Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 1017

Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Administrator Jill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    503

    Default Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  2. #2
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.
    Are you using "Christian" in terms of "orthodox Christianity" or Biblical Christianity?

  3. #3
    neverending
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Are you using "Christian" in terms of "orthodox Christianity" or Biblical Christianity?
    db: Orthodox means to be true, and we as Biblical Christians believe what the Bible teaches. So to me, both are the same. Orthodox believe in the Creeds which I have no problems with, for they are scriptural. The Creeds always speak of ONE God, not many. They also believe Christ's atonement was given totally on the cross, not part in the Garden and the rest on the cross as LDS do.

  4. #4
    Sir
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    They also believe Christ's atonement was given totally on the cross, not part in the Garden and the rest on the cross as LDS do.
    Here is a perfect example of what I stated in this thread already. Critics add to the requirements of what it takes to be considered a Christian. Here, neverending is claiming that one MUST believe that the atonement happened TOTALLY on the cross.

    Does the Bible say this? No.

    Here is God according to the critics here:

    God: "Do you believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ?"

    MC (mainstream Christian) & LDS: "Yes"

    God: "That is good, for the power of my Son's atonement is the power unto salvation." "Where did it happen?

    MC: "On the cross."

    LDS: "Both on the cross and in the garden."

    God: "MC, go to Heaven. LDS, go to Hell."

  5. #5
    neverending
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Here is a perfect example of what I stated in this thread already. Critics add to the requirements of what it takes to be considered a Christian. Here, neverending is claiming that one MUST believe that the atonement happened TOTALLY on the cross.

    Does the Bible say this? No.

    Here is God according to the critics here:

    God: "Do you believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ?"

    MC (mainstream Christian) & LDS: "Yes"

    God: "That is good, for the power of my Son's atonement is the power unto salvation." "Where did it happen?

    MC: "On the cross."

    LDS: "Both on the cross and in the garden."

    God: "MC, go to Heaven. LDS, go to Hell."

    Read Romans 5:11 please but know that Christ SHED his blood on the cross. In the Garden it says, his sweat was as it were, great drops of blood. An elephant is as it were a camel, capable of carrying heavy loads. An elephant is not a camel, and blood is NOT sweat!

  6. #6
    Sir
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Read Romans 5:11 please but know that Christ SHED his blood on the cross. In the Garden it says, his sweat was as it were, great drops of blood. An elephant is as it were a camel, capable of carrying heavy loads. An elephant is not a camel, and blood is NOT sweat!
    (I thought you had me on ignore)??

    Anyway, regardless of the blood/ sweat thing, that still doesn't answer to why you have added to the litmus test that one MUST believe it was TOTALLY on the cross to be a Christian.

  7. #7
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    db: Orthodox means to be true, and we as Biblical Christians believe what the Bible teaches.
    No you don't. And you won't fare very well in any attempt to match your salvational doctrines up with the Biblical NT.

    Any religion claiming that there is not the first obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto life has little in common with the Biblical NT.

  8. #8
    neverending
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No you don't. And you won't fare very well in any attempt to match your salvational doctrines up with the Biblical NT.

    Any religion claiming that there is not the first obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto life has little in common with the Biblical NT.

    db: please show me where the Bible teaches that I must first have obedience to Jesus before I can be saved. John 3:16 doesn't say anything about obedience, it just says, "that whosoever BELIEVES...." nothing about obedience. Also, "for all have sinned and fallen short" Romans 3:23. ALL means ALL, not just a few but ALL...that includes YOU dberrie. God's free gift of salvation is available to anyone who so desires to believe in Him, and salvation to me is not resurrection but Eternal Life! LDS have several types of salvation so when you're discussing with a Christian, you now know what we mean when salvation is mentioned. The LDS hide the meanings from the unsuspecting convert, why do you have to do that?

  9. #9
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    db: please show me where the Bible teaches that I must first have obedience to Jesus before I can be saved.
    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

    John 3:16 doesn't say anything about obedience, it just says, "that whosoever BELIEVES...." nothing about obedience.
    Please do show where obedience to Jesus Christ is not an integral component of belief.

    Whenever one sees terms such as belief, faith, trust, etc--obedience to Christ is understood as an integral component.

    For example:

    Term--house

    Integral components: roof, walls, foundation, windows, etc.

    Word term: car

    Integral components: Engine, transmission, seats, wheels, etc.

