Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

[Radix]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

I guess you are sarcastically challenged. Your demands are ridiculous and your expectations are unbelievable. Your claim to victory when you have yet to present your claims or questions before the world just in this little pond in a bywater of the internet shows what a fantastically large and damaged ego you have.

The fact that you are banned from the very sites that could provde an answer shows that you cannot play nice with those who disagree with you.

Marvin

Thank you Marvin for this laugh. If there are actual answers, it does not matter what site you go too. Of course, if your only reality is in a cult, then maybe that is how you see it. But as I said, thank you for the laugh.

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Radix

Thank you Marvin for this laugh. If there are actual answers, it does not matter what site you go too. Of course, if your only reality is in a cult, then maybe that is how you see it. But as I said, thank you for the laugh.

Yep....that was a good laugh except for the part where he was attacking you (and his entire reply was more or less attacking you) and saying nothing to defend Mormonism.

Well no one to date has been able to defend Mormonism; it is a hopeless task and obviously they know it, so they do all kinds of crazy stuff to try and cover up for that fact, but it doesn't work here, so I wonder why they keep trying such foolish tactics instead of paying attention to what us Holy Christians have to say so they can get right with God.

So many souls with the opportunity to get off the Highway to Hell and onto the path of righteousness, but they sneer and hiss at it and attack us instead.

Sure makes me wonder just what has become of their brains when they refuse to hear/consider the Truth when it is presented to them.

Andy

[jdjhere]

Russianwolfe- where do these "gods" show up in any "chaldean" archelogical finds then?

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

So where do we find these names:


Seems that you have a major problem here. This is the first chapter of Abraham and the only time Egypt is mentioned in this chapter is at the end when Abraham reviews the government of Egypt. The priest that attempts to kill Abraham is Chaldean not Egyptian.

Seems you and BrianH got it wrong. These are not Egyptian gods.

Marvin

Oh brother... You poor guy. Okay, lets get this straight, FIRST of all, this is an EGYPTIAN document, NOT a Chaldean document.

SECONDLY, it was YOUR so-called "prophet" who identified it as an "Egyptian" document (after someone TOLD him that is what it was, of course). So YOU are the one with the problem here, because YOU are contradicting your own "prophet".

THIRDLY, the entire document has been indisputably identified as an EGYPTIAN document by every single qualified Egyptologist who has ever commented on it, including all BOTH Mormon Egyptologists. Furthermore it has been specifically identified a pagan "breathing permit" relating directly from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Egyptian mythology and religion where these Egyptian deities are clearly and indisputably named as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”.

FOURTHLY, it cannot even possibly have been a Chaldean document as you just claimed, since there was no such thing as the Chaldee language in Abraham's day! You obviously do not have any idea what you are talking about and are clearly in a state of total desperation and just making up excuses as fast as you an imagine them.

Finally, it is clear that you cannot even begin to provide any reasons to think that these Egyptian deities (as identified by Smith) were REALLY Elhinah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash. Nor are there any such Egyptian deities as these. And more to the point, you yourself know that you cannot even hope to show that they were Chaldean deities either.

Your're busted, Marvin. That you have been reduced to such fantasies as you have just demonstrated to try to defend this obvious hoax only demonstrates just how desperate and vacuous your position really is.

-BH

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[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Oh brother... You poor guy. Okay, lets get this straight, FIRST of all, this is an EGYPTIAN document, NOT a Chaldean document.

Yes, the document is Egyptian. But I am talking about the Book of Abraham where the names you refer to comes from. And this book tells the story of Abraham. And where does the story of Abraham start?

Genesis 11: 27 ¶Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.

28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.

29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor’s wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.

Even the Bible agrees with me, the story of Abraham starts in Ur of the Chaldees.

And the Book of Abraham chapters are summarized below

Chapter Headings or Summaries
Chapter 1
Abraham seeks the blessings of the patriarchal order—He is persecuted by false priests in Chaldea—Jehovah saves him—The origins and government of Egypt are reviewed.
Chapter 2
Abraham leaves Ur to go to Canaan—Jehovah appears to him at Haran—All gospel blessings are promised to his seed and through his seed to all—He goes to Canaan and on to Egypt.

It tells the story of Abraham which starts in Ur of the Chaldees.

Originally Posted by BrianH

SECONDLY, it was YOUR so-called "prophet" who identified it as an "Egyptian" document (after someone TOLD him that is what it was, of course). So YOU are the one with the problem here, because YOU are contradicting your own "prophet".

