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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #201
    Libby
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    When Mormon leaders call themselves "prophets" and claim to speak in the name of Almighty God, they better be held accountable for ALL their embarr***ing, intolerant, and racist comments.
    I don't think so, since LDS prophets never claimed to speak for God 24/7. Not everything they spoke was revelation; Joseph made that clear.

    Plus, I think people like John Calvin were pretty sure that they were being inspired by God, even though they didn't call themselves prophets. Many people, even today, believe that Calvin was inspired in his interpretation of the Bible. Same for Luther and Wesley and many others. My great great Grandfather was a follower of John Wesley, and he sure did believe he was inspired by God.

    There is clearly a double standard being employed by critics of the LDS Church.

  2. #202
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    IBut what is the historical source the quote is taken from?
    That is a direct quote from the temple ceremony. I don't think you will find it in historical LDS sources because of the secrecy.

  3. #203
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    That is a direct quote from the temple ceremony. I don't think you will find it in historical LDS sources because of the secrecy.
    Billy, I suppose you know that hasn't been in the Temple ceremony for years? I would have been in ten years next month and it was long gone, before I converted.

  4. #204
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Billy, I suppose you know that hasn't been in the Temple ceremony for years? I would have been in ten years next month and it was long gone, before I converted.
    I gave you the exact date that it was changed which was 1990. It was there when I went through the temple. BTW because it is not there now does this make it OK in your opinion to portray Christian ministers as hired guns for Lucifer?

  5. #205
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I guess this is your way of letting me know the the proceeds your father has made from smearing the beliefs of others has been kept in the family.

    BJ: NEWS FLASH! WM IS NO LONGER LIVING! And if the money from the sale of WM's book was, " kept in the family" as you so rudely put it, is none of your business! ***osh! If you wrote a book, what would you do with the money earned. The book might have taken you years to finish so does it not make sense to you that you earned every penny? GEESH! WHAT HAVE ALL THE PAST PROPHETS AND APOSTLES OF YOUR CHURCH DONE WITH THE MONIES THEY'VE EARNED FROM THE SALE OF THEIR BOOKS? And WM has been gone for many years now, so what is your major difficulty? He had a family to support, so I guess that is a crime to take care of ones family now?

    WM didn't smear your beloved church, JS did that and the many leaders who followed did it ALL by themselves! WM told the truth about Mormonism's many odd doctrines and that the members follow blindly their Prophet; which does make Mormonism a CULT, plain and simple! A centralized leader who does all the thinking and decision making for its members and by heaven, DON'T EVER question the brethern or you'll end up like James and myself, being thrown out on your ear! Start using the brain and intelligence that God gave you Julie just once in your life.....there's a whole, beautiful world waiting for you. A world without bondage, where you can be free in Christ, and know that no matter what, your name will always be found in the Lamb's Book of Life.
    Last edited by neverending; 11-11-2011 at 09:43 AM.

  6. #206
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Billy, I suppose you know that hasn't been in the Temple ceremony for years? I would have been in ten years next month and it was long gone, before I converted.

    And who gave the President of the Church back in 1990 the right to make changes to the temple ceremony? JS said that it could NEVER be altered or changed! Again, the church bowed to those who complained, the squeaky wheel gets the grease but in truth, the attendance numbers were dropping.

    I will tell you in my experience of going through the temple to be married in 1971, it was the most DISGUSTING, VILE thing I've ever experienced and THIS was my wedding day? The day for a woman to be center of attention and to hold onto beautiful memories of that day but no, all I can remember is taking bloody oaths all the while knowing that my parents were sitting there too and thinking that this was ok? So again, who gave the authority to make even one single little change to the ceremony which was supposedly God given to JS?

  7. #207
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    Interesting point, Billyray. Can you provide a citation pointing to the historical fact that in a Mormon temple ceremony, "lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well?"

    Jill,
    Since the temple ceremony has ALWAYS been secret and members vow not to talk about what goes on inside, there is very little one can find but I did find this:

    " Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, "Joseph Smith received the temple endowment and its ritual, as all else he promulgated, by revelation from God" (Joseph Smith - Seeker After Truth, pg. 249). Because of this, Mormons have been told that it can never change. Royden Derrick, a Mormon Seventy, wrote, "Temple ordinances ins***uted in the heavens before the foundation of the world are for the salvation and exaltation of God's children. It is important that the saving ordinances not be altered or changed, because all of those who will be exalted, from the first man, Adam, to the last, must be saved on the same principles" (Temples in the Last Days, 1987, pg. 36).

