An Opportunity for Russ

[Father_JD]

Quote:
Now, we need to look at your second point: You're suggesting that the truly born again will STOP sinning in an absolute way if I'm getting you're drift, right?

--I am not suggesting it, I am just quoting what the Bible says.

It's your application of the text which I'm questioning, jeff. Are you suggesting that anyone truly born again NEVER sins after regeneration?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

I'm hoping Russ can answer for himself.

Russ?

Can you answer for yourself? Do you believe your are already forgiven in advance for all present and future sins?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Russ?

Can you answer for yourself? Do you believe your are already forgiven in advance for all present and future sins?

The question really is:

Is one fully justified in Christ or NOT? You're suggesting that justification is an iffy thing, i.e. ya got it one day, and don't the next.

[nrajeff]

Maybe the question should be: What, exactly, gets justified?

a) The sins the person committed up to that point.

b) All the sins you will commit in the future.

c) Both a) and b).

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

The question really is:

Is one fully justified in Christ or NOT? You're suggesting that justification is an iffy thing, i.e. ya got it one day, and don't the next.

I was hoping Russ would take advantage of this opportunity and provide his own answer.

Thanks though. I liked Jeff's idea of justification. It seems more in keeping with the character of a Just God who will not be mocked.

[Pro-Truth]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Maybe the question should be: What, exactly, gets justified?

a) The sins the person committed up to that point.

b) All the sins you will commit in the future.

c) Both a) and b).

When a person becomes spiritually born again by Jesus Christ, their entire sinful nature is covered by His blood. Therefore, a born again believer's past, present, and future sins are forgiven.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Pro-Truth

Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me".

---Holman Christian Standard Bible puts it:
Indeed, I was guilty [when I] was born;
I was sinful when my mother conceived me

I find that hard to believe. What sin was David guilty of at the time of his birth?

There is an enormous difference between having a sinful nature and actually sinning.

---I tend to agree, but I still can't believe that God would make life anything but innocent. All my Christian Pro-Life literature calls abortions the killing of INNOCENT life, and I believe them.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Pro-Truth

When a person becomes spiritually born again by Jesus Christ, their entire sinful nature is covered by His blood. Therefore, a born again believer's past, present, and future sins are forgiven.

Hi Pro-Truth,

Where you say a born again believer's past, present, and future sins are forgiven; do you still need to repent for present and future sins?

Thank you,

SbT

[Pro-Truth]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Holman Christian Standard Bible puts it:
Indeed, I was guilty [when I] was born;
I was sinful when my mother conceived me

I find that hard to believe. What sin was David guilty of at the time of his birth?



---I tend to agree, but I still can't believe that God would make life anything but innocent. All my Christian Pro-Life literature calls abortions the killing of INNOCENT life, and I believe them.

lol, Jeff....so, this is where you disagree with the Bible?

There is a simple explanation: every person on the planet is born with a sinful nature. That's all there is to it!

All people are separated from God because of their sinful nature - all people. However, Jesus Christ bridges the gap between sin and God. His blood covers a born again believer's sinful nature; therefore, justifying him/her before God. It's that simple!

Jesus is the answer - not any religious organization of any kind.

[Pro-Truth]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

Hi Pro-Truth,

Where you say a born again believer's past, present, and future sins are forgiven; do you still need to repent for present and future sins?

Thank you,

SbT

Of course! Repentance is not required to obtain eternal life, of course, but, a born again believer will automatically repent for their sins.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Pro-Truth

lol, Jeff....so, this is where you disagree with the Bible?

---Well, do you agree with the Bible where it says that *** literally guided widows from the moment of his birth? (*** 31:18) I prefer to take it less than literally, so it does not result in absurdity--as in that *** was taking care of widows from the time he was old enough and able to do so. Ditto the exaggeration in Psalm 51. But feel free to check out the good explanation I found at Christian Courier and tell me if they are disagreeing with the Bible.

christiancourier.com/articles/793-does-psalm-58-teach-original-sin

Jesus is the answer - not any religious organization of any kind.

--But left on our own, what kind of consistent answer would we see in Jesus? Each person would come up with different Jesuses, and no two Jesuses would be the same...

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Maybe the question should be: What, exactly, gets justified?

a) The sins the person committed up to that point.

b) All the sins you will commit in the future.

c) Both a) and b).

jeff, sins are NOT what's "justified". It's the PERSON who is forensically "justified" in the sight of God.

[Father_JD]

You can like jeff's idea all you like...just know it's in ERROR. Sins aren't "justified", people ARE.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

jeff, sins are NOT what's "justified". It's the PERSON who is forensically "justified" in the sight of God.

--Okay, so (this gets more convoluted as we go): You feel that people can be justified without their sins being justified? What good does that do a person?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--Okay, so (this gets more convoluted as we go): You feel that people can be justified without their sins being justified? What good does that do a person?

Jeff, I think for me the question that Father JD should address is this:

Will God justify a person justified IN his sins, or FROM his sins?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Jeff, I think for me the question that Father JD should address is this:

Will God justify a person justified IN his sins, or FROM his sins?

It's NOT a question of being "justified" or not in either.

[nrajeff]

Do your parishioners ask as perplexing questions as we ask you? Just wondering how far "out there" our questions are compared to what you get from your own congregation.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

It's NOT a question of being "justified" or not in either.

I would hope that if God justifies someone, they are pardoned from their sins. But it is entirely different things to be pardoned 'from' sin as opposed to being pardoned 'in' sin.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

I would hope that if God justifies someone, they are pardoned from their sins. But it is entirely different things to be pardoned 'from' sin as opposed to being pardoned 'in' sin.

That was my whole point, figster: Your equivocation from "justification" to pardon of sins.

Although vitally linked, the two are NOT THE SAME THING as you're trying to make them.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Do your parishioners ask as perplexing questions as we ask you? Just wondering how far "out there" our questions are compared to what you get from your own congregation.

LOL. Don't flatter yourself that they're that "perplexing", but because of Mormon indoctrination which is so at odds with Christian doctrine, you're bound to ask (ahem!) more interesting questions than my parishioners usually did.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. Don't flatter yourself that they're that "perplexing",

--I didn't mean it that way. I was wondering whether they asked questions that were as "weird-seeming" to you--not whether they asked questions that challenged your beliefs as much.

but because of Mormon indoctrination which is so at odds with Christian doctrine, you're bound to ask (ahem!) more interesting questions than my parishioners usually did.

---If you'd care to provide contact info on your congregants, I could help them come up with more "interesting" questions to ask you, if they aren't interesting enough for you...Don't want you to succumb to ennui, you know...

[Father_JD]

LOL. Ri-i-i-ight. Thanks anyway, jeff.

Btw...I have no parishioners presently. I'm working as a ful-time hospital chaplain in the Medical Center, Houston.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. Ri-i-i-ight. Thanks anyway, jeff.
Btw...I have no parishioners presently. I'm working as a ful-time hospital chaplain in the Medical Center, Houston.

---Interesting. If I am ever in the area I will stop by the hospital and say hi.

[Father_JD]

There are over a dozen hospitals in the Medical Center. Should you come to Houston, I will email you privately at which hospital I work.

[nrajeff]

OK, thanks!