It is only your ig-norance that is being contradicted here. You made the false claim that the gods mentioned are Egyptian gods. But examining the document that the names come from reveals that even the document itself identifies that place where Abraham is at the beginning is Chaldea or Chaldees. And the false priest is identified as being from Chaldea.

Originally Posted by BrianH

THIRDLY, the entire document has been indisputably identified as an EGYPTIAN document by every single qualified Egyptologist who has ever commented on it, including all BOTH Mormon Egyptologists. Furthermore it has been specifically identified a pagan "breathing permit" relating directly from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Egyptian mythology and religion where these Egyptian deities are clearly and indisputably named as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”.

But we aren't talking about that document. You are suppose to be talking about the Book of Abraham because that is where the names come from. The Book of Breathing facsimile is not the Book of Abraham. That has been the Church's stance ever since the document was returned to the Church in the early sixties.

Originally Posted by BrianH

FOURTHLY, it cannot even possibly have been a Chaldean document as you just claimed, since there was no such thing as the Chaldee language in Abraham's day!

And since Abraham is telling his story, what does the language or lack thereof have to do with the story that Abraham tells?

Originally Posted by BrianH

You obviously do not have any idea what you are talking about and are clearly in a state of total desperation and just making up excuses as fast as you an imagine them.

Another false claim.

Originally Posted by BrianH

Finally, it is clear that you cannot even begin to provide any reasons to think that these Egyptian deities (as identified by Smith) were REALLY Elhinah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash. Nor are there any such Egyptian deities as these. And more to the point, you yourself know that you cannot even hope to show that they were Chaldean deities either.

When the Book of Abraham clearly identifies them as being Chaldean, it is no wonder that they cannot be identified as Egyptian.

Originally Posted by BrianH

Your're busted, Marvin. That you have been reduced to such fantasies as you have just demonstrated to try to defend this obvious hoax only demonstrates just how desperate and vacuous your position really is.

The only person busted here is you. You made a claim without examining all the evidence and now you have egg on your face. Even Joseph Smith identifies the facsimile as telling the story of Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees where, as the Book of Abraham relates, the false priests attempt to sacrifice him to the gods that you say are not Egyptian Gods. Of course not, this doesn't take place in Egypt. Why would there be Egyptian Gods in Chaldea?

Another false claim and false ***ertion by BrianH. Creating strawman arguments is not a worthy occupation by a Christian.

Once again, I have to thank Brianh for NOTHING.

Marvin

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Yes, the document is Egyptian. But I am talking about the Book of Abraham where the names you refer to comes from. And this book tells the story of Abraham. And where does the story of Abraham start?

In "Chaldea", WHICH NAME DID NOT EXIST at the time of Abraham. Obviously Smith did not know that, or else he would not have put that name into Abraham's pen. Furthermore, the idols themselves are NOT Chaldean, but EGYPTIAN, and there is no evidence of any mention of "Elkinah", "Libnah", "Mahmackrah" or "Korash" in the Chaldean language or mythology, just as they do not exist in Egyptian. They are clearly nothing more than the products of Smith's imagination.

Even the Bible agrees with me, the story of Abraham starts in Ur of the Chaldees.

ugh... Okay, pay attention. The story of Abraham took place BEOFRE there ever was a "Chaldea". That term did not appear until AFTER Abraham was long dead, and thus Smith's attribution of the term to Abraham, is just another manifestation of his total ignoran ce of the history of the region. Smith saw the term in the Bible and thought it must have existed in Abraham's day. But ...Genesis was not written in Abraham's day, Marvin. It was written by MOSES in Moses' day, over 400 years LATER, when there was a land known as "Chaldea" and a language known as "Chaldee". The appearance of the term in the BoA is a total anachronism, as are the appearances of several other terms.

And the Book of Abraham chapters are summarized below

It tells the story of Abraham which starts in Ur of the Chaldees.

...Which was not known by that name in Abraham's day. Therefore what you have is a FIRST CENTURY AD Egyptian document, putting terms from 2,000 BC into the mouth of Abraham who lived 400 years before those terms even existed. Are you at least beginning to see the problem here?

It is only your ig-norance that is being contradicted here. You made the false claim that the gods mentioned are Egyptian gods. But examining the document that the names come from reveals that even the document itself identifies that place where Abraham is at the beginning is Chaldea or Chaldees. And the false priest is identified as being from Chaldea.