    The post that Billy gave you was true, since I and James were married in the Cardston, Alberta, Canada temple and I witnessed these exact events. I found it odd that such a, "sacred" ordinance would include Lucifer. The whole ceremony was disturbing and vile! And to think we traveled over 700 miles to be able to get married and this was supposed to be my beautiful wedding day? Something I've never forgotten.
    This seems quite clear to me that there should never have been any changes to the ceremony when to Mormons it is the highest degree of worship and is what all members work towards.
    Last edited by neverending; 11-11-2011 at 09:43 AM.

  8. #208
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Well that depends on whether you plan on painting your definition of "Christian" with a broad brush, or a narrow brush.
    Careful though, too broad of a brush will include the LDS Church; too narrow of a brush and you might find yourself kicked out of your own Christian club.

    THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO PAINT THE DEFINITION OF CHRISTIAN. Mormonism can claim all day long that they are Christians because after all they believe in Jesus Christ and his name is on everyone of their buildings; but, that does not make one a Christian when one believes Jesus to be something he's not! It's comparing apples to oranges Richard! I will keep pounding this into your head and ALL LDS that, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE! Your Jesus was a created being and was not always God! Your Jesus is the brother of Satan! Your Jesus atoned for man by sweating in the Garden! Can you see NOW that you worship a FALSE Jesus? When you and your leaders will admit that your Jesus is not the Biblical one, then we will have an, "Oh, I should have had a V-8 moment".

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    BJ: NEWS FLASH! WM IS NO LONGER LIVING! And if the money from the sale of WM's book was, " kept in the family" as you so rudely put it, is none of your business!
    My only point was that there is a lot of money to be made in smearing others--sensationalizism and smut.

    Clearly, WM specialized in this art--not just in regards to my faith but the faiths of many others.

    And the irony is that Walter Martin, an evangelical who reads the Bible in English only has the religion or faith he does because of past "heretics' who were often put to death for their heretical positions against the "church" at the time.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 11-11-2011 at 11:11 AM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO PAINT THE DEFINITION OF CHRISTIAN. Mormonism can claim all day long that they are Christians because after all they believe in Jesus Christ and his name is on everyone of their buildings; but, that does not make one a Christian when one believes Jesus to be something he's not! It's comparing apples to oranges Richard! I will keep pounding this into your head and ALL LDS that, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE! Your Jesus was a created being and was not always God! Your Jesus is the brother of Satan! Your Jesus atoned for man by sweating in the Garden! Can you see NOW that you worship a FALSE Jesus? When you and your leaders will admit that your Jesus is not the Biblical one, then we will have an, "Oh, I should have had a V-8 moment".
    I'm sorry I must have missed that definition of a Christian. Can I please get the official version of it, instead of your critic rant? No offense, but your opinion carries no credibility, seeing as though you have been consistently wrong on so many things, like my name ever being Richard.

  11. #211
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I'm sorry I must have missed that definition of a Christian.
    Would you OK with me calling mysel Mormon even though I don't believe in the tenets of Mormonism?

  12. #212
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    My only point was that there is a lot of money to be made in smearing others--
    There is a lot of money to be made by telling someone that Mormonism is the only true church and then telling them that ***hing is required for exaltation.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    There is a lot of money to be made by telling someone that Mormonism is the only true church and then telling them that ***hing is required for exaltation.
    ***hing did not originate with the church, it originated with God and can be found all the way back to the OT.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #214
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    ***hing did not originate with the church, it originated with God and can be found all the way back to the OT.
    And you know full well that ***hing is not required fir the NT church. Can you show me ***hing in the church after the death of Christ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And you know full well that ***hing is not required fir the NT church. Can you show me ***hing in the church after the death of Christ?
    I don't know that full well. Keep in mind, all the commandments of God are voluntary, he "requires' nothing if one does not want to follow Him, that is their choice. But if they say they are followers of Christ, then they should follow Him and they would see it as a requirement they put on themselves.

