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Thread: The Calvinist-Arminian debate

  1. #101
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    Here is a question for you to chew on.
    According to JOHN 14:15 what is the sign you love Christ?
    Do you keep ALL of the commandments and live a life free from sin?

  2. #102
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Do you keep ALL of the commandments and live a life free from sin?
    I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

    You ask the same questions over and over.
    Its no fun at all to try to have a conversation with someone who just simply says the same thing over and over without allowing the conversation to flow normally.

    I consider behavior of your Billy to be bad manners.

    I consider my own posts to be worth people taking the time to read, but when it becomes clear that im dealing with a person who is not actually interested in a real conversation, then I put their names on my IIGNORE list forever..

    unless you get your **** banned by the forum owner again...

    in that case, (If I once again see you listed as Banned) then I will take your name off my IGNORE list with the idea that you may have learned your lesson and as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

    I will also see about using the IGNORE setting at the other forums where you and i might accidentally bump into each other....(why drag that out)


    take care....

  3. #103
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"
    Alan I guess for you it is easier to run rather than admit you are wrong. You did this same thing on the CARM "Arminian verses Calvinism--Free Will" thread when Theo was pinning you to the wall. So it is not just me that has tried to expose your error. Maybe some day you will see your error.

  4. #104
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    . . .as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.
    I hate to tell you this Alan but I don't consider having a conversation with you to be a reward.

  5. #105
    alanmolstad
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    * Posted this on wrong topic, here it is as it should have appeared *


    The Free Will issue....




    One of the central ideas of the Christian faith is the idea that we have Free Will, and that while we do have this gift, , the free Will we have operates well within the sovereignty of God over creation.


    The Bible gives us a very clear example of how our freedom/ability/power to carry out our own wills is always yet under the sovereignty of God.

    The example I speak of is found at JOHN 19:10
    This verse and the one after it shows us clearly how both Free Will and God's sovereignty work in our lives.

    ""Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
    This is human free will at work.
    Pilate had the total free will to do what he wanted with Jesus.
    He could let him go
    He could send him to his death.
    It was only Pilate's call to make.

    No one was there that had any real power at all to force what decision was to happen.
    Pilate could ***ign values to things to understand that he and he alone could value this or that more highly that other things as he thought about what he was about to do.

    This is how we all see our human free will.

    This is the very heart of the call the Christian puts out for people to "repent" and draw closer to God though Christ.
    Unless we had this type of ability to make our own decisions, there would be no need, no point in asking people to repent.

    So that is how Free Will is understood and taught in the Bible...

    Next we will read the words of Christ as he shows us how God's Sovereignty works with Free Will.

    John 19:11
    "Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

    Here we see how Human Free Will does not confront the Sovereignty of God at all.
    The Free Will of Pilate is within the rule and control of God at all times....yet is never squashing the human free will at any time.

    The fact that Jesus never once contradicts Pilate shows us that Jesus knew Pilate had the free will to do whatever he wanted.
    But Jesus does point out the fact that God's Sovereignty is beyond human free will to counteract.
    that human free will is a GIFT from God!

    In the last part of the verse Jesus reminds us that we still will suffer for our sins, no matter the Sovereignty of God over creation.
    That we and we alone are responsible for our actions, and they when we sin we face a Judgement for our sins.

    And to sum it up?
    All that I believe of Free Will is in full agreement with Dr Walter Martin as shown here - http://www.besked.se/audio/WM_EC31_1.mp3

  6. #106
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    One of the central ideas of the Christian faith is the idea that we have Free Will. . .
    what verses teach that we are free to do anything we please whenever we please?

  7. #107
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    * Posted this on wrong topic, here it is as it should have ap
    The example I speak of is found at JOHN 19:10
    This verse and the one after it shows us clearly how both Free Will and God's sovereignty work in our lives.

    ""Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
    This is human free will at work.
    Pilate had the total free will to do what he wanted with Jesus.
    ...........
    John 19:11
    "Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

    Here we see how Human Free Will does not confront the Sovereignty of God at all.
    The Free Will of Pilate is within the rule and control of God at all times....yet is never squashing the human free will at any time.

    The fact that Jesus never once contradicts Pilate shows us that Jesus knew Pilate had the free will to do whatever he wanted.
    But Jesus does point out the fact that God's Sovereignty is beyond human free will to counteract.
    that human free will is a GIFT from God!

    .....
    I think a lot of people that argue from the lunatic ends just read only one side of the conversation between Jesus and Pilate and don't catch the true meanings.

