The Calvinist-Arminian debate

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

. . .as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

I hate to tell you this Alan but I don't consider having a conversation with you to be a reward.

[alanmolstad]

* Posted this on wrong topic, here it is as it should have appeared *


The Free Will issue....



One of the central ideas of the Christian faith is the idea that we have Free Will, and that while we do have this gift, , the free Will we have operates well within the sovereignty of God over creation.


The Bible gives us a very clear example of how our freedom/ability/power to carry out our own wills is always yet under the sovereignty of God.

The example I speak of is found at JOHN 19:10
This verse and the one after it shows us clearly how both Free Will and God's sovereignty work in our lives.

""Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
This is human free will at work.
Pilate had the total free will to do what he wanted with Jesus.
He could let him go
He could send him to his death.
It was only Pilate's call to make.

No one was there that had any real power at all to force what decision was to happen.
Pilate could ***ign values to things to understand that he and he alone could value this or that more highly that other things as he thought about what he was about to do.

This is how we all see our human free will.

This is the very heart of the call the Christian puts out for people to "repent" and draw closer to God though Christ.
Unless we had this type of ability to make our own decisions, there would be no need, no point in asking people to repent.

So that is how Free Will is understood and taught in the Bible...

Next we will read the words of Christ as he shows us how God's Sovereignty works with Free Will.

John 19:11
"Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

Here we see how Human Free Will does not confront the Sovereignty of God at all.
The Free Will of Pilate is within the rule and control of God at all times....yet is never squashing the human free will at any time.

The fact that Jesus never once contradicts Pilate shows us that Jesus knew Pilate had the free will to do whatever he wanted.
But Jesus does point out the fact that God's Sovereignty is beyond human free will to counteract.
that human free will is a GIFT from God!

In the last part of the verse Jesus reminds us that we still will suffer for our sins, no matter the Sovereignty of God over creation.
That we and we alone are responsible for our actions, and they when we sin we face a Judgement for our sins.

And to sum it up?
All that I believe of Free Will is in full agreement with Dr Walter Martin as shown here - http://www.besked.se/audio/WM_EC31_1.mp3

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

One of the central ideas of the Christian faith is the idea that we have Free Will. . .

what verses teach that we are free to do anything we please whenever we please?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

* Posted this on wrong topic, here it is as it should have ap
The example I speak of is found at JOHN 19:10
This verse and the one after it shows us clearly how both Free Will and God's sovereignty work in our lives.

""Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
This is human free will at work.
Pilate had the total free will to do what he wanted with Jesus.
...........
John 19:11
"Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

Here we see how Human Free Will does not confront the Sovereignty of God at all.
The Free Will of Pilate is within the rule and control of God at all times....yet is never squashing the human free will at any time.

The fact that Jesus never once contradicts Pilate shows us that Jesus knew Pilate had the free will to do whatever he wanted.
But Jesus does point out the fact that God's Sovereignty is beyond human free will to counteract.
that human free will is a GIFT from God!

.....

I think a lot of people that argue from the lunatic ends just read only one side of the conversation between Jesus and Pilate and don't catch the true meanings.

What is going on in their conversation is the very heart of the whole free will/Sovereignty debate.

The verses are all the proof that we need to prove that Man has free.
The verses are all we need to also prove that God is sovereign.
Both ideas are at work in the story.\Both are in effect and yet we never are to believe there is any confrontation between the two ideas.

[alanmolstad]

Does God ever ask a person to do things the person is unable to do?......

The answer is....no!

All that God asks of us is within our ability to do.
If it were not within our ability then there would be no point in asking us to do it.

Another thing to keep in mind....If we are totally unable to do something that God has commanded us to do, then there would be no way for God to legitimately judge us for failing to do what he asked.

God could never send anyone to Hell for failing to keep his Commandments if we were unable to keep them.
it is only because there is nothing about the Commandments that is beyond our ability to keep that God has the legitimate right to judge us for failing to keep them.

What we have to always remember however, is that the "ABILITY" to do something is not the same as the "LIKELIHOOD" to do it.

All of us have the "ability" to lead a sinless life and fulfill all the things that god might ask us to follow.
There is nothing out of reach for any of the Laws and Commandments that appear in the Bible.
There is no hard math involved.
No super-duper hard mountain to climb.
No heavy rock we have to lift and carry.

But the fact that we all know we have the "ability" to keep all the law does not make it "Likely" at all that we could do so day after day....LOL

It's like...
(a true story)
It's like the time I invited a friend to come to church with me and my wife.
I knew this friend was trapped in a lot of false teachings, and his faith life was at a dead end.
So i invited him to church with us in the hope that he might be moved by the Alter Call at the end, and walk forward.

But he just sat though the Alter call and that was that.

Now did he have the ability to step out and go forward?>....yes!
I made sure we sat near the front, so it was not a long walk.
I made sure he sat on the end so there was no one in his way.
He has two strong legs and so i knew he could walk forward when the Alter Call was made to do so.

So my friend had the "ABILITY" to answer the Alter Call.
But just having the ability does not mean it's going to be "LIKELY'' .

Its the same with all that God asks us to do.
We have the ability to do what is asked....but it's not very likely to be sure that we will always do it.

So the Law of God was never meant to be a trick question.

[alanmolstad]

about this recording - http://www.besked.se/audio/WM_EC31_1.mp3

Although I had listened to tons of recordings of Walter Martin over the years, and I never missed a radio show, to tell the truth I did not actually know what Walter's views on this topic were when I first started posting my own here.

So I was a bit nervous when I clicked on that link to listen to what he taught, knowing that if Walter Martin disagreed with me that I would be forced to share that information with others too, and due to my respect of all that Martin taught I would have to spend some time on my own thinking about what he was saying.

However, as I listened to this short recording I was struck by how Walter was taking the words right out of my mouth!...LOL

He and I are in total agreement on the errors of Calvinism!

I have tried to search out and find more recordings of Walter Martin teaching on this same issue of the errors of Calvinism, but mostly i just keep finding YouTube videos of his debates with the CULTS and stuff like that.


Now that I found this one little recording i plan to hang on to it and use it in a lot of my posts, because of the respect most Christians have of Martin, and the fact that this whole website is created in his memory.

No one would even be here in the first place unless they understood the importance of the work of Walter Martin.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)

Alan, can you obey the commandments perfectly and live a life like Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Does God ever ask a person to do things the person is unable to do?......

The answer is....no!

Actually Alan the answer is yes. You are completely wrong on this one.

[alanmolstad]

By the way, if anyone reading this knows of other places where Walter Martin spoke on this topic I would enjoy having a chance to go over that too.



So far I have had no luck in finding a short recording of Martin speaking on this issue.
He may have taught on the topic as part of a longer sermon on the CULTS.....but that may be had to find now and he p***ed away before the internet and Youtube got cooking, so everything he spoke about has to be uploaded now later by interested persons.