You have accused me of making a false claim. I challenge you to back that up by doing more than just puking up a programmed emotional response. I challenge you to actually SHOW US that this universally recognized EGYPTIAN document, (dating to the 1st C. AD) clearly portraying indisputable EGYPTIAN gods, well documented throughout EGYPTIAN literature, religion and mythology is ACTUALLY all about Chaldean deities (that ALSO have never been show to exist). Until you do, it will remain self-evident that it is YOU who is absolutely and totally ignoran t here.

And again, the land of "Chaldea" did not exist in Abraham's day - or actually was not known by that name in his day. Nor did the "Chaldee" language exist. Those are terms that developed long after Abraham was DEAD tracing to hundreds of years LATER. It is impossible for Abraham to have written about a people and a language that did not exist. Why can you not deal with such a simple FACT? Its because you know that this whole issue totally and completely DEBUNKS your entire religion.

But we aren't talking about that document. You are suppose to be talking about the Book of Abraham because that is where the names come from. The Book of Breathing facsimile is not the Book of Abraham. That has been the Church's stance ever since the document was returned to the Church in the early sixties.

We are talking about the very papyrus from which the facsimiles in your BOA were clearly copied. It is THAT document that we are talking about here. YOU had better start paying attention. If you ever expect to begin to develop some credibility here you had betterlearn how to identify the at least the document in question!!

And since Abraham is telling his story, what does the language or lack thereof have to do with the story that Abraham tells?

Because that language did not exist in Abraham's day!!

Another false claim.

The truth of my claim is evident in the FACT that you cannot even begin to support your claims. All you can do, apparently, is whimper out stoopid, empty accusations like this one. Keep running, Marvin. Its what you Mormons do best.

When the Book of Abraham clearly identifies them as being Chaldean, it is no wonder that they cannot be identified as Egyptian.

Again the problems you are avoiding are these:

1.) There was no such thing as "Chaldean" in Abrham's day.
2.) The idols we are talking about have been indisputably identified as the well-known, thoroughly-documented EGYPTIAN mythical deities known as "“Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”. They appear all over Egyptian myth and are routinely observed in other "Breathing Permits" just as they appear in THIS one.

I refer you to THIS published article by LDS Egyptologist, Stephen Thompson. Read it and weep.

Here is a little taste of the doom of your religion:

The first such term, Chaldea, occurs in Abraham 1:1, and subsequently verses 8, 13, 20, 23, 29-30, and 2:4. The Chaldeans (Hebrew kasdim) were a people who spoke a West-Semitic language similar to Aramaic and who appeared in the ninth century B.C. in the land south of Babylonia, and appear to have migrated from Syria. Westermann has noted that the city of Ur could be qualified as "of the Chaldees" only from the tenth to the sixth centuries, in any case, not before the first millennium.

The second anachronistic word we encounter in the text is Pharaoh. In Abraham 1:6 we find "Pharaoh, king of Egypt." In Abraham 1:20 we are told that Pharaoh "signifies king by royal blood." There is one p***age in which the term is treated as a name, rather than as a ***le. In Abraham 1:25 we read "the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham."

It goes on to detail many other such anachronistic terms and ideas in your so-called "Book of Abraham", which your prophet is said to have "miraculously" translated from a universally recognized EGYPTIAN document.

...Why would there be Egyptian Gods in Chaldea?

As usual, you have it backwards. The correct question is, why would there be 1st century Egyptian deities mentioned in a 2,400BC Chaldean document?

Another false claim and false ***ertion by BrianH. Creating strawman arguments is not a worthy occupation by a Christian.

What is obvious to anyone who can read is that there is nothing false about it. Until you can answer my question above, it is evident that you (and your whole religion) are pretending to hide your inability to answer the original question of this thread by this utterly transparent evasion. Had you enough sense you would be embarr***ed by your own obvious total and complete ignoranc e of the fundamental FACTS here that so totally destroy your whole argument.

Once again, I have to thank Brianh for NOTHING.

Marvin

Just keep running, Marvin.

Just keep running. Maybe the day will come when your personal incapacity to deal with the facts will become as obvoius to YOU as they are to anyone who can at least read English, and at most, knows the basic facts of history that so clearly debunk your empty fantasies.

