The Calvinist-Arminian debate

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

haven't the slightest idea....
(well there is my mom of course...and my aunt, etc)

But you would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?

I would not use the term "Save himself", because the word "save' means that the person was at one time 'lost".

the Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost",,,the bible is also clear that once you are lost there is no other path to salvation except via the Son.


So in a very real way we cant say a person can "save themselves" because that would mean they were lost and once you are lost it dont matter how many things you do right, you are lost.

The christian faith is not a works-based salvation.
Once you become lost you can not save yourself by actions or works to earn some type of 'merit'.

But what of they who dont sin?
they who have no ability to sin, or they who simply dont?
(children, people with mental issues etc)

They are like what Paul was saying that before the Law he was alive.
Then the law came, and sin took the opportunity it saw when the law came and sprang to life in his heart and Paul was then dead in his sins.

But before sin sprang to life in his heart, he was alive, and not covered under the blood of the cross....and quite frankly, really no need to be covered under the blood of Christ.

But sin springs to life easy in us, and as we cant work our way off the list of the ****ed, we have but the cross of Christ as our only means of salvation at that point.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I would not use the term "Save himself", because the word "save' means that the person was at one time 'lost".

Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Remember, we are never asked by God to do things we cant do.

Although we tend to want to point the finger of blame at other people and other things as to the reason we fail, the correct answer is that the failure is our own.

Being a creature with free will means we have the ability to Love God.
Rocks can love....dust cant love...

Im sure the dust was seen by God as "good".....
Im sure the dust was loved by God as being "good" in his eyes.
But I also sure that the dust did not Love God back.

We can love ,
We can do this because we have free will .

the down side is that the freedom to love also brings with it the freedom to hate.

The freedom to do what is right and please God, also brings with it the freedom to value things incorrectly, and place other items on the list of things to do that take the place of other correct things ...

hate and Sin are the result of being a creature with free will.
hate and sin are a lot like rocks going down a hill....once they get going in a person's life they tend to really get going.

But we are commanded to Love.

We would not be asked to do that if we had no ability to Love..

Dust cant love, Dust is never asked to love.

Being asked to do something carries with it the connotation that you can do this...(or why ask?)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Remember, we are never asked by God to do things we cant do.

Then my question should be an easy one for you.

Originally Posted by Billyray

. .You would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?

[alanmolstad]

Remember we are looking at such issues from the human/limited point of view.

if we want later we can look at the same issues from God's point of view and then we will see different answers.

We will come to different answers, but still true answers.

This is the way to look at the whole Calvinist-Arminian debate, in that both sides have "some" good points as well as a bit of the Lunatic Fringe.

[alanmolstad]

one more time...

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

There is NO point in asking people to do things ("be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect") if the person you request this of is totally unable to do what you are asking.

You could NEVER ask humans to fly with wings because ...well...God didnt give us wings.

Now if God had designed humans with wings "THEN" we could be asked, AND EXPECTED to fly when asked to fly...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)

Alan, can you obey the commandments perfectly and live a life like Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan, can you obey the commandments perfectly and live a life like Christ?

I have answered that question already....
You seem stuck on it...its like you don't get the answer you want so you cant get past it?...

Tough luck kid....

Here is how I roll....I never put up with trouble makers or people that babble on and on without a clue....
I ban them by adding their names on my IGNORE LIST...

However if I should later find that someone on my IGNORE LIST has actually been banned by the forum owner, then i believe it is better that i un-ban them from being on my IGNORE LIST because not doing that might make me guilty of adding to/getting in the way of, a problem that is being dealt with by the forum owner.


However, asking the same question over and over is a sign that the conversation is reaching its limit...


4 the final time...
..... once again the answer that i gave a long time ago....

God NEVER asks us to do things that we cant do, nor would he then condemn us for failing to do what we were unable to do in the first place...
Thus....lets look at the things our Lord Jesus told us to do.


Lets look at the Christian idea of "Love your enemy"

Is there anything about this concept that is physically out of our ability to do?.......NO!

Ok.....then is there anything mentally too hard about the concept that is simply beyond our limited human minds to understand?.......NO!

So there is nothing really all that hard to understand about the idea of loving your enemy.....

So does my being able to understand this statement by Christ mean Im likely going to fulfill it all the time, every day of my life, until the day i die?.....HECK NO!

My being able to do something does not mean I'm likely to always do it....

So the FINAL ANSWER IS = God would NEVER ask me to do anything that i cant do.

God never asked me to flap my arms and fly like a bird to be saved...

God never asked me to Drink 1 million gal of acid before I can be saved.

God did not do that, and never asked me to do that because I cant and God knows I cant do such things...

But we have been told to do a few things by God, and they are things God knows we can do...

But when any of us fail we have an advocate with the father....


That (in a nutshell) is the answer i gave to this question a long time ago...

See posts # 15, 17, 19, 22, 24, 29, 31, 35, 37, on this topic if you have any farther questions on this matter.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God NEVER asks us to do things that we cant do, nor would he then condemn us for failing to do what we were unable to do in the first place...

Then you have to believe that it is possible for you to live a perfect life like Christ. Alan this is completely false and nobody believes this. You should reconsider your position.

[alanmolstad]

Let me say this again to be very clear...

God never asks us to do things we cant do.
if God did, or if your god does that to you, then you worship the Devil.