    What is going on in their conversation is the very heart of the whole free will/Sovereignty debate.

    The verses are all the proof that we need to prove that Man has free.
    The verses are all we need to also prove that God is sovereign.
    Both ideas are at work in the story.\Both are in effect and yet we never are to believe there is any confrontation between the two ideas.

  8. #108
    alanmolstad
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    Default Was the Law a trick question?

    Does God ever ask a person to do things the person is unable to do?......

    The answer is....no!

    All that God asks of us is within our ability to do.
    If it were not within our ability then there would be no point in asking us to do it.

    Another thing to keep in mind....If we are totally unable to do something that God has commanded us to do, then there would be no way for God to legitimately judge us for failing to do what he asked.

    God could never send anyone to Hell for failing to keep his Commandments if we were unable to keep them.
    it is only because there is nothing about the Commandments that is beyond our ability to keep that God has the legitimate right to judge us for failing to keep them.

    What we have to always remember however, is that the "ABILITY" to do something is not the same as the "LIKELIHOOD" to do it.

    All of us have the "ability" to lead a sinless life and fulfill all the things that god might ask us to follow.
    There is nothing out of reach for any of the Laws and Commandments that appear in the Bible.
    There is no hard math involved.
    No super-duper hard mountain to climb.
    No heavy rock we have to lift and carry.

    But the fact that we all know we have the "ability" to keep all the law does not make it "Likely" at all that we could do so day after day....LOL

    It's like...
    (a true story)
    It's like the time I invited a friend to come to church with me and my wife.
    I knew this friend was trapped in a lot of false teachings, and his faith life was at a dead end.
    So i invited him to church with us in the hope that he might be moved by the Alter Call at the end, and walk forward.

    But he just sat though the Alter call and that was that.

    Now did he have the ability to step out and go forward?>....yes!
    I made sure we sat near the front, so it was not a long walk.
    I made sure he sat on the end so there was no one in his way.
    He has two strong legs and so i knew he could walk forward when the Alter Call was made to do so.

    So my friend had the "ABILITY" to answer the Alter Call.
    But just having the ability does not mean it's going to be "LIKELY'' .

    Its the same with all that God asks us to do.
    We have the ability to do what is asked....but it's not very likely to be sure that we will always do it.

    So the Law of God was never meant to be a trick question.

  9. #109
    alanmolstad
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    about this recording - http://www.besked.se/audio/WM_EC31_1.mp3

    Although I had listened to tons of recordings of Walter Martin over the years, and I never missed a radio show, to tell the truth I did not actually know what Walter's views on this topic were when I first started posting my own here.

    So I was a bit nervous when I clicked on that link to listen to what he taught, knowing that if Walter Martin disagreed with me that I would be forced to share that information with others too, and due to my respect of all that Martin taught I would have to spend some time on my own thinking about what he was saying.

    However, as I listened to this short recording I was struck by how Walter was taking the words right out of my mouth!...LOL

    He and I are in total agreement on the errors of Calvinism!

    I have tried to search out and find more recordings of Walter Martin teaching on this same issue of the errors of Calvinism, but mostly i just keep finding YouTube videos of his debates with the CULTS and stuff like that.


    Now that I found this one little recording i plan to hang on to it and use it in a lot of my posts, because of the respect most Christians have of Martin, and the fact that this whole website is created in his memory.

    No one would even be here in the first place unless they understood the importance of the work of Walter Martin.

  10. #110
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)
    Alan, can you obey the commandments perfectly and live a life like Christ?

  11. #111
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Does God ever ask a person to do things the person is unable to do?......

    The answer is....no!
    Actually Alan the answer is yes. You are completely wrong on this one.

  12. #112
    alanmolstad
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    By the way, if anyone reading this knows of other places where Walter Martin spoke on this topic I would enjoy having a chance to go over that too.



    So far I have had no luck in finding a short recording of Martin speaking on this issue.
    He may have taught on the topic as part of a longer sermon on the CULTS.....but that may be had to find now and he p***ed away before the internet and Youtube got cooking, so everything he spoke about has to be uploaded now later by interested persons.

  13. #113
    alanmolstad
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    Again, to make sure you understand...
    I do not place people on my IGNORE LIST because they ask questions, or because they disagree with me, or because they are in a CULT or because they are a different religion or color or from a different country.

    But I only place people on my IGNORE LIST after I have warned them over and over about showing bad manners, or breaking the forum rules.
    This is why there are only 2 names on my IGNORE list.