    Word term: belief

    Integral components: trust, obedience, following Christ, faith, etc.

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


    Also, "for all have sinned and fallen short" Romans 3:23. ALL means ALL, not just a few but ALL...that includes YOU dberrie. God's free gift of salvation is available to anyone who so desires to believe in Him, and salvation to me is not resurrection but Eternal Life!
    Me also. When I state salvation--that means eternal life.

    Yes, I sin. And that is the reason God has given us repentance and water baptism:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    If Eternal Life were free--why was everyone commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

    Eternal Life, as an opportunity is a free gift to all men--but the personal reception of Life is dependent upon obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto life.

    1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."


    LDS have several types of salvation so when you're discussing with a Christian, you now know what we mean when salvation is mentioned. The LDS hide the meanings from the unsuspecting convert, why do you have to do that?
    I'm not hiding anything--when we talk about salvation--eternal life is my point. Why would I "hide" any other meaning?

  10. #10
    neverending
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"



    Please do show where obedience to Jesus Christ is not an integral component of belief.

    Whenever one sees terms such as belief, faith, trust, etc--obedience to Christ is understood as an integral component.

    For example:

    Term--house

    Integral components: roof, walls, foundation, windows, etc.

    Word term: car

    Integral components: Engine, transmission, seats, wheels, etc.

    Word term: belief

    Integral components: trust, obedience, following Christ, faith, etc.

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."




    Me also. When I state salvation--that means eternal life.

    Yes, I sin. And that is the reason God has given us repentance and water baptism:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    If Eternal Life were free--why was everyone commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

    Eternal Life, as an opportunity is a free gift to all men--but the personal reception of Life is dependent upon obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto life.

    1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."




    I'm not hiding anything--when we talk about salvation--eternal life is my point. Why would I "hide" any other meaning?
    db: your last sentence is not true! There are many terms LDS use for salvation. Your doctrines teach a general salvation which is given to ALL men because that is only resurrection. You also teach in a personal salvation or individual or conditional and you call it, exaltation. This salvation comes by grace PLUS baptism plus works. Talmadge says in your Articles of Faith, "Redemption from personal sins can ONLY be obtained through obedience to the requirement of the Gospel and a life of good works." Now think about the thief of the cross as he was dying. Thank God, Christ was there and not Mr. Talmage, or the thief would have been forever lost. This man never did anything good or why would he be called a thief but he DID BELIEVE in Christ and nothing else. No works, no baptism, just belief!

    This obedience idea comes only from your doctrines. To be saved requires one thing; BELIEF in Christ. Again, John 3:16. And answer me this, who is EVER obedient? Who EVER does good? We are all sinners so we will fail at some point no matter how hard we try to be a good person....it is part of our sin nature which we can not change. If you fails in ONE POINT, YOU ARE GUILTY OF ALL! (James 2:10) Even ONE failure will condemn you or I but having been saved through the SHED blood of Jesus Christ, I now have been wrapped in His righteousness and that is what God will see when someday I stand before Him. My wish is for all LDS to understand this concept and be saved. God bless and have a good day today.

  11. #11
    Sir
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    db: please show me where the Bible teaches that I must first have obedience to Jesus before I can be saved. John 3:16 doesn't say anything about obedience, it just says, "that whosoever BELIEVES...." nothing about obedience.
    Taht's it? All you have to do is believe? Even the devil believes. And here, too, is this sleight of hand, where the critic says, "The Bible only says to believe and you are saved, nothing about obedience." THe LDS then respond that they believe in Jesus. Then the critic then starts the litnay of conditions, qualifications, and variables that are also required in order to claim you believe in the right Jesus.


    The LDS hide the meanings from the unsuspecting convert, why do you have to do that?

    The critics hide the meaning of "believe in Jesus" and do not reveal all of the other details that they claim are required for salvation. Why do you have to do that?

  12. #12
    Sir
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.
    Really?

    You can prove that Romney specifically does not believe in jesus Christ as his savior and redeemer?

    Have at it.

    Amazing that you have the power to judge another man's heart.

  13. #13
    Administrator Jill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    503

    Default

    dberrie,

    More than 2000 years of Christian history shows that the iden***y of Jesus is the same as it was during the time he walked this earth. That is biblical and historical truth. Christianity never disappeared from the earth; Joseph Smith Jr. just decided to redefine it.

