTER conversion.

Reformed theology teaches that regeneration precedes faith. They say that a person must be born again before he believes. That a person must have God’s LIFE before he can believe on Christ.

C. D. Cole states it this way: "The Calvinist says that life must precede faith, and is logically the cause of faith. Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith." [From a tract en***led Which Comes First In Conversion--Life or Faith? By C.D.Cole, published by Chapel Library, Venice, Florida].

Calvinists put the new birth before faith, since they believe that spiritually dead humans cannot exercise faith and, therefore, need to be born again before they can believe" [C. Gordon Olson, Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, p. 39].

The doctrine of man’s total depravity has been carried to the extreme by some Calvinists resulting in a wrong understanding of man’s inability. They believe that the sinner is dead in sin and therefore he is like a corpse, totally unable to do anything. They believe he first must be regenerated and have life and only then will he be able to believe the gospel.

But the Scripture teaches that he must believe in order to have life (John 20:31).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8).

I agree with your statement. Why do you say that I don't when I have clearly stated that I do?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Reformed theology teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

That is absolutely true. I have already listed this in a prior post.

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sword you are now engaging in a logical fallacy called a ad populum.

"logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."
Wikipedia

Your views are that of the Reformed. You are teaching something that is contrary to what the Scriptures teaches Billy. Please give us the verses to support your view.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is absolutely true. I have already listed this in a prior post.

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

Then you believe in Calvinism since the Reformed faith is largely based on this man's teaching.

[BigJulie]

And another perfectly good thread on its way to deletion.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Your views are that of the Reformed. You are teaching something that is contrary to what the Scriptures teaches Billy. .

What is contrary?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Then you believe in Calvinism since the Reformed faith is largely based on this man's teaching.

What do you take issue with Sword?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And another perfectly good thread on its way to deletion.

Unfortunately BigJ I agree with you. I feel that I have been generous with other Christian's point of view and have clearly stated that we differ on certain aspects and that I understand and respect their point of view. Erik and Sword have taken it upon themselves to prove me wrong with a vengeance. They have made it personal and it is quite obvious.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

You are teaching something that is contrary to what the Scriptures teaches Billy.

Sword are you the one that causes yourself to be born again OR is this a work of God?

[Snow Patrol]

Ah, great. I'm a Christian.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Ah, great. I'm a Christian.

My post above I was specifically referring to fellow Christians not LDS. I guess my post was unclear in that respect.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Unfortunately BigJ I agree with you. I feel that I have been generous with other Christian's point of view and have clearly stated that we differ on certain aspects and that I understand and respect their point of view. Erik and Sword have taken it upon themselves to prove me wrong with a vengeance. They have made it personal and it is quite obvious.

Billy, cool down. It is not vengeance nor personal. Sometimes we Christians can be mistaken and in our pride we close our minds. You had posted (unfortunately I could not find this post. perhaps it was in a thread that has been deleted) but you wrote that YOU were regenerated BEFORE you got saved. You also posted a list of requirements where it showed that one must be regenerated before one can proceed on to the next step which is conversion (faith and repentance). Therefore, you believe conversion and regeneration are two separate things. They are not.

I asked you for the scripture verses where you believe it teaches regeneration precedes faith. You didn't give any. I believe you are a Christian Billy, but you have some beliefs that conflict with the Scriptures.

The Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). If Paul had been a Calvinist he might have said, "You can do nothing to be saved, absolutely nothing. You are dead in sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God doesn't regenerate you, then you are doomed." But Paul said nothing at all like this. His answer was very different: He said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

You had posted (unfortunately I could not find this post. perhaps it was in a thread that has been deleted) but you wrote that YOU were regenerated BEFORE you got saved.

I have always maintained that my regeneration (spiritual birth) preceded my conversion (faith and repentance). If this were not the case I would still be Mormon. I never would of changed my mind and come to the real Jesus because I felt that I already had the real Jesus even though I was inactive at the time. The only reason that I left is because God changed me which then lead me to conversion (faith and repentance) in the true God. I never once sought out the true God UNTIL I was changed first.

[Snow Patrol]

Oh, so you are adding additional requirements then?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

I asked you for the scripture verses where you believe it teaches regeneration precedes faith.

You brought up John 3 so lets look at what it actually states.

John 3 NIV
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Notice Jesus states that in order to even see the kingdom of God--let alone enter it-- you must be born again or spiritually regenerated. Looking at verse 8 it does not say being born again is a result of faith and repentance which then leads to being born again but rather it is like the wind and you can't tell where it comes from or where it is going. If it was specifically after faith and repentance then you could know exactly where it was going.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

I asked you for the scripture verses where you believe it teaches regeneration precedes faith.

Lets look at another one.

John 1

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It specifically states that we are born "nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man".

[Billyray]

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

The time between regeneration and conversion may be milliseconds such that a person may not distinguish between the two.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have always maintained that my regeneration (spiritual birth) preceded my conversion (faith and repentance). If this were not the case I would still be Mormon. I never would of changed my mind and come to the real Jesus because I felt that I already had the real Jesus even though I was inactive at the time. The only reason that I left is because God changed me which then lead me to conversion (faith and repentance) in the true God. I never once sought out the true God UNTIL I was changed first.

Then how can you say regeneration and spiritual rebirth (conversion) are 2 different things?

Can you give us the scriptures that says regeneration comes before faith?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Then how can you say regeneration and spiritual rebirth (conversion) are 2 different things?

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification


Regeneration is spiritual birth/born again

Conversion is faith and repentance.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Can you give us the scriptures that says regeneration comes before faith?

I gave you two how about addressing them?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Then you believe in Calvinism since the Reformed faith is largely based on this man's teaching.

I believe that God regenerated me (born again) which led to my conversion (faith and repentance).

BTW Sword do you realize that Calvinism verses Arminianism was never formally brought up once until you brought it up?

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The time between regeneration and conversion may be milliseconds such that a person may not distinguish between the two.

Where does the Bible teach that?

You know, Billy, Reformed theology does not comprise all of Christianity.Therefore, one cannot say this is what Christians believe. The Reformed faith is only one branch or belief system. There are millions of born again Christians who do not subscribe to it.. Calvin's teachings were extreme and much of what he believed he got from Augustine the catholic monk. Some of the reformers never wanted to leave the Roman church and thus they did keep some of their beliefs from this false religion.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Then you believe in Calvinism since the Reformed faith is largely based on this man's teaching.

Do you believe in Arminius whose teachings were condemned at the Synod of Dort?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Dort

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

Where does the Bible teach that?

Are you actually going to address the verses or are you into mud slinging?