    Once a person gets on my IGNORE LIST I believe I am better off not reading their posts from then on.
    This is the only form of "correction" I can bring to people.
    I can refuse to read their words....

    Now there is one way off my IGNORE list and that is if i see someone who is on my IGNORE LIST has been banned by the owner of the forum.

    It is my personal view that once a person's behavior has gotten so bad that it caused the owner of the forum to actually take the step to BAN them that i should offer them the chance to come back having learned their lesson.

    It is my way of supporting the actions of the forum's owner as she attempts to get people to show better manners on the message board.

    Reading my posts should be seen as a type of reward for changing your behavior, just as returning to read YOUR POSTS is a reward for you posting with correct manners.

    Until then?...........nice try, but nope you are still not being read.







    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

    You ask the same questions over and over.
    Its no fun at all to try to have a conversation with someone who just simply says the same thing over and over without allowing the conversation to flow normally.

    I consider your behavior Billyray to be bad manners.

    I consider my own posts to be worth people taking the time to read, but when it becomes clear that im dealing with a person who is not actually interested in a real conversation, then I put their names on my IIGNORE list forever..

    unless you get your **** banned by the forum owner again...

    in that case, (If I once again see you listed as Banned) then I will take your name off my IGNORE list with the idea that you may have learned your lesson and as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

    I will also see about using the IGNORE setting at the other forums where you and i might accidentally bump into each other....(why drag that out)


    take care....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-15-2011 at 05:00 AM.

  14. #114
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    But I only place people on my IGNORE LIST after I have warned them over and over about showing bad manners, or breaking the forum rules.
    Alan who are you kidding? When you get backed into a corner you ignore the messenger. This is obvious here and it was obvious on the CARM board.

  15. #115
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Reading my posts should be seen as a type of reward for changing your behavior, just as returning to read YOUR POSTS is a reward for you posting with correct manners.
    Alan reading your posts are not a reward but more like slow torture. It pains me to read your false doctrine while at the same time your refusing any feedback to your falsehoods.

  16. #116
    Jean Chauvin
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    Default Alan Is A Non-Christian Heretic

    Hi Alan,

    The Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost".
    The Bible is also clear that once you are lost there is no other path to salvation except via the Son.
    Unless you wrote something you didnt mean because you attended public school, the statement you posted disqualified you from the Christian Faith.

    Onlly one statement disqualifies you, the other does not, it simply makes you extremely impotent. Thus you have theological E.D.

    You hold to a pure cl***ical Pelagius position. By saying that once you sin, you are then lost is exactly what his position was. Thus he denied original sin that you are bore into sin (Romans 5:12-18).

    Therefore the issue has turned from your ignorance on Calvinism and Arminian to whether or not you are going to hell on the path of heresy you choose.

    The semi-pelagianism is what the educated Arminianism proponents would view. That when Adam fell we were not completely dead but sick. Our reason did not fall and we are still able to make decisions.

    The Calvinist view would be Augustinian. That original sin means you are completely dead in sin. Your corpse is 10,000 feet under the ocean for 4000 years, your flesh is decayed and your skelton is broken in pieces. Completely dead.

    In order for this heretic Alan to justify his complete heresy by taken the pure pelagius view is by saying that God would not ask us to do somethingn if it wasn't true. lol. He fails to define what us means.

    Thus, lets focus on this heretic and let an educated person like myself actually represent both sides correctly and have the chips fall where they may.

    Alan, either you worded something you did not mean because of your public school education, or you are a complete heretic.

    Respectfully,

    Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

  17. #117
    Jean Chauvin
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    Default The Real Issue

    Hello,

    We see that the real issue between Arminianism and Calvinism starts with the fall.

    As I said to the potential heretic Alan. there are 3 views to keep in mind.

    The Fall (3 Views

    Pelagian View - We are not born into sin and are not lost until we sin

    Semi-Pelagianism - The fall made me sick. I can still reason but not well

    Augustinianism - We were completely dead when born. This includes everything, reason, etc.

    Arminism is Semi-Pelagius
    Calvinism is Augustinian

    Those who hold the Pelagian View are outside of the Chrisitan faith since they violate an essential doctrine to the faith.

    See Romans 5:12-18 on this issue.

    We need to start with the fall because this is where the beginning of the issue.

    Respectfully,

    Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

  18. #118
    alanmolstad
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    one sin,,,no matter how small , is more than enough to send a person to hell forever.


    one act of faith in Jesus, no matter the years and years of the worst sins a person can do, is still enough to find forgiveness and spend forever in Heaven...