-BH

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[BrianH]

Over 1,860 hits and STILL not even ONE attempt by any Mormon to show that the God's known as, “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” ever even existed anywhere in Egyptian lore, let alone that the the mythical “sons of Horus” known as “Qebehseneuf” (fig. #5 on the papyrus and duplicated in Facsimile #1), “Duamutef” (fig. #6), “Hapy” (fig. #7) and “Imsety” (fig. #8), are misidentified by the universal consensus of all qualified Egyptologists, archaeologists, historians, anthropologists and other informed experts.

The latest attempt to cover the total inability of the entire Mormon world to produce any substantiation for this nonsense, is to accuse me of making false claims, while pretending that these are REALLY "Chaldean" gods, and NOT Egyptian deities.

Sadly for Mormons everywhere, this incoherent nonsense fails to deal with the original claims of the LDS "prophet" and his organization, and it ALSO proves just how totally FAKE the entire BoA really is, since there not only are no Chaldean deities known as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” (just as they do not exist in any Egyptian mythology or lore), but the document from which these names were allegedly translated is CLEARLY and indisputably EGYPTIAN and NOT "Chaldean". In fact there was no such language, nor were there even any people known as "Chaldeans" in Abraham's day. So once again it is pretty darn obvious that Joe Smith was just makin' stuff up.

But Mormons continue to actually believe this rubbish, even as they not only fail to even try to offer a defense of it, their attempted distractions only demonstrate additional ignor ance and confusion.

-BH

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[BrianH]

Woops ...sliped off the front page there for a second...

How about it Mormons? Let's see you provide a lick of evidence that there was EVER any mention of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash anywhere in Egyptian literature and lore. After all, these ARE extremely common idols, showing up all over Egyptian literature and artifcats. If your "prophet" was telling the truth about them, you SHOULD be able to show us that he AT LEAST named them correctly.

If he could not at least NAME them, why should anyone think he got any other part of his supposedly miraculous "translation" right?

Face it: your boy Smith was a total fraud. A faker. A phony. A FALSE prophet who is leading you directly to HELL.

-BH

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[BrianH]

Julie sez they have answered my challenges, such as this one. So this is a bump for Julie to SHOW where they ANSWERED the question here. SHOW US why we should think that the Egyptians ever knew of the supposed deities named by "prophet" Smith as Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash.

Still waiting on this one too...

[BrianH]

I guess Juile has discovered that, despite her claims to the contrary, she herself knows that neither she nor any other Mormon has ever answered this challenge to simply show us some reasons to think that Joseph Smith's supposed miraculous gift for translating languages he could not even read was anything more than a figment of his fevered imagination.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Perhaps the OP was too long and Mormons found all of those facts confusing. Okay. Here is the short version...

The LDS "prophet", Joe Smith, claimed to have translated a common, pagan "breathing permit" (as practiced in the Egyptian religion) into the so-called "Book of Abraham". This book is LDS "scripture" regarded as the very word of God by Mormons, supposedly written by Abraham himself.

In this translation there are many errors. In fact, Smith got exactly NOTHING right. Case in point: Smith identified the four idols depicted in one of the hieroglyphics as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.

I am asking that Mormons simply SHOW US that the supposed deities named by Smith in his allegedly miraculous translation were ever recognized by the Egyptians themselves, or anyone else for that matter. Please SHOW US some reason to think that there were EVER any idol/gods in Egyptian (or indeed in ANY) religion, mythology or lore named “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.

And since the Egyptians maintained a detailed mythology about these idols known to them as the sons of Horus (“Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”), why should we think that the Egyptians themselves did not know the names of their own gods?

-BH

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[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Perhaps the OP was too long and Mormons found all of those facts confusing. Okay. Here is the short version...

The LDS "prophet", Joe Smith, claimed to have translated a common, pagan "breathing permit" (as practiced in the Egyptian religion) into the so-called "Book of Abraham". This book is LDS "scripture" regarded as the very word of God by Mormons, supposedly written by Abraham himself.

No, this is your claim, not ours. You would like to think that we claim this because it makes your goal much easier to achieve.

Originally Posted by BrianH

In this translation there are many errors. In fact, Smith got exactly NOTHING right. Case in point: Smith identified the four idols depicted in one of the hieroglyphics as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.

As I have pointed out before, these are not Egyptian gods. These are the Gods from Abraham's childhood. Your attempt to make the Egyptian gods fails when one reads the text.

Originally Posted by BrianH

I am asking that Mormons simply SHOW US that the supposed deities named by Smith in his allegedly miraculous translation were ever recognized by the Egyptians themselves, or anyone else for that matter.

