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Thread: The Calvinist-Arminian debate

  1. #26
    alanmolstad
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    Remember we are looking at such issues from the human/limited point of view.

    if we want later we can look at the same issues from God's point of view and then we will see different answers.

    We will come to different answers, but still true answers.

    This is the way to look at the whole Calvinist-Arminian debate, in that both sides have "some" good points as well as a bit of the Lunatic Fringe.

  2. #27
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Since you admit that it is possible to live a perfect life exactly like Jesus, how many have lived a perfect life thus not requiring the atonement for their salvation?
    haven't the slightest idea....
    (well there is my mom of course...and my aunt, etc)

  3. #28
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    haven't the slightest idea....
    (well there is my mom of course...and my aunt, etc)
    But you would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?

  4. #29
    alanmolstad
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    Remember, we are never asked by God to do things we cant do.

    Although we tend to want to point the finger of blame at other people and other things as to the reason we fail, the correct answer is that the failure is our own.

    Being a creature with free will means we have the ability to Love God.
    Rocks can love....dust cant love...

    Im sure the dust was seen by God as "good".....
    Im sure the dust was loved by God as being "good" in his eyes.
    But I also sure that the dust did not Love God back.

    We can love ,
    We can do this because we have free will .

    the down side is that the freedom to love also brings with it the freedom to hate.

    The freedom to do what is right and please God, also brings with it the freedom to value things incorrectly, and place other items on the list of things to do that take the place of other correct things ...

    hate and Sin are the result of being a creature with free will.
    hate and sin are a lot like rocks going down a hill....once they get going in a person's life they tend to really get going.

    But we are commanded to Love.

    We would not be asked to do that if we had no ability to Love..

    Dust cant love, Dust is never asked to love.

    Being asked to do something carries with it the connotation that you can do this...(or why ask?)
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-30-2011 at 07:25 AM.

  5. #30
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Remember, we are never asked by God to do things we cant do.
    Then my question should be an easy one for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    . .You would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?

  6. #31
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But you would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?
    I would not use the term "Save himself", because the word "save' means that the person was at one time 'lost".

    the Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost",,,the bible is also clear that once you are lost there is no other path to salvation except via the Son.


    So in a very real way we cant say a person can "save themselves" because that would mean they were lost and once you are lost it dont matter how many things you do right, you are lost.

    The christian faith is not a works-based salvation.
    Once you become lost you can not save yourself by actions or works to earn some type of 'merit'.

    But what of they who dont sin?
    they who have no ability to sin, or they who simply dont?
    (children, people with mental issues etc)

    They are like what Paul was saying that before the Law he was alive.
    Then the law came, and sin took the opportunity it saw when the law came and sprang to life in his heart and Paul was then dead in his sins.

    But before sin sprang to life in his heart, he was alive, and not covered under the blood of the cross....and quite frankly, really no need to be covered under the blood of Christ.

    But sin springs to life easy in us, and as we cant work our way off the list of the ****ed, we have but the cross of Christ as our only means of salvation at that point.

  7. #32
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I would not use the term "Save himself", because the word "save' means that the person was at one time 'lost".
    Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

  8. #33
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?
    I believe I have answer that question above....

  9. #34
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I believe I have answer that question above....
    Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

    Alan's answer to this question is YES.

  10. #35
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Alan's answer to this question is... (see below).
    The Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost".
    The Bible is also clear that once you are lost there is no other path to salvation except via the Son.


    So in a very real way we cant say a person can "save themselves" because that would mean they were lost and once you are lost it don't matter how many things you do right, you are lost.

    The christian faith is not a works-based salvation.
    Once you become lost you can not save yourself by actions or works to earn some type of 'merit'.

    But what of they who don't sin?
    They who have no ability to sin, or they who simply dont?
    (children, people with mental issues etc)

    They are like what Paul was saying that before the Law he was alive.
    Then the law came, and sin took the opportunity it saw when the law came and sprang to life in his heart and Paul was then dead in his sins.

    But before sin sprang to life in his heart, he was alive, and not covered under the blood of the cross....and quite frankly, really no need to be covered under the blood of Christ.

    But sin springs to life easy in us, and as we cant work our way off the list of the ****ed, we have but the cross of Christ as our only means of salvation at that point.

    (By the way, Alan writes his own answers to questions, thank you very much)

  11. #36
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost".
    So now you are saying that it is impossible to keep the commandments?