    Its like the water of baptism.

    If your heart is not ready, then all the water in all the seas is not enough top wash away the stain of the smallest of sins.

    But if your heart is read, then one drop of water is more than enough to make your soul totally clean....

  19. #119
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Chauvin View Post
    As I said to the potential heretic Alan. .
    I forgive you....
    Your false judgements, (although a hallmark of your posts it seems) are based on ignorance.....but with time I believe a few lights will start to turn on over there...LOL

  20. #120
    cheachea
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    This is a great video on the subject :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DII1GwVQ4qU

  21. #121
    cheachea
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    Does a Born Again Christian have to choose either side ? What if you just don't care either way and just believe in The Lord Jesus Christ ?

    What would you call a Christian before John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius were even born ?

  22. #122
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheachea View Post
    Does a Born Again Christian have to choose either side ? What if you just don't care either way and just believe in The Lord Jesus Christ ?

    What would you call a Christian before John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius were even born ?
    Well neither Calvin nor Arminus invented the Predestination doctrine. They just expounded on their interpretation of what the Bible says about it. True Christians do not follow any man.
    Last edited by TheSword99; 10-25-2012 at 05:39 AM.

  23. #123
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Chauvin View Post
    Unless you wrote something you didnt mean because you attended public school, the statement you posted disqualified you from the Christian Faith.

    Onlly one statement disqualifies you, the other does not, it simply makes you extremely impotent. Thus you have theological E.D.

    ....

    In order for this heretic Alan to justify his complete heresy by taken the .......
    Thus, lets focus on this heretic and let an educated person like myself actually represent both sides correctly and have the chips fall where they may.

    Alan, either you worded something you did not mean because of your public school education, or you are a complete heretic.

    Respectfully,

    Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

    I never got around to addressing this personal attack...

    Anyone know whatever happened to this poster?...as I think I should find a way to respond to this post of his...

  24. #124
    cheachea
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Well neither Calvin nor Arminus invented the Predestination doctrine. They just expounded on their interpretation of what the Bible says about it. True Christians do not follow any man.


    Good Comment.

  25. #125
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Chauvin View Post
    Hi Alan,



    Unless you wrote something you didnt mean because you attended public school, the statement you posted disqualified you from the Christian Faith.

    Onlly one statement disqualifies you, the other does not, it simply makes you extremely impotent. Thus you have theological E.D.

    You hold to a pure cl***ical Pelagius position. By saying that once you sin, you are then lost is exactly what his position was. Thus he denied original sin that you are bore into sin (Romans 5:12-18).

    Therefore the issue has turned from your ignorance on Calvinism and Arminian to whether or not you are going to hell on the path of heresy you choose.

    The semi-pelagianism is what the educated Arminianism proponents would view. That when Adam fell we were not completely dead but sick. Our reason did not fall and we are still able to make decisions.

    The Calvinist view would be Augustinian. That original sin means you are completely dead in sin. Your corpse is 10,000 feet under the ocean for 4000 years, your flesh is decayed and your skelton is broken in pieces. Completely dead.

    In order for this heretic Alan to justify his complete heresy by taken the pure pelagius view is by saying that God would not ask us to do somethingn if it wasn't true. lol. He fails to define what us means.

    Thus, lets focus on this heretic and let an educated person like myself actually represent both sides correctly and have the chips fall where they may.

    Alan, either you worded something you did not mean because of your public school education, or you are a complete heretic.

    Respectfully,

    Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
    To tell the truth, this post above, as well as most all the others that you seem to put on this forum, smack me of being silly and totally mixed-up.

    I don't really think you know what you are talking about most of the time, and you seem to not have a real good grasp of how to set your ideas down in writing so that others might understand you.

    I think you are dead wrong about me and my views.
    Just as i think you are dead wrong about some judgements you made against a few other members of this message board.

    I don't think you got the slightest clue as to what I'm talking about.

    I don't think you have the slightest idea what my views are.

    I don't think you have a very clear way of posting, and I find most all that you say just a little bit insulting.

    I have not tried to seek out your views after you first started to post here as I did not think asking you any questions would prove useful....I have seen other members here attempt to talk to you and have found your responses to them to be very unfriendly and not worth much.

    I simply do not think you have many views worth the time they take to read.

    I suggest you think before you write something, and think of what is a better way to say something.....
    I suggest that before you declare me to be a non-Christian, that you find out a few facts about me first.

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