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Thread: An Opportunity for Russ

  1. #1
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Default An Opportunity for Russ

    Russ,

    I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

    Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

    Here's your opportunity.

    Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

    Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

    It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Fig-bearing Thistle; 01-13-2009 at 11:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Russ
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    Default Sounds good

    On my website, right side, blue navigation bar: statement of faith.

  3. #3
    SavedbyTruth
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    On my website, right side, blue navigation bar: statement of faith.
    Russ,

    Here was the part of the OP which you missed: (I bolded and changed the color for a portion of the OP)

    Russ,

    I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

    Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

    Here's your opportunity.

    Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

    Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

    It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

    Thanks.
    SbT

  4. #4
    Russ
    Guest

    Default Didn't miss a thing, bubaloo. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth View Post
    Russ,

    Here was the part of the OP which you missed: (I bolded and changed the color for a portion of the OP)



    SbT
    The statements are there. They say what they say.

    The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

    If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.

  5. #5
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    The statements are there. They say what they say.

    The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

    If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.
    This same statement is just copied from someone else's work, Russ.

    Isn't there a personal aspect to your faith?

  6. #6
    SavedbyTruth
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    Default

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    The statements are there. They say what they say.
    Russ,


    So, you have a Statement of Faith. It says nothing about how or why you came to agree with these things. There is no context indicating supportive scripture. There is nothing about what the knowledge of your faith means to you. A list is devoid of emotion and conviction.

    The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.
    Not really. But it explains a lot about you not responding with your own words when asked questions.

    If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.
    Off topic.

    Everybody knows (even you) pointing to a list of what your beliefs are is NOT the same thing as active participation using your own words in a discussion.

    SbT

  7. #7
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.
    Where does the Bible say: "God is a Trinity"

  8. #8
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Where does the Bible say: "God is a Trinity"
    My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

    Questions for you figster:

    Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

    Yes.

    There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister!

  9. #9
    Snow Patrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Russ,

    I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

    Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

    Here's your opportunity.

    Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

    Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

    It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

    Thanks.

    Fig,

    Don't you know that that isn't part of the Christian indoctrination? All they are trained/brainwashed to do is attack and tear down other people's faith and beliefs. I've asked over and over and over for the most perfect Bible believing Christian church out there so that I can investigate and compare their beliefs with mine. Not once have I EVER been told which is the most perfectly, in-line with the Bible, Christian church.

    If I were to leave the LDS faith I don't want to waste my time with some "Christian" church only to find out that it is considered heretical or cultish. I want to join up with THE absolute most correct church out there. Since no one has offered up what they believe is the "bestest" Christian church I'm left to think that maybe there isn't one. They are all just "so-so". I've even been told that I don't have to "hook" up with a church at all.

    I would also like to encourage Russ, or any other Christian out there, to teach me ALL there is about the gospel they believe in and the faith they have. Maybe they could also inform us which church is the most perfect Biblical Christian church out there.

    Thanks

  10. #10
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

    Questions for you figster:

    Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

    Yes.

    There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister!
    JD, I know you can speak for what you believe. I am inviting Russ to do the same. I am inviting him to put forth some person reason for his faith and beliefs. Why he believes what he does, and how he came to accept it. His "conversion story".

    I didn't necessarily want to drive him off, or cause him to look to others to speak for himself.

    p.s. And your summary of what the Bible says, does nothing to exclude the LDS interpretation of the Godhead, and these 3 divine persons being united in purpose and of one heart and mind.

  11. #11
    SavedbyTruth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

    Questions for you figster:

    Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

    Yes.

    Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

    Yes.

    There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister!
    It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

    Your response is incorrect.

    SbT

  12. #12
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    Fig,

    Don't you know that that isn't part of the Christian indoctrination? All they are trained/brainwashed to do is attack and tear down other people's faith and beliefs.
    Don't take it personally, please.

    "Pick up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints, see if it will stand the test." 2nd LDS president Brigham Young.

    That's an invitation by an alleged prophet of God to examine LDS theology and to make comparisons.

    The LDS religion states that Jesus is the brother of Satan. This cannot be the case. It's my heartfelt hope that you will come to recognize the reasons why. Our Bibles speak volumes about our Lord being God made manifest in the flesh, John 1:1, John 1:14, Col. 2:9.

    We will continue to make such comparisons and we will continue to build you up in Jesus Christ by asking you to examine your beliefs and by asking you to look at what the Bible says about our Lord.

    Brother of Satan?

    Impossible.

  13. #13
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth View Post
    It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

    Your response is incorrect.

    SbT
    His response isn't incorrect.

    Our Bibles state that Jesus received worship. He did not admonish them for doing so.

    Actually, the LDS ***ertion that the early church fathers developed the Trinity is incorrect. It's there in John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9

    P.S. The LDS ***ertion that Jesus is "a" god or "another god" is fallacious.
    Last edited by Russ; 01-14-2009 at 01:16 PM.

  14. #14
    Russ
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth View Post
    It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

    Your response is incorrect.