For Satan loves to tempt man into attempting to do things he knows full well we cant do.

But when God tells us to do something (Like the Commandments) is all based on the fact that God knows we are capable of doing what He asks...(see John 8:51 )

[alanmolstad]

The Big Question some people about about this debate is "Does man have Free Will or not?"

The answer I came to after looking at all the arguments is that "Yes, man has Free Will"

But the trick is, is that our free Will works within the over-all sovereignty of the Lord.

In other words, God's plans for you do not fail because of your Free Will.
This only makes sense because after all, who gave you Free Will in the first place?.....

God did...

Your Free will allows you to return the love God has for his creation.

Rocks cant love.
Trees cant love.
air and water cant love...

without our Free Will all we would have is instinctive programing.
We would be unable to answer the calling of God on our hearts....we would be unable to love.

We would be without sin....that's true...
But we would be little more than algae as far as being able to respond to God and love Him.

But we can love and this makes us so very special to the Lord.
And it is only our free will that allows us to Love God.

[alanmolstad]

Now for other people, the biggest problem they face is understanding how man can in fact have Free will yet God be sovereign?

This was also a question asked of me back in the day when I was in bible school and we had to study the Calvinist/Arminian debate and give a report of my conclusions.

At the time I saw how both sides of the debate had some merit, yet both sides also had a blindness too when they looked and did not see the merit of the other side.

As I searched for a way to help the people who don't believe man has Free Will to understand how we do, and how it yet is able to work within the rule of God, I came up with the example of the people on a ship at sea.

THE SHIP EXAMPLE:
The p***engers on-board a ship at sea have the complete freedom to do more or less whatever they want to do in their cabins.
They can sit up late and read if they want to.
They can take a shower if they want to.
They can get dressed up nice, or just sit in their PJ's and watch TV.

Its up to them to decide what they will do.

and yet the Captain is always in charge of everything that goes on on-board his ship.

Nothing the p***engers do in their rooms has the slightest difference to the authority of the Captain to command his ship.

The fact that the Captain allows the p***engers to do whatever they feel like in their cabins is not a threat to the authority of the Captain has to command his ship to go where he alone directs.

IN LIKE MANNER...
I have free will under the sovereignty of God.

When I get up in the morning I can put my left foot down on the floor first, or my right foot down first.
I have the freedom to decide this for myself.
Free Will allows for me to make this decision for myself.

No one forces me to put on foot down on the floor before the other.
I don't have to pray about the matter.
I don't have to consider "What does the bible say?" about what foot to put down first....

I can just put whatever foot I want down onto the floor first,

The fact that I have the needed free will to allow me to make this decision on my own does not mean "God has lost control!"

Its not a question of being "Either God is in control or man is" as some who argue against human free Will would have us believe.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God never asks us to do things we cant do.
if God did, or if your god does that to you, then you worship the Devil.

Alan this would mean that you are able to keep all the commandments perfectly. Is that what you mean?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan this would mean that you are able to keep all the commandments perfectly. Is that what you mean?

Let me say this again to be very clear...

God never asks us to do things we cant do.
if God did, or if your god does that to you, then you worship the Devil.

For Satan loves to tempt man into attempting to do things he knows full well we cant do.

But when God tells us to do something (Like the Commandments) is all based on the fact that God knows we are capable of doing what He asks...(see John 8:51

[alanmolstad]

Insanity Is Doing The Same Thing The Same Way And Expecting A Different Outcome....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Insanity Is Doing The Same Thing The Same Way And Expecting A Different Outcome....

Or giving me the same wrong answer.

[alanmolstad]

god never asks us to do things we cant do...

therefore if we fail at doing something the cause of our failure is not that the thing was too hard, ,,,or to heavy.,,,

I did not kill anyone today...I kept that commandment all day long.
But does this fact mean Im going to keep it tomorrow?....nope.

Being able to keep the law does not mean we are likely to keep it.

Following all the word of God on Monday does not help on Tuesday.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

god never asks us to do things we cant do...

So can you keep the law perfectly or not? This is not meant to be a difficult question Alan.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So can you keep the law perfectly or not? This is not meant to be a difficult question Alan.

refer to post #85 in the future when thinking about asking that question in the future....thanks

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God never asks us to do things we cant do.
if God did, or if your god does that to you, then you worship the Devil.

Alan, you can't keep the commandments perfectly. What does that tell you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So the FINAL ANSWER IS = God would NEVER ask me to do anything that i cant do.

False. Nobody except Christ can keep all of the commandments.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

False. Nobody except Christ can keep all of the commandments.

and that is why all my children go to Sunday school to learn about the "10 Suggestions"...


ha,ha, ha...

I dont think so Billy.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and that is why all my children go to Sunday school to learn about the "10 Suggestions"...


ha,ha, ha...

I dont think so Billy.

I know so Alan. Your belief that a man can obey the commandments perfectly and live a life just like Christ is absolutely false. The only person that has done this is Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know so Alan. Your belief that a man can obey the commandments perfectly and live a life just like Christ is absolutely false. The only person that has done this is Christ.

Of the 10 Commandments, what number is the one that God told us clearly that man was not expected to keep but was just God's little suggestion and He was never all that serious about the issue?...LOL

Here is a question for you to chew on.
According to JOHN 14:15 what is the sign you love Christ?