    P.S. Remember Abraham payed ***hes prior to the Mosaic law.

    Your comment regarding ***hes not being part of the NT is interesting noting that I have "christian" friends who ***he today? If it is not part of the NT church, why do it at all?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  16. #216
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Keep in mind, all the commandments of God are voluntary,
    If I want to be exalted is ***hing optional?

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If I want to be exalted is ***hing optional?
    Whether one wants to follow Christ or not is optional. Once one chooses to follow Christ, it is not optional what that means. In other words, one cannot pick and choose who to follow Christ. He has spoken and his law will not be broken.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  18. #218
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post

    P.S. Remember Abraham payed ***hes prior to the Mosaic law.
    Abraham gave 10% of recovered stolen property and and then gave back the remaining 90%. Hardly a model of ***hing. He was never commanded to ***he and you never see him ***he anywhere else.

    Can you show me where God commands ***hing? Is this before the Law or in the Law?

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Abraham gave 10% of recovered stolen property and and then gave back the remaining 90%. Hardly a model of ***hing. He was never commanded to ***he and you never see him ***he anywhere else.

    Can you show me where God commands ***hing? Is this before the Law or in the Law?
    Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In ***hes and offerings.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  20. #220
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In ***hes and offerings.
    If you notice that this is in the OT under the Law. Why do you think that verse supports your position?

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If you notice that this is in the OT under the Law. Why do you think that verse supports your position?
    As noted, the Mosaic Law started after Abraham who paid ***hes. And as also noted, modern day "christians' still pay ***hes today.

    I will tell you what, why not start a campaign for all parishioners to stop paying ***hing and see how the pastors respond.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And you know full well that ***hing is not required fir the NT church. Can you show me ***hing in the church after the death of Christ?
    You are correct... in the early church they were required to give all they had, I guess they were better at extracting the gold from their members than the LDS Church; we only get 10%.

    But then the LDS Church is actually under the lesser law of ***hing (10%) as were the OT Jews, that's because the early LDS Church failed to fully live the Law of consecration.
    However the Law of Consecration must come back, and the Church must be ready to recieve it.

  23. #223
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I gave you the exact date that it was changed which was 1990. It was there when I went through the temple. BTW because it is not there now does this make it OK in your opinion to portray Christian ministers as hired guns for Lucifer?
    Apologies. I did not see that you had posted the date.

    BTW because it is not there now does this make it OK in your opinion to portray Christian ministers as hired guns for Lucifer?
    I suppose it is as "OK" as calling Joseph Smith (and all of the LDS prophets) agents of Satan, and a gazillion other negative names and inferences.

  24. #224
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Apologies. I did not see that you had posted the date.



    I suppose it is as "OK" as calling Joseph Smith (and all of the LDS prophets) agents of Satan, and a gazillion other negative names and inferences.

    Libby,
    And IF you left the LDS Church, why do you continue to defend it? This is a poor example of a person who has left and I'd like to know whatcaused you to leave Mormonism and where you stand now as far as any religion. We who come to WM do so out of concern for Mormons, knowing that it teaches another gospel and leads people away from God. Just their teaching how they themselves can become a god by following ALL the laws and ordinances of their church is not in anyway Biblical, but how many Mormons are able to follow every law and ordinance? No one can be perfect, for there will be a moment when one will fail and then what?

  25. #225
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    You are correct... in the early church they were required to give all they had, I guess they were better at extracting the gold from their members than the LDS Church; we only get 10%.

    But then the LDS Church is actually under the lesser law of ***hing (10%) as were the OT Jews, that's because the early LDS Church failed to fully live the Law of consecration.
    However the Law of Consecration must come back, and the Church must be ready to recieve it.


    So you think it is ok for the members of your church to live Communism? That is what the Law of Consecration was, everyone to share equally but not everyone, for what of the President of the Church who lived in luxury, owned all the land up City Creek Canyon and owning the Lion House. Did you know BY charged people to go up the canyon to cut down trees? Yes, he most certainly did....great example of brotherly love....NOT! Pres. Monson lives in a condo worth over a million dollars and has a limo with a private driver. Seems he certainly is enjoying the spoils of the giving of your members. What would be wrong with living in a modest home and drive yourself where you need to go?
    Last edited by neverending; 11-14-2011 at 06:56 PM.

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