    SbT
    SbT, have you taken note that I've explained by beliefs insofar that Jesus is God? The very God of the universe.

    How can this carpenter's son be the very creator of all things?

    Kinda whacks out the mind, don't it. It's like, wow.

    Imagine a babe from Bethlehem being the one who spoke all things into existence, and then transcended into his own creation. It's like... wow.

  15. #15
    SavedbyTruth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    His response isn't incorrect.

    Our Bibles state that Jesus received worship. He did not admonish them for doing so.

    Actually, the LDS ***ertion that the early church fathers developed the Trinity is incorrect. It's there in John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9

    P.S. The LDS ***ertion that Jesus is "a" god or "another god" is fallacious.
    Hi Russ,

    If I had seen Jesus in the flesh, I would have worshiped Him as well, regardless of His teaching me to pray to His Father (our Heavenly Father). But my prayers would still have been directed to HF. As long as Jesus was walking the earth, I would have worshiped Him as my Savior and Redeemer. The two are separate individuals.

    Now that He has returned to HF, I follow His teachings....which is also a way to worship Him. My personal relationship with Jesus grows as I follow His teachings and strive to be more like Him. My love for Him also deepens. I do not pray to Him; however, I DO pray to HF in the name of Jesus Christ.

    History is very clear about how the Trinity came to be the official interpretation of the godhead. The LDS Church did not make that up. Even so, 1700 years later, the debate continues about the function of the Trinity. The LDS Church did not make that up either. The fact the main stream Christian church cannot reconcile the problems ***ociated with the Trinity has NOTHING to do with the LDS Church. Trying to distract someone from the real problems with the Trinity merely indicates those problems really do exist.

    The Bible is very clear there are three separate beings in the Godhead.

    Thank you Russ,

    SbT

  16. #16
    Russ
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth View Post
    Hi Russ,

    If I had seen Jesus in the flesh, I would have worshiped Him as well, regardless of His teaching me to pray to His Father (our Heavenly Father).
    Would you? Would you really? Would you bow down and worship Jesus as the creator of the universe? Would you confess that he is God, the very one and only God made manifest in the flesh?

    Let's examine John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9 together.

    Your thoughts...

    P.S. Jesus was prayed to. Do you know the p***age? Let's go there.

  17. #17
    Snow Patrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Don't take it personally, please.

    "Pick up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints, see if it will stand the test." 2nd LDS president Brigham Young.

    That's an invitation by an alleged prophet of God to examine LDS theology and to make comparisons.

    The LDS religion states that Jesus is the brother of Satan. This cannot be the case. It's my heartfelt hope that you will come to recognize the reasons why. Our Bibles speak volumes about our Lord being God made manifest in the flesh, John 1:1, John 1:14, Col. 2:9.

    We will continue to make such comparisons and we will continue to build you up in Jesus Christ by asking you to examine your beliefs and by asking you to look at what the Bible says about our Lord.

    Brother of Satan?

    Impossible.
    Well I guess I can chock this up to another refusal of a "Christian" to guide the LDS to the most correct Biblical Christian church. Does it really not exist? What are we supposedly comparing the LDS church's teachings to? Russ' interpretation of what the Bible says? Come on, there has to be some Christian Church out there that is 100% correct in every single doctrine of the gospel that Jesus brought. That is the only thing I want to compare the LDS beliefs to, not your interpretation or any other human's.

    So Russ, are you ready to compare?

  18. #18
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    Come on, there has to be some Christian Church out there that is 100% correct in every single doctrine of the gospel that Jesus brought.
    Yes, I was built and endowed by my Creator to compare. So were you built such way or you wouldn't be here.

    There is no church which is 100% perfect in doctrine as the churches are filled with less than 100% perfect people. Even within Mormonism there's a saying: "People aren't perfect, but the gospel is and the church is true." - or something along those lines.

    We do well to pay attention to what God's word says and then compare that to the claims of alleged prophets of God. When such prophets come along saying that Jesus is the brother of Satan we do well to ask questions and compare.

    My Bible informs me that it is an utter impossibility that Jesus is any relative of Satan.

    My Bible informs me that Jesus is God. John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9

  19. #19
    Russ
    Guest

    Default Jesus claimed to be God

    And they sought to stone him to death.

    Remember the p***age?

    If, however, Jesus had claimed to be the brother of Satan and the offspring of God and Mother God, few would have taken notice even as few take notice of such claim today.

    I want to compare the LDS claim that Jesus is the brother of Satan.

    What did you ask me? Are you ready?

  20. #20
    SavedbyTruth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Would you? Would you really? Would you bow down and worship Jesus as the creator of the universe? Would you confess that he is God, the very one and only God made manifest in the flesh?

    Let's examine John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9 together.

    Your thoughts...

    P.S. Jesus was prayed to. Do you know the p***age? Let's go there.
    Hi Russ,

    I absolutely would worship Him and confess He is our Lord, our Savior and Redeemer, the only Begotten Son of the Father. I would not be able to stand up in His presence. His glory would overcome me.