Make up your mind. Are you claiming that Joseph said they were Egyptian gods or not?

Originally Posted by BrianH

Please SHOW US some reason to think that there were EVER any idol/gods in Egyptian (or indeed in ANY) religion, mythology or lore named “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.


And since the Egyptians maintained a detailed mythology about these idols known to them as the sons of Horus (“Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”), why should we think that the Egyptians themselves did not know the names of their own gods?

-BH

.

When you are able, please read the text. These are not Egyptian gods.

Your premise is fatally flawed.

Marvin

[BrianH]

Quit stalling and show us some reason to think that your "prophet" correctly identified these idols, RW. Your stoopid parsing and quibbling games will only fool Mormons. It does not work on normal people.

-BH

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[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Quit stalling and show us some reason to think that your "prophet" correctly identified these idols, RW. Your stoopid parsing and quibbling games will only fool Mormons. It does not work on normal people.

-BH

.

What is that smell?

Attachment 31

Marvin

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

What is that smell?

Attachment 31

Marvin

Calling me names does not answer the question here, RW. In fact, your behavior proves that you yourself know you are here holding nothing but an empty bag of limp excuses. The FACT is, your so-called "prophet", alleging divine inspiration grossly mis-identified four thoroughly documented and widely recognized pagan Egyptian idols.

Can you show us any reason to think that Smith's "revelation from God" was correct?

Nope. You can't and you know it. So ...all you can do is call me names.

This is what happens to people who turn into Mormons, folks.

-BH

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[Russianwolfe]

The problem I have with giving you any kind of an answer is your facts are not facts. Read my previous posts and see where I disagree with what you have stated. How am I to answer factual lies?

Marvin

Originally Posted by BrianH

Calling me names does not answer the question here, RW. In fact, your behavior proves that you yourself know you are here holding nothing but an empty bag of limp excuses. The FACT is, your so-called "prophet", alleging divine inspiration grossly mis-identified four thoroughly documented and widely recognized pagan Egyptian idols.

Can you show us any reason to think that Smith's "revelation from God" was correct?

Nope. You can't and you know it. So ...all you can do is call me names.

This is what happens to people who turn into Mormons, folks.

-BH

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[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

The problem I have with giving you any kind of an answer is your facts are not facts.

That is a bluntly FALSE statement. The FACT is, the four canopic jars/idols that appear on all breathing permits are universally recognized as the “sons of Horus” - “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”. These are well-known Egyptian deities, whether YOU are aware of it or not. Furthermore, they are nowhere recognized as "Elkenah", "Libnah", "Mahmackrah" and "Korash". Just because YOU are totally igno rant of the facts of Egyptian mythology does not mean that they are not the FACTS.

Read my previous posts and see where I disagree with what you have stated. How am I to answer factual lies?

You can disagree all you like, RW. Your personal ignoran ce does not cons***ute a refutation of the FACTS. You have yet to do anything more than emit the usual and totally predictable emotional reaction where you SHOULD be offering some facts to substantiate your disagreement.

Secondly, you have just been reduced to calling me a liar. I will now challenge you (and we both know that you will flee like a scared little girl from this challenge) to substantiate that accusation. Do it now, or stand exposed yet again as just another Mormon who tries to hide his personal ignoranc e and incompetence behind empty accusations that he cannot support.

-BH

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[Russianwolfe]

Facts are only facts if they are true. What do you call facts that are not true?

Marvin

Originally Posted by BrianH

That is a bluntly FALSE statement. The FACT is, the four canopic jars/idols that appear on all breathing permits are universally recognized as the “sons of Horus” - “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”. These are well-known Egyptian deities, whether YOU are aware of it or not. Furthermore, they are nowhere recognized as "Elkenah", "Libnah", "Mahmackrah" and "Korash". Just because YOU are totally igno rant of the facts of Egyptian mythology does not mean that they are not the FACTS.


You can disagree all you like, RW. Your personal ignoran ce does not cons***ute a refutation of the FACTS. You have yet to do anything more than emit the usual and totally predictable emotional reaction where you SHOULD be offering some facts to substantiate your disagreement.

Secondly, you have just been reduced to calling me a liar. I will now challenge you (and we both know that you will flee like a scared little girl from this challenge) to substantiate that accusation. Do it now, or stand exposed yet again as just another Mormon who tries to hide his personal ignoranc e and incompetence behind empty accusations that he cannot support.