    Sir,

    Once again, we are back to definitions. Even Brigham Young stated that Mormonism was NOT the same as historic Christianity.

    Try leaving emotion at the door and argue theology and history.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    I am going to ask all of the Mormon posters on here--and any poster for that matter, to read 2 Timothy chapter 2. In fact, it is good to read all of 2 Timothy--then pray about it and decide if you still want to post here.

    Jill wants to define our faith in Jesus Christ for us. She wants to define Mitt Romney's faith for him. I say, let us all act according to what we read and pray about and act on that.

    2Ti 2:16-17 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker...

    And I hope that those who vote for our president, do so with prayer.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  15. #15
    Administrator Jill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Big Julie,

    Once again, please leave politics and voting out of this thread.

    Stick to evidence from history, and if you can't prove anything, feel free to "shun" this thread.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  16. #16
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I am going to ask all of the Mormon posters on here--and any poster for that matter, to read 2 Timothy chapter 2. In fact,it is good to read all of 2 Timothy--then pray about it and decide if you still want to post here.

    Jill wants to define our faith in Jesus Christ for us. She wants to define Mitt Romney's faith for him. I say, let us all act according to what we read and pray about and act on that.

    2 Timothy 2:16-17 But shun profane [and] vain babblings:for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker...

    And I hope that those who vote for our president,do so with prayer.

    Yes it's truly frightening


    “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

  17. #17
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post

    Yes it's truly frightening
    What is truly frightening?

  18. #18
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default

    Here's a good article BigJulie

    Mormons not Christian? That's a fallacy of equivocation Published:Thursday,Oct. 20,2011 5:00 a.m. MDT By Daniel C. Peterson,For the Deseret News

  19. #19
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Here's a good article BigJulie
    Here is a quote.

    "Critics often accuse us of deceptively claiming to be traditional Christians, and puzzled outsiders sometimes ask why we claim to be Christians while rejecting certain doctrines and traditional creeds."


    We know that you guys don't claim to be traditional Christians. Why would you because you believe in different gods, a different gospel, and you believe that you can become a god which is foreign to traditional Christianity.

  20. #20
    Libby
    Guest

    Default

    I read that article awhile back. It's a good one. I always read Dr. Peterson's articles. They're almost always insightful.

    Excerpt:

    After endorsing Rick Perry at the "Values Voter Summit" earlier in October, Baptist pastor Robert Jeffress defended his denunciation of Mormonism with a pretty typical specimen of equivocating language: Mitt Romney, he said, is "not a Christian" because he "doesn't embrace historical Christianity."

    His denunciation presumes, falsely, that "Christianity" and "historical Christianity" (the Christianity defined at Nicea and other councils) are synonymous, and that to reject the latter entails rejecting the former, too.

  21. #21
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I read that article awhile back. It's a good one. I always read Dr. Peterson's articles. They're almost always insightful.
    "Critics often accuse us of deceptively claiming to be traditional Christians"

    Libby do you think this statement Danny is insightful or deceptive?

  22. #22
    Libby
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    "Critics often accuse us of deceptively claiming to be traditional Christians"

    Libby do you think this statement Danny is insightful or deceptive?
    It's truthful. It's very common for Christians to accuse Mormons of trying to "appear" mainstream. There is often talk about how the church deceives people by trying to look like "traditional" Christianity.

    But, the bottomline is that Mormonism gets rejected by some, in traditional Christianity, based on criteria and standards from traditional Christianity, which LDS have never claimed. That does not, however, exclude LDS from the broader umbrella of Christianity.

  23. #23
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    It's truthful. It's very common for Christians to accuse Mormons of trying to "appear" mainstream. There is often talk about how the church deceives people by trying to look like "traditional" Christianity.
    The whole reason that Christians say that Mormons are not Christian is because they don't resemble any of the mainstream Christian churches and doctrine.

  24. #24
    Libby
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The whole reason that Christians say that Mormons are not Christian is because they don't resemble any of the mainstream Christian churches and doctrine.
    That's not really true. There are plenty of parallels. Some Christians just do not wish to acknowledge them.

  25. #25
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    That's not really true. There are plenty of parallels. Some Christians just do not wish to acknowledge them.
    Come on Libby who do you think you are kidding?

    If Mormonism was close to Christianity then Christianity would welcome them but they don't and the reason they don't is because Mormonism teaches a completely different gospel and a completely different god.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •