An Opportunity for Russ

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Russ,

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

Here's your opportunity.

Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

Thanks.

[Russ]

On my website, right side, blue navigation bar: statement of faith.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Russ

On my website, right side, blue navigation bar: statement of faith.

Russ,

Here was the part of the OP which you missed: (I bolded and changed the color for a portion of the OP)

Russ,

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

Here's your opportunity.

Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

Thanks.

SbT

[Russ]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

Russ,

Here was the part of the OP which you missed: (I bolded and changed the color for a portion of the OP)



SbT

The statements are there. They say what they say.

The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russ

The statements are there. They say what they say.

The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.

This same statement is just copied from someone else's work, Russ.

Isn't there a personal aspect to your faith?

[SavedbyTruth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Russ

The statements are there. They say what they say.

Russ,


So, you have a Statement of Faith. It says nothing about how or why you came to agree with these things. There is no context indicating supportive scripture. There is nothing about what the knowledge of your faith means to you. A list is devoid of emotion and conviction.

The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

Not really. But it explains a lot about you not responding with your own words when asked questions.

If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.

Off topic.

Everybody knows (even you) pointing to a list of what your beliefs are is NOT the same thing as active participation using your own words in a discussion.

SbT

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russ

The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

Where does the Bible say: "God is a Trinity"

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Where does the Bible say: "God is a Trinity"

My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

Questions for you figster:

Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

Yes.

There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister!

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

Questions for you figster:

Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

Yes.

There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister!

JD, I know you can speak for what you believe. I am inviting Russ to do the same. I am inviting him to put forth some person reason for his faith and beliefs. Why he believes what he does, and how he came to accept it. His "conversion story".

I didn't necessarily want to drive him off, or cause him to look to others to speak for himself.

p.s. And your summary of what the Bible says, does nothing to exclude the LDS interpretation of the Godhead, and these 3 divine persons being united in purpose and of one heart and mind.

[Father_JD]

p.s. And your summary of what the Bible says, does nothing to exclude the LDS interpretation of the Godhead, and these 3 divine persons being united in purpose and of one heart and mind.

In reality, it does NOT because you've RE-DEFINED the terms: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit...the meaning of ONE GOD which has been degenerated by Mormonism to mean only "one in purpose".

To be ONE GOD necessarily entails oneness in BEING...way beyond "purpose". The Jews knew only too well what Jesus meant in John 10:30.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

Questions for you figster:

Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

Yes.

There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister!

It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

Your response is incorrect.

SbT

[Russ]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

Your response is incorrect.

SbT

His response isn't incorrect.

Our Bibles state that Jesus received worship. He did not admonish them for doing so.

Actually, the LDS ***ertion that the early church fathers developed the Trinity is incorrect. It's there in John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9

P.S. The LDS ***ertion that Jesus is "a" god or "another god" is fallacious.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Russ

His response isn't incorrect.

Our Bibles state that Jesus received worship. He did not admonish them for doing so.

Actually, the LDS ***ertion that the early church fathers developed the Trinity is incorrect. It's there in John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9

P.S. The LDS ***ertion that Jesus is "a" god or "another god" is fallacious.

Hi Russ,

If I had seen Jesus in the flesh, I would have worshiped Him as well, regardless of His teaching me to pray to His Father (our Heavenly Father). But my prayers would still have been directed to HF. As long as Jesus was walking the earth, I would have worshiped Him as my Savior and Redeemer. The two are separate individuals.

Now that He has returned to HF, I follow His teachings....which is also a way to worship Him. My personal relationship with Jesus grows as I follow His teachings and strive to be more like Him. My love for Him also deepens. I do not pray to Him; however, I DO pray to HF in the name of Jesus Christ.

History is very clear about how the Trinity came to be the official interpretation of the godhead. The LDS Church did not make that up. Even so, 1700 years later, the debate continues about the function of the Trinity. The LDS Church did not make that up either. The fact the main stream Christian church cannot reconcile the problems ***ociated with the Trinity has NOTHING to do with the LDS Church. Trying to distract someone from the real problems with the Trinity merely indicates those problems really do exist.

The Bible is very clear there are three separate beings in the Godhead.

Thank you Russ,

SbT

[Russ]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

Hi Russ,

If I had seen Jesus in the flesh, I would have worshiped Him as well, regardless of His teaching me to pray to His Father (our Heavenly Father).

Would you? Would you really? Would you bow down and worship Jesus as the creator of the universe? Would you confess that he is God, the very one and only God made manifest in the flesh?

Let's examine John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9 together.

Your thoughts...

P.S. Jesus was prayed to. Do you know the p***age? Let's go there.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Russ

Would you? Would you really? Would you bow down and worship Jesus as the creator of the universe? Would you confess that he is God, the very one and only God made manifest in the flesh?

Let's examine John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9 together.

Your thoughts...

P.S. Jesus was prayed to. Do you know the p***age? Let's go there.

Hi Russ,

I absolutely would worship Him and confess He is our Lord, our Savior and Redeemer, the only Begotten Son of the Father. I would not be able to stand up in His presence. His glory would overcome me.

I have very often examined the scriptures you referenced, as well as all of the scriptures.

I am convinced there are 3 separate beings. I was convinced while I was a Lutheran.

SbT

[Russ]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

Hi Russ,

I absolutely would worship Him and confess He is our Lord, our Savior and Redeemer, the only Begotten Son of the Father. I would not be able to stand up in His presence. His glory would overcome me.

I have very often examined the scriptures you referenced, as well as all of the scriptures.

I am convinced there are 3 separate beings. I was convinced while I was a Lutheran.

SbT

I asked if you would worship Jesus as God made manifest in the flesh; the very one and only God of the universe.

Being Mormon, you cannot. Your response reveals such.

Furthermore, you're dodging genuine LDS theology.

If you were to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth regarding LDS theology, you would acknowledge publicly and inform your readers that "Begotten Son of the Father" means God and Mother God "procreated" Jesus, Satan and all of us as spirit-children.

Same old same old from LDS defenders. Just a little bit of the LDS story. (sigh)

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Russ

I asked if you would worship Jesus as God made manifest in the flesh; the very one and only God of the universe.

Being Mormon, you cannot. Your response reveals such.

Furthermore, you're dodging genuine LDS theology.

If you were to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth regarding LDS theology, you would acknowledge publicly and inform your readers that "Begotten Son of the Father" means God and Mother God "procreated" Jesus, Satan and all of us as spirit-children.

Same old same old from LDS defenders. Just a little bit of the LDS story. (sigh)

Hi Russ,

I just had an epiphany. If the LDS would cite scriptures and the words of others ONLY and not also add their own personal words, you might be able to identify with their responses.

Somehow you are verbally challenged and refuse to see the LDS who respond to you actually have their own thoughts to share in addition to Biblical references. In fact, every LDS is more than happy to share their joy with others. And they are able to use their own words. I find great comfort in that.

Does your church not allow you to speak for yourself?

You are missing so much Russ. I hope your heart is softened some day.

SbT

[Russ]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

Does your church not allow you to speak for yourself?

Exactly!

I only type keystrokes approved by my pastor.

When it comes to driving a car, oy vey, it gets even worse. I can only drive in straight lines, and between the white lines at that. Any turns, left, right, or U, require approval too.

Last week was a real bummer.

I mean, a REAL bummer. You wouldn't believe the predicament.

I had to drive to the store to buy milk. I did the right thing. I took my cell phone with me to make sure that I would have voice contact with the Mother Ship.

I thought for sure the pastor would be in his office to guide me.

I headed out onto the main drag towards the store. I called the pastor at star base Mother Ship to receive authorization to turn left.

The pastor was on vacation!

Can you believe it?!!!

I pulled over to the side of the road, locked the car doors to stay safe, and called for a tow truck.

That was a really, really bad day.

The thinking has been done.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Russ

Exactly!

I only type keystrokes approved by my pastor.

When it comes to driving a car, oy vey, it gets even worse. I can only drive in straight lines, and between the white lines at that. Any turns, left, right, or U, require approval too.

Last week was a real bummer.

I mean, a REAL bummer. You wouldn't believe the predicament.

I had to drive to the store to buy milk. I did the right thing. I took my cell phone with me to make sure that I would have voice contact with the Mother Ship.

I thought for sure the pastor would be in his office to guide me.

I headed out onto the main drag towards the store. I called the pastor at star base Mother Ship to receive authorization to turn left.

The pastor was on vacation!

Can you believe it?!!!

I pulled over to the side of the road, locked the car doors to stay safe, and called for a tow truck.

That was a really, really bad day.

The thinking has been done.

Wow Russ,

And you think I am lost.

SbT

[Jill]

General Reminder and Warning:

Please refer to other members of the board by their correct usernames. Anything else will be considered baiting and you will be warned.

Thank you!

[Jill]

Fig-bearing Thistle, you wrote, "Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it."

No one will "rip" anyone's testimony and their "sincere expression of faith to shreds"--LDS or Christian--it simply will not be tolerated.

And if someone tries it, I would like to know about it.

We may disagree theologically but the bottom line is we care about the souls of our brothers and sisters or none of us would be here talking, would we?

So, there will be no "ripping" of anyone's faith to shreds on this board. Why should that even be necessary? Logical, fair arguments based on historical and theological points are always the best choice. Once anger enters the picture people stop listening and resort to fighting--not a good scenario and one we hope to avoid here.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Jill

Fig-bearing Thistle, you wrote, "Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it."

No one will "rip" anyone's testimony and their "sincere expression of faith to shreds"--LDS or Christian--it simply will not be tolerated.

And if someone tries it, I would like to know about it.

We may disagree theologically but the bottom line is we care about the souls of our brothers and sisters or none of us would be here talking, would we?

So, there will be no "ripping" of anyone's faith to shreds on this board. Why should that even be necessary? Logical, fair arguments based on historical and theological points are always the best choice. Once anger enters the picture people stop listening and resort to fighting--not a good scenario and one we hope to avoid here.

Thanks, Jill. This is re-***uring. WM is a far better atmosphere than CARM.

[Father_JD]

The Bible is very clear there are three separate beings in the Godhead.

No, three distinctions...three "persons" but NOT SEPARATE BEINGS. That would be TRI-THEISM, so the Bible sez YOU'RE WRONG.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

Your response is incorrect.

SbT

SbT, have you taken note that I've explained by beliefs insofar that Jesus is God? The very God of the universe.

How can this carpenter's son be the very creator of all things?

Kinda whacks out the mind, don't it. It's like, wow.

Imagine a babe from Bethlehem being the one who spoke all things into existence, and then transcended into his own creation. It's like... wow.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

Your response is incorrect.

SbT

LOL. Well, just how is my response "incorrect"? Typically "Mormon"...empty ***ertions not backed by squat and founded on IGNORANCE of Christian history and the skewed twistings of LD$, Inc.

They KNEW what they believed. They had to codify WHAT they believed in response to Modalism and Arianism (of which Mormonism is merely a variant).