-BH

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[Radix]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Facts are only facts if they are true. What do you call facts that are not true?

Marvin

Marvin, are the facsimiles that Joseph translated Egyptian?

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Facts are only facts if they are true. What do you call facts that are not true?

Marvin

The FACT is, the canopic jars depicted on ALL breathing permits are universally recognized by all qualified archaeologists, historians, linguists, antequarians, and Egyptologists (including BOTH Mormon Egyptologists) as the Sons of Horus. There are exactly NO exceptions to this universal consensus even among those who are only minimally familiar with Egyptian lore (...which obviously excludes YOU).

This means that the FACT is, your so-called "prophet" was a liar and you are defending his proven LIES.

Go ahead and prove me wrong, RW. But you will need to bring something other than your childish, whimpering accusations to do so. You will need to find at least ONE qualified Egyptologist who will identify these EGYPTIAN icons using the names your so-called "prophet" used.

Good luck with that.

LOL!!!!!!!

-BH

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[BrianH]

Still waiting...

When are we going to see some Mormon substantiate Smith's correction to the universal consensus of all Egyptological scholarship with regard to the identification of the pagan idols depicted in Egyptian mythology?

Never???

I guess so. The closest thing we have seen is RussianWolf trying to pretend that they were not Egyptian at all. Given the indisputable FACT that they have been positively and universally recognized as Egyptian deities on ALL "breathing permits" AND throughout all relevant Egyptian texts and mythology, that is one of the lamest excuses ever attempted by a Mormon.

But that is not even close to an actual answer to the challenge posted in the OP.

Given the total lack of any defense for Smith's "revelation from God", Mormons have simply once again defaulted on their obligation to support the foundational claims of their whole religion.

So what else is new?

-BH

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[BrianH]

Still waiting...

When are we going to see some Mormon substantiate Smith's correction to the universal consensus of all Egyptological scholarship with regard to the identification of these pagan idols depicted in Egyptian mythology?

The closest thing we have seen is RussianWolf trying to pretend that they were not Egyptian at all. Given the indisputable FACT that they have been positively and universally recognized as Egyptian deities on ALL "breathing permits" AND throughout all relevant Egyptian texts and mythology, that is one of the lamest excuses ever attempted by a Mormon.

But that is not even close to an actual answer to the challenge posted in the OP.

Given the total lack of any defense for Smith's "revelation from God", Mormons have simply once again defaulted on their obligation to support the foundational claims of their whole religion.

The world is left to just wait for Mormons to come up with yet another embarr***ingly lame excuse or to let their silence prove that they themselves have no reason to believe what the LDS organization has told them to "think".

-BH

.

[Sbryson]

Hey BH,

I stumbled onto this post and found this thread somewhat amusing. It seems that people on this forum are somewhat incapable of having an intelligent conversation without childish name calling and attacks:

"I refer you to THIS published article by LDS Egyptologist, Stephen Thompson. Read it and weep."

"Go ahead and prove me wrong, RW. But you will need to bring something other than your childish, whimpering accusations to do so."

I don't know about you, but phrases like "read it and weep" and calling people "stoopid" with "empty fantasies" seems to be on the childish and unkind side. Didn't Jesus preach love, openness, understanding and acceptance? Maybe I'm naive, but shouldn't we approach such questions (as the one you brought up, Marvin, which is a very valid question that many member and non-members alike have) with a spirit of openness, kindness and love?

Calling people "trolls" doesn't accomplish much either, Russianwolfe.

BH, there are many valid answers to your questions. However, even if we (members of the LDS faith) prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith was in fact correct with his translation of the Facsimile #1, I doubt you would pack up your proverbial bags and come to the LDS church and be baptized, am I right?

I sense a great deal of anger, frustration and downright cruelty towards the LDS church, and I wonder why that is. I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm hoping you will accept that not every Mormon is a "stooped", ********, lying, blind cult following robot. Many of us do accept there are unanswered questions, but because of the overwhelming amount of facts that do prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, prophesies about the Civil War, the growth of the Church, his teachings, not to mention the intense spiritual witnesses many have received, and continue to receive of the truth of these things) we have faith that they will be sorted out. Does that make us blind cult followers? I don't think so. The whole concept of a God, Jesus Christ, coming from heaven to sacrifice himself for our sins is pretty outlandish and "cultish" if you think about it from an outsiders view. In that sense I guess we are all in some type of cult or another.