  12. #37
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So now you are saying that it is impossible to keep the commandments?
    if it were impossible, then why ask us to keep them?

    It would be like asking us to fly,,,,

    But dont kid yourself... while the spirit is very willing to do what is right every time, the flesh is also just as ready to do what is wrong every time.

    Do I do what is wrong every time?
    No I do not.

    Thats why Im asked to do what is right, even knowing the personal struggle it can be with the flesh God still asks us to do what is right, BECAUSE WE CAN!....

    We are NEVER asked to do something we cant do.
    The moment you have a God that asks you to do something you cant do, you are in a CULT.

    CULTS have all kinds of gods that ask the impossible,,,,

    But the Christian God is not like that.
    Even when we do sin, God still asks us to do things he knows we can do.

    He asks us to repent and come to His son...

    He asks this because WE CAN!

    Christ stands at the door to our hearts and knocks.
    he knocks because He knows we can hear him, and he also knows we can open the door to him.

    If we could not hear him, he would not bother to knock.

    If we could not open that door to our hearts, there would be no need to knock.

  13. #38
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    We are NEVER asked to do something we cant do.

    Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

  14. #39
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?
    ask me that one more time...I dare you.....

  15. #40
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    ask me that one more time...I dare you.....
    I dare you to answer the question Alan. It is not a difficult question. You are acting like BigJ now by not addressing my question.

    Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

  16. #41
    alanmolstad
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    Default The day Billy asked to be on my IGNORE LIST....

    They who babble on an internet message forum....
    I have ZERO patience for them.

    Mostly they are people who have a hard time engaging in real conversations.
    They can only follow a mental script that they have for how they wish a conversation to go.

    The problem is that their mental image is flawed.
    Its flawed for while they are prepared to follow it the script, the other doesn't even know there is a script.
    Let alone have even the slightest interest in keeping true to it.

    The result?

    The result sometimes, (many times) is that a frustration builds up with the other person who simply will not follow the script.

    So when someone is asked a question and the "wrong" answer is given, the only way some people know how to handle that is to ask the same question again and again......in the hope that somehow the other person will give the only answer allowed by the script.


    over and over they ask....

    It does not matter a hoot that the answer to the question is given, they ask it again looking for the hope-for scripted answer because then they will know what to ask next.

    The ending of this?
    The only way to end this is by BANNING.....

    Its the only thing that some people can understand.
    You have to see things from their point of view...

    Getting their **** banned, or BLOCKED is not in their script at all....far from it.

    Its the last thing they expect, and so thats why they acted with such poor manners in the first place...
    They never expected to be put on Alan's "IGNORE LIST"

    That is why when warned that pay no attention to the warning...

    But next time?
    Oh heck yes!
    Next time they will see it coming a mile away, and act accordingly in a manner that diverts away from that possibility.


    Billy , you babble.
    I have not got the time for it, and you have made it clear you want me to add your name to my IGNORE list....
    so be it.
    I will do so....

    Take care.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-30-2011 at 08:37 AM.

  17. #42
    alanmolstad
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    building on what I was talking about on my thread....

    We have to keep in mind our human and thereby limited point of view when we look at the salvation question.

    from our point of view, there is no list of names of the lost and the saved written yet.
    its all completely unknown.

    No one knows the result of speaking a word to someone here, a message left there...

    This means that when we go out into the world to follow the command of the "Great Commission" we do so thinking that the Whole World can be saved!

    we do so thinking that that every person can be saved, that none will be lost.

    Thats the point in sending us out to the lost world...we are to bring the message that will save it.

    But with this Great Commission to save the world, there carries with it the understanding that man can listen, or man can turn away.

    thats the problem with human free will....it means that the church can bring the Good news to people and they can just turn away and remain lost....

    its up to them.

    this human free will gives us the ability to love God, but it also brings with it the idea that we can and will be held to give account for our actions.

    Human free will means we are responsible.

  18. #43
    alanmolstad
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    Now there are some teachers who believe that man does not have free will.

    They hold to the idea that we are powerless to do anything, and are, well, basically soulless robots with the wrong programing in control of our actions.

    This is a silly idea.

    If we were robots we would not be in need of salvation,..(robots do not sin)

    if we did not have free will we could not be held responsible for our actions.
    The wind and the rain does not have free will, and so we cant actually blame it's lack of morals for messing up our hair.

    You can gauge how much free will humans have by the amount of responsibility we are called to account for.
    We look at the bible and find that the result of being found guilty in the Final judgement is eternal hell.

    You look at what forever in Hell will be like, and you come away understanding the tremendous amount of free will needed to justify that amount of punishment.

  19. #44
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    We are NEVER asked to do something we cant do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?
    You see Alan backed himself into a corner. If he answered my question that is consistent with his position then he would have to answer that yes a person can live a perfect life and not need the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation. He has no choice but to change his position OR put me on ignore. He chose the dishonorable thing and put me on ignore.

  20. #45
    alanmolstad
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    When I was back in Bible school, I had a cl*** that did a study of the Calvinist-Arminian debate.
    We looked at the different teachers , the times they wront within, and the different ways each looked at the question of man's responsibility in salvation.

    later each of the student in my cl*** had to stand before the cl*** and teacher and give a report on what we had learned, and the conclusions we had come to after our study.

    Most of the students took one side of the issue or the other.

    I did not.

    I found both sides to have much truth to their views, lots of support in the Bible, and yet they both were also lacking what the other side had.

    They both seemed to 'missed something" that the other side had picked up.

    They both also had positions that if you took them to the natural extreme would be insane.

    The one thing I noticed was that both side tend to view the issues from a point of view, eithor God's (all knowing) or man's (very limited), and thus made some rather drastic errors based only on a failure to see things from a different point of view.

    Both POV are true and correct, but both POV are also very different too.

  21. #46
    alanmolstad
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    The conclusions I came to in my final report to my teacher was that:
    #1 - Man has free will
    #2 - God is sovereign.


    Both ideas are in play at the same time, without contradiction of confrontation.

  22. #47
    alanmolstad
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    Now lets next look at the question of "Can a person do what is right?"

    I think the answer is found in the very act of asking others to do what is right.

    lets make this easy to see what im talking about:
    Im on a message forum right now.
    Other people are posting things to me to answer.
    But lets also say there is a poster that has bad manners and the owner of the forum tells the person with bad manners that they better straighten up and fly right or will get kicked off the forum.

    Now the moment the owner of the forum sends this type of message/warning it carries with it the idea that the person in question CAN obey.

    There is no point in the owner of a forum demanding people follow some rules if no one has the ability to know what the rules are, let alone follow them.

    Thus we can know the person must be able to change and follow the rules because we see them asked to do so.

    The asking proves the other person can.

    But lets say that later you learn that the other person has been banned?
    If that happens, then the banned person only has himself to blame for being punished.
    They know they had the free will sufficient to have changed their behavior and thereby not been banned.

    So to return to the opening question , the person could have done what was right, but because of free will and a personal view of what was more important at the time, made a poor choice and had to pay for it.

    The fact that a person is asked to do something carries with it the understanding that the person can do it.

    or else there was no point in asking them in the first place.

  23. #48
    alanmolstad
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    The next question deals with the question of if man has free will or not?

    My answer is that "Hell proves we have free will"

    Its that simple.

    The very fact that hell is real means that we are held responsible for our actions.
    And, only free will makes this all possible.

    Take away free will and there is no responsibility for our actions.
    Take away our free will and there is no hell.
    But take away our free will and there is no way to return our love to God....we are back to being dust.

    God may have loved the dust, but the dust didnt love Him back.

  24. #49
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    And, only free will makes this all possible.
    .
    If people had complete free will then they would be ABLE to obey the commandments perfectly. This means that it is possible for a person to live a sin free life, just like Jesus, and therefore have no need for a savior. Alan I think you should reconsider your position. Oh yea I forgot, you put me on ignore so you can't read my post. Well continue on posting to yourself.

  25. #50
    alanmolstad
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    Now that I have looked at the question of man's salvation from strictly the human (limited) POV, I think I might spend a little time and look at some of the same issues from God's (all-knowing) POV.

    No one is accidentally saved.
    The fact that some Joe-**** is saved is the result of the direct action of god to intervene into the person's life and make them saved.

    its than simple...

    God makes us saved.
    we cant just say it was 'accidental" from god's point of view..

    nor can we just try to say that God left the salvation of Joe up to random chance, or the flip of a coin.

    another thing we cant say is that God just acted to save joe because god also just happened to see the future and so was just setting things up to happen as he foresaw.
    You cant say that about God for that in effect makes God powerless to to a future out of his control.

    God actually has full control of the future.

    thus the fact that Joe ends up saved is , (and always was) predetermined...pre-planned, and a 100% guarantee of happening because god used his authority to MAKE it happen.

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