    I have very often examined the scriptures you referenced, as well as all of the scriptures.

    I am convinced there are 3 separate beings. I was convinced while I was a Lutheran.

    SbT

  21. #21
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    Well I guess I can chock this up to another refusal of a "Christian" to guide the LDS to the most correct Biblical Christian church. Does it really not exist? What are we supposedly comparing the LDS church's teachings to? Russ' interpretation of what the Bible says? Come on, there has to be some Christian Church out there that is 100% correct in every single doctrine of the gospel that Jesus brought. That is the only thing I want to compare the LDS beliefs to, not your interpretation or any other human's.

    So Russ, are you ready to compare?
    "If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through. If you are an atheist you do have to beleive that the main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one huge mistake. If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all these religions, even the *****est ones, contain at least some hint of the truth."

    C.S. Lewis
    Mere Christianity
    bk. ll, chap. 1,
    para. 1, p. 43.

    What is interesting with the other religions that are not aligned with the core of the orthodoxy is that you do not have to start from nothing.

    Trinity

  22. #22
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    There is no church which is 100% perfect in doctrine as the churches are filled with less than 100% perfect people.

    --Then pretend someone asks you which church is 99%, or 94%, perfect in doctrine. Can you name one of those for him, so he doesn't get stuck in one that is only, say, 17%? Where is the Master List of Churches, that names each church along with its % ranking? Wouldn't that be a good idea, to have such a list? You'd think a list like that would have been made long ago, like Consumer Reports, where they evaluate different brands of the same product--like a hammer, say--and rank it for quality. Is your church a "Best Buy" Russ? Why haven't the mainstream and Evangelical churches agreed to have such a list made?

  23. #23
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    --Then pretend someone asks you which church is 99%, or 94%, perfect in doctrine. Can you name one of those for him, so he doesn't get stuck in one that is only, say, 17%? Where is the Master List of Churches, that names each church along with its % ranking? Wouldn't that be a good idea, to have such a list? You'd think a list like that would have been made long ago, like Consumer Reports, where they evaluate different brands of the same product--like a hammer, say--and rank it for quality. Is your church a "Best Buy" Russ? Why haven't the mainstream and Evangelical churches agreed to have such a list made?
    Before establishing a list of churches with a %, we should mention on which criteria we could base this %.

    Trinity

  24. #24
    Russ
    Guest

    Default My church doesn't preach perfection.

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    --Then pretend someone asks you which church is 99%, or 94%, perfect in doctrine. Can you name one of those for him, so he doesn't get stuck in one that is only, say, 17%? Where is the Master List of Churches, that names each church along with its % ranking? Wouldn't that be a good idea, to have such a list? You'd think a list like that would have been made long ago, like Consumer Reports, where they evaluate different brands of the same product--like a hammer, say--and rank it for quality. Is your church a "Best Buy" Russ? Why haven't the mainstream and Evangelical churches agreed to have such a list made?
    While essentials of the Christian faith do exist, e.g. the Trinity, only one God, Jesus is that same God, faith through grace and not by a man's works; perfection of theology is not the goal. Perfection only exists in God.

    As regarding LDS theology, it denies Christian tenets and attempts to redefine Christian theology.

    Rather than Jesus being God in the flesh, LDSism would have us believe that Jesus was born of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

    Rather than eternal life being by grace through faith, LDSism would have us believe that eternal life can only be found in LDS ordinances.

    Rather than there being only one God who has always been God and who is dependent upon nothing for his existence, LDSism would have us believe that God once wasn't God but "became" God by obedience to LDS ordinances.

    Rather than single people receiving eternal life, LDSism would have us believe that only married Mormons can receive eternal life.

    Rather than those who call on Jesus' name through faith and belief receiving eternal life, LDSism would have us believe that only those who learn of secret handshakes and secret new names in LDS temples will receive eternal life.

    Jeff, the LDS religion is the polar opposite of all things Christian.

  25. #25
    Russ
    Guest

    Default You're dodging, SbT

    Quote Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth View Post
    Hi Russ,

    I absolutely would worship Him and confess He is our Lord, our Savior and Redeemer, the only Begotten Son of the Father. I would not be able to stand up in His presence. His glory would overcome me.

    I have very often examined the scriptures you referenced, as well as all of the scriptures.

    I am convinced there are 3 separate beings. I was convinced while I was a Lutheran.

    SbT
    I asked if you would worship Jesus as God made manifest in the flesh; the very one and only God of the universe.

    Being Mormon, you cannot. Your response reveals such.

    Furthermore, you're dodging genuine LDS theology.

    If you were to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth regarding LDS theology, you would acknowledge publicly and inform your readers that "Begotten Son of the Father" means God and Mother God "procreated" Jesus, Satan and all of us as spirit-children.

    Same old same old from LDS defenders. Just a little bit of the LDS story. (sigh)

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