Nevertheless, I have found a great deal about the Book of Abraham that you might find as an interesting read. Keep in mind that this will not answer all of your questions, but I'm hoping this can address some of the questions you proposed in the original post.

These are not official statements of the Church, but still provide some valid points.

http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/onthe.htm
This documents claims that although the names are not Egyptian, they do contain Egyptian roots, mixed with Syro-Canaanitish elements which makes sense because Abraham is pointing out Ancient Egyptian customs to a non-Egyptian audience.

Here is a small quote from the article, addressing the name of one of the Gods: Mahmackrah


"What we hear is Mah-mackr-ah. The mackr element is very important in
Canaanite names such as Mhr-Anat which means "champion, or upholder of the
goddess Anat." Ramses II called himself Mahr-B'l meaning upholder of Ba'al,
the Canaanite god. Mahr-Rah would be the champion or upholder of Rah, the
Egyptian equivilant of Ba'al.

We need to note that the h in the root must have a heavy sound in order not
to be swallowed up by the r which follows. The shift between the k and the h
can be seen in our own name Mi-cha-el which the Jews wrote Mi-ka-el.
Incidentally, the form of the name rather neatly parallels our Ma-mackr-rah.
Mi-cha-el, like Mi-ca-iah (1 Kings 22). (Nibley, Sept. 1969).

The Canaanite name Maq'arah means a burning incidentally. Interesting that
in the Abraham legends one of them indicates that Abraham's sacrifice was to
be burned in the fire. The Jewish Encyclopedia notes this. The idolatrous
god of Beth-shan is called "Mkl'a", the great god. The first element in his
name, Mkl is Canaanite, while the ending 'a is Egyptian. Another
interesting name form is the Egyptian Mai-m-hqa meaning the lion is ruler.
Our canopic name would then be Mai-m-akr-ah which would mean The lion Akr is
great! Akr being the earth god as lion, and Abraham is on the LION couch to
be sure. The point is, this name is not just meaningless gibberish whatever."

For a delusional cult leader, Joseph really got a lot of things really close here. Maybe he just guessed? Sure, that's a possibility, but pretty unlikely.

Also, Joseph was spot on when he translated the "pillars of heaven" from the support beams on the bottom of the facsimile, and also the correct translation of item 12 - the heaven's, or firmament. It is well known now that Egyptians conceived heaven as a heavenly ocean (Erik Hornung, "Himmelsvorstellungen," Lexikon der Ägyptologie, 2:1216.) You didn't seem to bring any of that up in your original argument. Maybe you overlooked it. In any case, there appears to be evidence that supports Joseph Smith's claim to have translated this Facsimile with surprising accuracy, considering that none of this information was available when Joseph Smith was alive.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

But there are still multiple facets of the facsimile you haven't even covered! What about the fact that most "experts" believe that this is a funeral scene? Well this poses a huge problem, because:

1) The figure in the Facsimile has not only his feet lifted up, but his hands raised in the air (keep in mind that Joseph filled this in because that portion of the papyrus was missing). This is a-typical to other funeral scenes found. In fact, most funeral scenes depict a figure in a sarcophagi, not with his feet in the air and both hands raised (some have been found showing one hand raised, but none with both hands being raised depicting a funeral scene)

Even most interesting is that the scene which Joseph filled in is perfectly consistent with other hieroglyphics depicting "praying", "praise" or "supplication" (http://www.ancient-egypt-priests.com...lt-english.htm) , which is exactly what Abraham would be doing in that situation. Flip the Abraham character 90 degrees and it fits that profile perfectly.

These symbols can also be found in this book: Sir Alan Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, Being An Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs, 3rd Ed. (Oxford University Press, London: 1966), p. 32, paragraph 24 - which shows this same thing. The symbol for "death" and "bury" is consistent with other burial scenes.

Again, dumb luck that Joseph Smith just happened to get this right? If he were making all this up, it seems pretty unlikely that he would get so many things right. And all this before much of this information was available to him.

[mormongirl]

some other links in favor of the Book of Abraham:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abr..._for_antiquity

http://publications.maxwellins***ute...4OnElkenah.pdf

[Radix]

Is there a single Egyptologist using his/her training that will validate Joseph Smith really had any clue what so ever about translating Egyptian?

Well???

Didn't think so. You provide a lot of desperation with no real teeth.